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2000-2500 USD budget for an integrated amplifier. Do amplifiers sound the same? :)

Hey guys!

My first post here! Great community here!

I recently bought a pair of Klipsch Forte III and I’m thinking about upgrading my current budget amplifier Cambridge CXA60. My budget is around 2500 USD. I hope you guys can give me a few insights. Cheers!


Current setup:

  • Macbook Pro
  • Network streamer + DAC: Chord Mojo + Poly
  • Amplifier: Cambridge CXA60 (60 watt)
  • Speakers: Klipsch Forte III, 99db sensitivity
  • Subwoofer: Klipsch R-115SW
  • The room is pretty small: 4*6 meters (roughly 13*19 ft) but very well acoustically treated (I covered all the power corners with GIK acoustics bass Tritraps and Soffit + complete acoustic treatment on early reflection points

The Cambridge amp sounds nice with the Fortes but I feel like I’m missing out on something. I don’t know what "something" actually, since I haven’t paired the Fortes with anything yet but the Cambridge.

So the crucial question is: should I upgrade?

I’ve been considering integrated amps like the Rotel RA 1592 and the Peachtree nova300.

I know that it’s kind of an overkill to drive the Forte III with respectively 200 watts (Rotel) and 300 watts (Peachtree).

However knowing myself, I might upgrade the whole system (speakers included) in like 4-5 years or so. And it might be nice to have a capable high powered amp around (with lots of power headroom) so I won’t need to spend further capital again on a new amplifier in a few years.

On the other hand, I feel like I’m wasting quite a bit of money buying a powerful integrated amplifier right now. At the end of the day the Cambridge CXA60’s got 60 watt and it is more than sufficient to drive the Forte III.

This leads to another thing that’s bugging me… The sound quality of an amplifier! People like Ethan Wiener argue in a very convincing way that when compared evenly, the sonic differences between amplifiers operated below clipping are below the audible threshold of human hearing.

This guy summarized this view here:

https://jakekuyser.wordpress.com/2016/05/23/do-hi-fi-amplifiers-sound-alike/


Furthermore I’ll most probably have Sonarworks room digital EQ correction toggled on all the time to remove all the equipment unwanted colorations. These colorations might sound nice, but I’m more of a "I want to hear what the artist intended" type of a listener.

(((To me Sonarworks was an eye opener when I first used it to calibrate my Sennheiser HD800.

https://www.pro-tools-expert.com/home-page/2017/8/24/headphone-shootout-sennheiser-hd800-vs-hd800s

It made me think about the extreme amount of the self delusion nature in the audiophile community. Many audiophiles rave about the alleged flat response of the HD800 when there are indisputable peaks at 5,5kHz and 11kHz, plus very very weak bass. Without correction they’re almost annoying to me and they definitely do not deliver what the artist/sound engineers intended. However, these cans are very often just described as extremely revealing, clinical, unforgiving… which eventually led to the claim that the HD800 is picky regarding the amp…)))

Questions:

  1. So considering that I’ll most probably have Sonarworks room digital EQ correction toggled on all the time to remove all the equipment unwanted colorations, do you guys still think that I might be able to get a "better" sound by upgrading the Cambridge to a more powerful amp, like the the Rotel RA 1592 and the Peachtree nova300?
  2. Is it worth to spend 2000-2500 USD more for this? Or should I use this money for a better DAC or a network streamer?

Sorry guys for this long post!

Cheers,

Egoq


egoquaero
roberjerman
4,319 posts
 
If you want a better or "different" sound - change your speakers - not the electronics!
jbhiller's avatar
jbhiller
1,361 posts
 
I own the Forte IIIs.  I’ve mated them with both SS and vacuum tubes.  They reveal differences in amplification and source well.  

On the solid state end, they sounded way better TO ME with a musical and powerful Creek Evolution 100, but a bit boring with the revered NAD M22.  I chalked that up to synergy and musicality of the amp. The Creek is Class A for the first 20 or so watts and then has Class G up to 170 watts into 4 ohm (can’t recall its 8 ohm figure). 

On the tube end, I pair them with a PrimaLuna Dialogue Premium HP, Elekit 300B, and an EL34 kit amp.  I have a large room and enjoy the power of the PrimaLuna with the Fortes. But if I’m heading off to the audiophile desert island and could take one tube amp it would be the Elekit 300B. 

Your your sounds perfect fir the Elekit but that amp, while capable of spectacular things, is not laden with features and to get the best from it you need to do the upgrade options for transformers and caps. 

If if I were you I’d be prepared for unexpected results with SS.  That doesn’t mean you can’t get great sound with SS. Would you believe the low end slam from an 8 watt amp sounds better and more realistic than when I pushed hundreds of clean watts at the Fortes with the NAD M22? And boy that M22 is a great amp! 

The good news is you have a fun journey ahead that only your ears in your room can be the jury!

For my ears, I can’t run the Fortes without tubes in the chain somewhere. A SS amp can be great but I need a tube DAC or tube phono to get to Oz. 

The Forte IIIs ate wonderful. If you feel something’s missing I think experiment until you find it. I heard a ton of stuff at Axpona and in my view the Fortes can sound spellbinding with the right setup. 
roberjerman
4,319 posts
 
Regarding tube amps: unless they have an output impedance BELOW 1 ohm they will have a non-flat response when coupled to a speaker with a non-flat impedance curve (most of them). Ohm's Law applies here - not the untutored blather of the typical "golden ears" audiophiles!
Post removed 
egoquaero OP
7 posts
 

Thanks to everybody for your insights!!

One clarification: I'm not claiming that all the amps sound the same. From my understanding, amps do sound different. However different doesn't mean better. Given certain circumstances (for instance, a sufficient wattage, no distortion, flat response, etc.) many many amps sound RIGHT/CORRECT for a certain set of speakers. And furthermore we need to consider my intention of using digital EQ room correction which will probably reduce the difference between amps even more. So here's the heart of my concern:

  1. Does it make sense to spend 2500 USD for a sound that's slightly different (and not necessarily better) switching from a "right/correct" Cambridge CXA60 sound to another "right/correct" Rotel RA 1592 or Hegel H160 sound? I honestly think that might not be totally worth it. And hence my decisional process of getting an overkill amplifier for my current Forte III, so that this amp will be futureproof as well. Does this thinking make sense to you?
  2. I noticed that many of you suggested me to get a tube amplifier. I'm not sure if this would be what I need most. I don't doubt that tube amplifiers might be more ear pleasing. But… Me and my brother produce music. He's got a set of studio monitors but often we need to check our work on this Klipsch Forte III hifi system. So it'd be good for us to have a system with the lowest distortion and flattest response possible. So considering this, should I still keep tube amplifiers in my evaluation?

Ethan Wiener claims tube amplifiers have higher distortions:

"Myth: Amplifiers based on vacuum tubes sound better than solid state designs, and a good tube preamp can even restore clarity and warmth that has been lost in the digital recording process.

Fact: Both types of amplifiers can have a frequency response flat enough for audio reproduction. But modern solid state amplifiers have measurably lower distortion than any tube-based design. Most tube-based power amplifiers also require an output transformer, which increases distortion - especially at the frequency extremes. Further, solid state power amps always have a better damping factor"

 

 


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