Talk but not walk?

Hi glupson and Guys

Thanks for the post. Btw the folks that are wanting to argue on this thread or any other have a different agenda than the OP. With that, we can skip over those posts and move on, try to come to an understanding, jump in and ask them to stop or wait till they give us space to discuss the OP. Anyone’s guess is as good as anyone else’s to know how to deal with trolling. Every time I get trolled on here, I thank my lucky stars I have TuneLand.

There’s a huge importance to exploring and not just taking guesses about music, audio, recording and playback. I can bring up literally tons of topics to use as a discussion tool, and with those based on the answers or comments made you can tell whether a person has done something or not. Keep in mind that everyone on the planet has their own taste, so there is no right or wrong way to listen, but that doesn’t mean that there isn’t more to be heard. It only means we have chosen to go to a certain level of listening. How do you know?

Recordings have a real space and real size to them. For example, lets say we setup a microphone in the isle of the concert hall while recording so we can add the hall sound to the close up and direct mics. In my case I usually did the direct miking, an over head miking, a mid hall miking and a couple of mics way in the back. Sometimes I would do 3 halos and other times 4, very common no brains miking. During the mix I can then choose how much depth and girth I wanted to give to the piece. If you’ve "done" this a few hundred times you instinctively learn how the halos were shaped by other engineers. Now the recording console, pre effect, doesn’t know anything but a 360 view of what is going on. That’s why when you are listening to headphones the sound is all around you when wearing non-directional cans. Now your going to notice something with these cans (unless they’ve been tweaked a certain way). There are no blacks holes in the soundstage. The sound covers the entire stage 360, that’s what a recording is. When we start using stereo in a room with the speakers in front of us instead of directly at the ear on either side we create that frontal image. It is the recording, but it is the recording reacting to the room and speakers. In other words, you are actually hearing the pressure in the room being stimulated by the speakers and not the speakers themselves (their just the origin). When you hear folks say "there is a black space between the instruments" that’s not what the recording is doing, that’s what the system is doing to the recording. The system is not connecting the dots, it’s not giving you the whole recording, it’s giving you parts and pieces. If the speakers and system is working with the room there is an easy way to tell. Any recording you put on will do this if you are hearing the recording itself. Put on a recording, hit play, and you will instantly hear and feel pressure behind you as if you were outside walking into a room and feeling the rooms pressure all around you. If you only see the stage in front of you and don’t sense the recording pressure around you (it has a sound too), your not playing the whole recording, or even close.

Any of you guys, put on a recording you like where you can feel the sound all around you as if the speakers weren’t even there. Now play what you think is a sub par recording. First thing you will notice is the "so so" recording is not giving you that presence. It’s not the recording. All recordings have that 360 element to them. There’s no way to remove it. Even a very compressed recording will still give you that 360 effect. As has been mentioned earlier some folks can play that music in the car and it sounds acceptable, and put it on their home system and not as good. Folks, it’s not the recording. Recordings don’t dumb themselves down to play in a car or headphones and not in your home. It’s also not that your system is more "revealing". The fact is if your car can play it and your headphones can play it, your home stereo should be able to play it. If your in room system is more revealing than your car and your headphones you will hear more not less.

That’s going to make some of you mad and for some even go into denial, but that’s reality.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

PS: don’t shoot me I’m only telling you guys the reality, ok

Hi Nonoise

Yep, we have a no trolling policy on our forum and to be honest people would look pretty foolish trolling TuneLand. TuneLand is 100% empirical.

There's a few examples on here that happen a lot on HEA forums that don't happen on ours and others, and sometimes I wonder why folks haven't yet got past them.

here's a biggie

I see a lot on here where people will call a recording "bad" (I'm not talking about performers) and they say their system is revealing instead of saying their system can't play that recording. It's like they can't take responsibility for their sound. Empirically speaking, if a recording doesn't sound good that's an indication that the recording and system are out of tune with each other, and there's a need to put them in tune. It surprises me that folks don't get that many times.

