First order/Time Phase-Coherent speakers discussions


"The game is done! I’ve won! I’ve won!"


I would like to use this thread to talk about this subject which I find rather fascinating and somewhat difficult to get my hands on. I went through a course in electromagnetism in college and I have to say this is even more confusing and you won’t find the answer in calculus, physics, Einstein relativity be damned it’s not in there either and definitely not in quantum physics. Listening to the "experts" from Vandersteens and Stereophile but ultimately it all came down to a missing link sort of argument ... something like this:
"Since if a speaker can produce a step response correctly, therefore it is time-phase coherent, and therefore it must be "good".

It’s like saying humans come from chimps since they share 90% genetic content with us, but we can’t find any missing links or evidence. FYI, we share a lot of gene with the corn plants as well. Another argument I’ve heard from John Atkinson that lacks any supporting evidence and he said that if everything else being equal, time-phase coherence tends to produce a more coherent and superior soundstage, but to the best of my knowledge, nobody has been able to produce some semblance of evidence since there is no way to compare apples to apples. Speaker "A" may have better soundstage simply because it’s a BETTER design, and the claim "time-phase coherent" is just a red herring. There’s no way one can say the "goodness" from "time-phase coherence" because you can’t compare apples to apples. Ultimately it’s a subjective quantification.

I’ve been doing some simulation and I will post some of my findings with graphs, plots, actual simulation runs so that we are discussing on subjective personal opinions. Some of my findings actually shows that intentionally making time-phase may result in inferior phase problem and NOT better! (will be discussed more in detail).

Having said all that, I am actually in favor of first order/time-phase coherent if POSSIBLE. I am not in favor of time-phase coherence just for the sake of it. It’s just that there are a lot of mis-information out there that hopefully this will clear those out. Well hopefully ...

Here my preliminary outline:

1. My "subjective" impression of what is "musicality" and how it’s related to first order filters.
2. Interpretation of step-response. I’ve read a lot of online writing with regard to the interpretations but I think a lot of them are wrong. A proper interpretation is presented with graphs and simulations.
3. A simulation of an 1st order and higher order filters with ideal drivers and why time-phase coherence is only possible with 1st order filter. This part will use ideal drivers. The next part will use real world drivers.
4. A simulation with actual drivers and how to design a 1st order/time phase coherent speaker. Discuss pros and cons. And why time-phase coherence may actually have phase issues.
5. Discuss real world examples of time-phase coherence with Thiel’s and Vandersteens speakers (and why I suspect they may not ultimately be time-phase coherent in the strictest sense).
6. I’ll think of something real to say here ... :-)
andy2
@andy2     Not sure that there is a question here.  I've run many simulations with 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th order slopes.  I've run many comparisons with butterworth and linkwitz riley in 2nd and 4th order.  

Even putting a single cap on a part does not ensure that you'll end up with 6db per octave.  And really isn't the closest thing that you can get to proper phasing coming all the way around with 4th order slopes?  
1st order are normally at minimum 15 degrees out of phase. 4th order can be very close.  
I'd recommend physically time aligning your drivers then comparing your slopes.  I've had surprisingly good results in soundstage and imaging running odd order butterworth (say 12/18) as well as linkwitz riley 4th order.  Both of these solve issues with driver peaks also.  
again not sure that these comments are what you are after, but I hope they help,  Tim 
Hi Tim,

I agree with what you said.  Putting a cap on a tweeter for example does not mean a first order 6db/octave.  The best I can hope for is 6db/octave in a limited frequency range.  I think speakers from Thiel and Vandersteens that "claimed" to be first order, but it's an approximate, but I don't want to say too much here.  And as you said, there are more than time-phase coherence.  There are many ways to design a good pair of speakers.  And I won't argue personal preferences.  I will present an "objective" point of view: here is what first order/time phase coherence.  Whether which one is better is not up to me.

I took me a lot of works and a lot and lot more thinking to put together what I think is a comprehensive and meaningful discussion of first order / time phase coherence approach that I don't think I saw anywhere on the web.  As I said, there are just too many misinformation out there.   Some people ought to pay me lols.  It costs me a good life!

Also I am not really looking to argue with anyone here.  I will present my case, and it's up to you.  I suspect more will end up disagreeing with me than agreeing :-)


Time cohesion is a myth. If the tweeter was hundreds of metres behind the woofer then youd hear a delay. The actual distance involved is within about 1cm so obviously theres no delay that can be heard. 
I'd argue with Kenjit, but that would involve science, and engineering, and that's a myth, or mumbo jumbo or something.