Talk but not walk?


Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio

Hi Glupson

"When it comes to Michael Green’s speakers"

Thanks for your comments. Having the website and TuneLand has been a wonderful way to get to know listeners and the sounds they may be wanting to go after. I'm not sure ads, shows and reviews have quite the same impact as they once did, ads and reviews for sure. Word of mouth from owners have been a big part of my speaker biz. The reviews were nice and a welcome starting point, but since those days, recommendations from owners has been the biggest seller for me.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

"I gave the website a quick once over and I did not find it particularly informative though the unified focus on "tuning" is unique. Needs some work IMHO."

Hi mapman, when you went to the site did you also visit the forum? I don’t want the site to get too crowded but I also don’t want to have it too vague. 2 years ago we started to redo sections and are thinking about doing some unique stuff. I’m glad the theme came through for you which is the main thing. I want people to be able to see that tuning happens start to finish. It was also important to build up the forums (started in 2004), that’s the proof in the pudding. Seeing short write ups and pics is cool but actually seeing the listeners doing the tune is the key, and that’s what the forum does.

thanks for taking the time to look and to give your opinion

This last year couple of years we have had a renaissance in tuning and making something relatable is very important to me. It takes a lot of effort to get something like audio tuning documented, and the Tunees have done a fantastic job of sharing their systems with us. It's been an intense and thorough labor of love, but every day I see more work that needs to be done.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Glupson

I spend a lot of time thinking about the words I want to use at times and other times they just kind of fall out like they were meant to be, like RoomTune. SAM and Laminar Flow were two that came with a little more effort. What helped me with Laminar flow was a visit to the space shuttle lab. The particular things they were asking me about was demoed by a display of Laminar flow over a huge surface. The connection was enough for me to use the term comfortably.

Because I have been the starter of some of these things in HEA I try to come up with names that one stick, and two have a tie to the actual event.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Prof

"How would you describe the difference in sound between the Vishay 1813 (yellow) and the ERO 1822? 3.3 of course."


"I wouldn’t describe the sonic difference between those two caps, as I do not presume, without hearing more reason to think so, that they would sound different. (Not that I couldn’t be convinced they could produce sonic differences)"

Thank you for your answer.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Bill333, this is a very good post!

"@prof 

"bill333 can you give us a non-mystical, technical explanation for how removing the chassis top of a component would cause those audible differences (or releasing of the capacitor)?"


I have no technical explanations for this, and no interest in finding any. There may be people out there who enjoy observing scientifically unexplained phenomena and constructing theories to fit them, but that's not the hobby I'm engaged in. I'm trying to create great music listening experiences. Simply put, I don't see how having a well explained system is going to give me better sound. OTOH, if you have practical ideas on how to get better sound from my system, I'd be glad to hear them...

"(BTW, I’ve had the top off some of my equipment before - pre-amps etc - for different reasons and...no...it did not change the sound)."


There could be any number of factors involved in your not hearing a change in sound. Without being there to hear for myself, and subsequent experimenting with your system and room, I really can't say what happened. The most likely explanation is that some component or components in your system are closed down to the point that upstream changes can't easily be heard.

But let's get to the point of your post. You're not here to help people get better sound. Having read through your posts on this thread, I can't find a single instance of you doing or saying anything that would help another person improve their system. You're here to cast aspersions on anyone whose methods who don't fit into your mental model of how things work. Let me be clear in saying that my experiences are my own, and are posted here in the hope that others can benefit from them. These are things that have worked for me. If you, or anyone reading this, tries these methods and benefits from them, I am genuinely happy about that. If you choose not to try, that's ok too. But I have no interest in trying to fit my experiences into your dogmatic belief system."

_____________________________________________________

This is very true and very powerful. It's how I felt about Prof saying he needed to be convinced that things sound different. Prof that's not on anyone but you. I found out this stuff about caps in particular when I was in my early teens. I found out because I did it and watched others do the same thing. Maybe there's a mental need for some to go through the exercises they do, but "walking" is about the actual doing and applying the doing. Some of you guys who are spinning here are never going to enter the hobby that some of us are talking and doing. That's the point of this OP. If you choose not to hear the difference or can only understand it by looking at a chart or screen that's one hobby (and very legit) but that's a different hobby. When you guys start shouting (and most of the time with anger) VooDoo that really only tells the listening world that you haven't reached the level of empirical testing.

BTW the Tunees who have been up here so far are EEs, Doctors, Musicians, Reviewers and heavy duty listening explorers. I don't think any of us would put down another's path to successful listening. I can say this because we believe in the variables of the hobby. Again it's like the OP is saying, there are those that walk and others that talk. The ones that walk are more than happy to help those through the first few steps into the bigger world of tuning the variables, but when someone can't hear the difference between caps, and questions that there is a difference it kind of spoils the desire to jump in to the mental state with them.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net