In fact I'm interested to hear folks response to that on this thread, and maybe I can even convince some of our guys to respond.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi fsonicsmith

Wow that must have been a long time ago. Good to here from you. Could you imagine actually building them. I would think that months after we talked is when I came out with the tunable speakers. I took everything I learned from those types of stands and made them into speakers. Now, many years later, the speakers are very much like musical instruments. Very light weight and of course tunable.

It was a fun and interesting learning curve coming from the recording and performance world to HEA. What I didn't know was how needy the market was for tunable products. In music making so many things are about tuning, and when I opened my first HEA shop in the early 80's it was somewhat weird to me that the listener knew so little about tuning. But I didn't act on it until RoomTune (sorta-kinda). I would say about the time that the Chameleon came out is when the big picture became more clear. You obviously talked to me during that creative learning curve time. Also keep in mind I was still on tour while going through my first couple of RoomTune years. The folks I worked with in music encouraged me not to mix HEA with recording. They felt that my credibility in the pro world would be damaged if I hung out with the high end geeks. That was just their perception at the time.

"Van Gough's Starry Night or Da Vinci's Mona Lisa?"

I'm a Picasso guy.

Every piece of music is a huge canvas, much bigger than what we play on most systems. I'm into real size real space, that I have carried with me from my recording days and doing sound for the Atlanta Symphony. I've also designed a few concert halls and studios of my own since we last talked so I'm sure me, as a student, has changed quite a bit. As far as Tuning there are now over 100,000 RoomTuners and a few thousand Tunees, so that's different as well. I work with about 400 active ones.

as far as Geoff

Even though Geoff's job and my job come from two different paths and Geoff's personality and mine are quite different I've come to appreciate Geoff's commitment to his calling. I believe Geoff fits in these HEA forums more than I do. I come here to convert folks to tuning and to allow people hunting for me to find me. I kind of dropped out of HEA in "97". One I had saturated my market here for RoomTune and two I had some really good offers from SUNY to design a music wing for them, some big studios, move to Nashville (working with their studios) and work with Herman Miller. I kept a smaller factory going but pulled my ads from the HEA. HEA stalled and started to decline and I didn't want to get stuck in that trend. When the mom and pop HEA stores went under that changed things for a lot of folks, many of whom simply folded up their tents.

So, lumping me in with Geoff is a bit of a stretch. But, I think you guys don't realize how similar you and Geoff are. When I read these threads I don't really see much of a difference with the exception that Geoff is wittier than anyone on these pages when it comes to a trolling contest. You should just face it, Geoff is part of the AGon fabric. And Geoff is no dummy. Geoff studies the hobby and science. I've seen Geoff misstep and the very next debate learn from what he didn't know and use it in that next debate. You guys may not realize his ability to learn because you are too busy getting beatup by him, but I've watched him absorb facts about audio and share them. I disagree with Geoff on a few issues but believe if I was with him in a room tuning it would be fun. I also believe if he ever came over to the totally tunable side, he would be deadly at changing this hobby. No one in audio forum talk today is more persistent than Geoff.

I think you guys can and have learned a lot from Geoff. I know I have tried (I think) every thing he asked me to try when we were on Stereophile at the same time. BTW I did not enjoy Geoff at all on Stereophile and couldn't believe they let him post there. And if I became the target of Geoff's on this forum I would say bye, see you next year. I don't like tension type interchanges and Geoff is the master at creating tension. I'm very thankful to him for not drawing his target on my back this time. And you have to admit he really knows how to get you guys panties in a bunch.

OK this was too long winded but fun.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi cleeds

Here's a good example

"Oh no, that’s completely mistaken. "Empirical" means based on observation - as opposed to based on theory. What you’re talking about here is theory. If a recording sounds bad on my system, that’s empirical, based on my listening (observation).

There are many bad - even very bad - recordings. That alone is hardly an indication that these audio systems need "tuning."

cleeds

This is what I'm talking about. Your saying "Oh no" but your not basing that on "doing" anything about the bad sound. What if we were able to take that "bad recording" and make your system so it sounded good or even excellent?

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi cleeds

It's only theory until you do it, and then my friend it becomes science. But like the OP (me) is saying is, your choosing not to make your system play it.

As a reference I conducted this empirical testing for Stereophile, TAS and maybe 50 other magazines. We took a recording they claimed to be "bad" and after tuning their system to the recording they reversed their findings of the recording. Look up Tom Miiller of TAS when we did this with "Selling England by the pound" and "the Final cut". I've also done (as in "walk") this with Harry Pearson and several thousands of clients. In fact we do this on a regular bases and every day.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

"In some cases, like many expensive esoteric tweaks, there is little or no empirical information offered by anyone, including vendors. Why should people try that?"

Hi Mapman

If I was a client not the vendor, I wouldn’t trust most of HEA. HEA should be further along in their listening, and how to get there, than they are. It’s not just the tweaks, it’s big time with the components and speakers.

Once a listener finds the path of progression, making the system respond isn’t that hard. What is hard is listening to all the hype and half baked theories.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi brf

I'm just going to go with this for now.

"a supposition or a system of ideas intended to explain something, especially one based on general principles independent of the thing to be explained."

I know it's a wide brush, but it's an accepted one. But, your words may be much better than mine and it's totally fine with me if you want to substitute. I'm a "do" guy so please excuse my lack of vocabulary.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Mapman

It’s a journey and all of have that built in desire for the sound we want.

Ever read someone talk about a recording on here calling it terrible, and you’ve played that same recording on your setup and it sounds great? That’s one of the places HEA got itself stuck. In some ways and with some people it’s an angry hobby, but the thing is it doesn’t have to be.

If we took the collective sound of everyone on this forum and put us all together we would find that there are very few "bad" recordings. Someone somewhere is listening to "that" recording and it sounds fantastic. So the question is "why doesn’t it sound great on every system". The answer to this has been out there for many years, but when you have a hobby that is not flexible enough everyone is hearing that recording differently and disagreeing on it’s performance. HEA has become too discrete. The systems are so stuck in their sound they only play a certain range of recordings. But here’s the thing, we will either turn every thread into and argument or we will learn to tune our systems.

Thanks for your posts I'm excited about reading more.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

cleeds

Your making an issue when there isn't one buddy. I'm totally hip with observation. Your getting hung up on nothingness.

"Definition of science for English Language Learners. : knowledge about or study of the natural world based on facts learned through experiments and observation."

Looks like it's going to be a long boring thread of webster-izing.

I do know one thing about your system, you think I'm judging it, and maybe even judging you, wrong tree. I appreciate you input.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net 

Hi trelja

Excellent post!!!

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi cleeds & kosst

One thing that I hope you guys and others learn about me is, I’m a sponge. I love learning a little bit more from all you guys every day I can make it up here. My mind is all about the variables of audio, it has been since I was a little kid. I have never looked at another listener as wrong. To me you guys are the masters of your own hobby. The only thing I do that may be a little different is explore on more of an extreme level. Almost every day of my life has either been in the studio, on tour, in my listening rooms or shops, and your listening rooms (generally speaking). Go read a review on me. What you will find is me setting up and tuning in someone’s system. It’s all I’ve ever done. I’m just crazy about this hobby. I get down on HEA, but my love for the soundstage is my specialty. I simply love exploring music and making it.

So yes, please do. If you see one of my threads and you have a point to make, make it. I may see it a little different or encourage Tuning, pushing it every chance I get, but that’s who I am. I do nothing but make music 24/7 and learning from you guys is like treasure to me. I may ask you "now did you try this, or just talking about it" but try to remember I don’t take it lightly and if I haven’t tried it, I’m going to based on your suggestions. That’s the way I’ve always been. I believe in all the variables.

So thanks, I hope we all become friends.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

oh HiFi  "I just want to put my feet up and let the music take me away."

yeah man, you got it!

Hi Jdane

Yep, when the audio shops across the US went under it changed the landscape of HEA and the hobby in general. And it happened so fast. Folks on this thread have mentioned the need to experience tuning first hand, and in the mid 1990's we (MGD/RoomTune) were building tunable rooms inside of stores. It looked like things were on track for the industry to have a "method of listening", but then the mom & pops just couldn't hang on to their stores and compete against the internet.

Tuning isn't new to HEA, it just came along when the market place was beginning their transition from live spaces to on-line sells.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

"We can read about audio and tuning as much as we want and it will not tell us if we will enjoy music on whatever system is being written about. The only way to know is to listen. Why not get a room at one of the audio shows and set up a $1,000 system that blows away all the high-end systems and makes every recording sound good, no, not just good, awe inspiring, to everyone who hears them. That would be doing us all a great service. Writing threads about how the high-end is dead and tunable systems are what we really need, not so much."

Hi Tom

I do a tunable setup every year (since 2005) here in Vegas during the CES. This last CES I had a full Tunable Room and system showing off strip. We were at AXPONA 2017 too, but because the setup time was so short the guys didn’t have a chance to setup the whole package. Some folks might recall "TuneVilla" which was covered by several magazines. Well the "place" (TuneVilla & TuneLand) has been around since 1989 in different locations in the US.

This year I’ve rented space just off the strip that we’re thinking about converting, after I’m done using it for the wood curing, to have a tunable setup on the strip for folks to stop by and have fun. It’s close to Sahara and LVBD, so it’s very close to the convention center. The shows are cool, but the time period really isn’t enough so folks can come in and relax while they explore tuning with me, or on their own. Another cool thing about this location is, is right on the edge of the Vegas Arts District.

So yes, as the OP states it can’t just be Talk, it’s also has to be Walk in order for folks to understand.

thanks for you post

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Tj

Great to see you here!! I know your experiences are going to help folks understand the Tuning process. It's going to be interesting to watch the change happen in our hobby. I'm also getting ready to do more posting on the Method of Tuning thread. Hope you have time to help out. I think it's one thing for me to post (as kind of the father of tuning, if that's fair to say), but when the actual listeners post about tuning the topic becomes real to many folks. Again it's the Talk & Walk issue. With you and others being real time examples, it adds that element of believability, that this hobby so desperately needs, and so many are searching for after a long time of audio spinning and it's spin doctors.

thank you for being here!

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Now on the car topic. The reason they sound the way they do is because of the pressure they are able to create because of the small space. Simple Q & A that can be tackled by any auto audio guy. If folks want to put their spin on it, that's up to them but it will end back at the same place. Your listening to materials, vibration and pressure.

So lets get to the Talk & Walk on this topic briefly. When talking about car stereos and the way they work, how many of you have stripped the car down to the frame and then built it back up again for sound reasons? Some of you probably have, but if not you'd be surprised about what you can learn about car sound from taking it all the way down to the frame and building it back up.

To answer the suspension question, we tested our cars by listening and testing them while sitting on their wheels and also jacking them up off the wheels. Having them resting on their wheels sounds mushy (rubbery) as compared to coupling them to the floor and lifts. Raising them also made them far more tunable.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

I want to touch on the car, but first let me give you guys a little insight into my job of "doing" (the walk). About every day I get a call or email asking me to do some testing. This morning for example I was asked to test the sound of different materials used by the state of Illinois in building residential properties. In particular the 3M product called "fire-block" vs the other brands.

What I will be doing is making a testing jig so I can hear the results when using 12-2 and 14-2 Romex. I will be testing literally dozens of different competitors and then make my recommendations.

You might say "so what". And that would be cool, unless your one of the hundreds of thousands of listeners who want to go further. For every guy out there saying their system is just fine there are 40 saying "I wish I could....". They come up on this and other audio forums every day reading to see if they can find an answer to their questions. Why don’t they post? One of the major reasons is they know that many folks posting probably are offering their opinions on topics they have never, or with limited experience, researched more than reading what someone else thinks. How do I know this first hand? I have a list of emails from this very forum to get to almost every day since I have started visiting. Am I the answer? Nope, I’m the messenger. You’re the answer and I’m here to give the encouragement to try. If your not interested, then my question is, why did you post? And what are you going to say to those folks who do start to walk, or have been walking?

The starting points I have been talking about cost you the listener zero dollars, or very little. The most interesting part to this is, this is the future of the hobby for the music adventurist, and it has been happening for a very very long time.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Jafant, thanks!! Good to see you as well.

My Vegas Strip location (where I’ve set up my writing room) has two suites. One upstairs apartment and one down stairs. There’s a system in the writing room and than the main listening area. The downstairs apartment has my wood curing area and a listening room. There’s also a gaming room in yet another space. Last year I had everything in one space with 6 listening rooms, but I felt too far away from the strip and airport. You can see everything on TuneLand but to give a breakdown of this space. The main listening area has a SAM wall behind the chair. On the back side of the wall is where I keep a big part of my equipment stored. That area has several tuning platform/shelves. On those shelves is Audio Note, Audolici, Music Hall, Creek, Magnavox, Pioneer, Sherwood, Kenwood, Superphon, Marantz, Jolida, Luxman, Rotel and more. I tune lots of equipment during the year so it comes and goes. Last year for example I had in Bricasti, Accuphase, Audio Research, Krell and again a few other brands to work on. Speakers, of course I have the Rev6, Rev60, Rev SW-15. And than my other speakers (less talked about) Viola, LOW, the 8" full range and others of mine. I also have the Reference Tonian, JBL and 4 or so other brands. I have a few other DACs, decks and tuners.

I have my cables Picasso and Bare Essence. I also have Transparent Audio, Esoteric and a couple others floating around somewhere. Oh and can’t forget the Bare Essence "White". I have all of my other goodies as well.

The main listening system has the Rev6 Combo setup with Picasso Type2 ICs and Type4 Bare Essence "White". I have a full display of my hand voiced Platforms & Rails using Brazilian Pine and Low Tone Redwood, LTR Tuning Blocks, MGA Sub amp & SW-15 sub, BP Cable Grounds. SAM and PZC acoustics, and a couple of RoomTune Squares. I’m also using my Mini Wall Tuning Blocks (Pretty cool little guys), Space Cones, MTD’s. So as you can tell my system is mainly a variable musical instrument.

what about the equipment?

Well because my system is a tuning tool I can put in an amplifier, my trusty Magnavox players and I’m off to the races. For the sake of the other thread I’m doing here, I’ve bought several amps so I can do the tune from scratch using basic electronics. 3 days ago I got in another Pioneer sx-3400 and popped it into the system. BTW for my reference tube gear I use Audolici from Portugal. The A25M is the MG Version. I also have the AVP-01 and AP-01 preamps.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Guys & Gals (got an email from one of the gals who asked to be included). So just wanted to say "hello ladies". I’ll be using "Guys" or "folks" or whatever as general terms for saying "hey gang". Thanks for the emails too. I’ll do my best to be here, facebook, TuneLand and by email, but if I fall behind please be patient with me, as soon as I’m caught up with clients and my own listening I’ll be back at it.

You guys have been very kind with your private emails, thank you! It’s a lot of fun for me.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Falconquest

When I first started my relationship with HEA (late 70’s early 80’s) I was hit with my first blast of "highendism". It’s a language and personality that is a mixer of Electrical Engineering, science, Webster, compulsive RTA & blind fold testing, Male ego, empirical testing, physics, neuroticism, myth making and marketing. I think I said earlier, my friends in the entertainment biz warned me to stay as far away from HEA as I could. It reminded me of the different types of studio engineers, techs, producers and artist. When you take something as cool, and young, as stereo and begin to "tech-no-fy" it I have found that the best way to approach it is, be careful to what you lay claim to (credit for), and be humorist in your private world, while trying not to engage with those who have learned enough to be dangerous but not necessarily accurate. And (and this is an important one) always keep in mind of the folks who aren’t speaking up.

For every one person that is speaking an opinion out in the open there are a 100 not saying anything. In todays info world that may even be more like 1 to 1000, who knows.

HEA has created it’s own paradigm that exist with it’s own unique set of words and rules, that outside of HEA, makes little sense to onlookers. I always say "guys it’s not that hard" but HEA hates that type of simplicity. For example, HEA has sold the myth that these over built, beautiful looking, heavy, expensive, complicated, discrete audio components & speakers are better at reproducing sound. Yet the reality is, they actually play less of the recorded signal than does something with lower mass and simpler build. The writing is now on the wall that HEA’s over built and over priced products are on their way to the dinosaur archives, but the transition is hard to go through for those of us who have bought into our big system comfort zone.

Along with the products themselves going through the transition, the HEA marketing starts to look suspicious. The sales tool of trying to make audio more difficult than it really is, is all part of the paradigm of trying to sell HEA as a more advanced hobby than it really is. The more the listener is mystified the longer he or she hangs on to the hope that one fixed sound is going to be the answer to playback, even though everything about music playing, recording and playback is a variable science. As I and others point out the transition should have taken place back in the 90’s when the reviewers were actually on this path to tuning, but the HEA revenue world didn’t want to let go of it’s new found wealth. It was a paradigm of guilt marketing, greed, incomplete science and eye candy.

Quantum, discrete, isolation, dampening, compression, NASA, EE, inert, first reflection point, transparency, revealing and many more that are a part of the selling of HEA aren’t necessarily being used in the truest sense but have been turned into tools of convincing a certain part of the public of HEA to defend the market. You take a forum like this and throw in a little internet trolling and limited experience and you can see why the transition is taking so long. But the more you have folks like Tjbhuler speaking out, the easier the pill is to swallow.

also I want to throw this in from Geoff

"There is much confusion over what quantum physics is, what audio devices employ quantum physics or operate via quantum mechanics or quantum physics. However, it might be a little bit of an overreaction to condemn all audiophile devices marketed as quantum devices as hoaxes or suggest deception or lack or integrity. For example, the CD laser itself operates quantum mechanically, or any laser; they are “two dimensional quantum wells.”

And one more thing that you guys should think about studying are the "fundamental forces". A lot of audio is easy to figure out if you have taken a course in, or even study on the internet, the interaction of the Earth's forces.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi uberwaltz

"I totally understand it is likely my listening space that needs work rather than bad recordings per se.
However to some their listening space is not an area that can be subjected to various treatments, ynow wife dictates etc, so some of the changes required are just not practical for any number of reasons."

Do you know how many listeners out there would love to get to that 1% place? There is absolutely nothing like listening contentment. There must be a bell that goes off somewhere in heaven every time there is a happy listener. Being able to spend time on the music collection is very cool indeed.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi rhg88

"Sometimes the "listenign comparison" mantra is pushed a bit too far. I was flabbergasted to see a 250+ thread in audiogon on whether or not someone can hear the difference in sound quality when interchanging two cat6-certified internet cables."

I’m paid to hear the differences, and they do exist, but I think folks need to relax sometimes and study sound from a more settled approach. Audio settling doesn’t happen in a few minutes, it can take weeks or even more to hear changes in a system take on their full meaning.

It’s like these blind fold tests and ABing. Those are all cool and fine to do but their not really more than a possible snap shot, just like any test.

I’ll also comment on the Dynamic Range Database thing. I started to explore these (again) after it was brought up on the Stereophile forum and found this to be very if-y at best. I even went as far as to contact some of the testers and it’s extremely unprofessional and there is no standard testing protocol at all. The results are all over the map on the same recordings and it’s simply amateurish. Plus not one of these tests, that I witnessed, were done where someone physically changed the conditions of the testing. It goes back to our findings in 2004 where we found the physical conditions of the testing changes the results more than the testing itself. So for myself, after testing (doing) this 3 different times (late 90’s, 2004, last year) I feel pretty confident putting this one to bed. Then again if it’s helpful for others, it’s all good.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

gulpson said

"Ok, I get some of the thinking behind these pressures, rooms, etc. I am not sure I am fully sold on it, but have never tried anything but a plain system made up of a few not-too-fancy components. I did notice that room made a major difference. I will leave it at that, being a bit suspicious and, at the same time, leaving door open that room pressure 360 and the rest is all really true.

However, I am wondering how, for the purpose of this thread, we define poor recordings. Not "poor", but "recordings". Maybe the word "recordings" is used incorrectly."

_______________________________________________________

This is a biggie and HEA should have early on made things more clear. Introducing the term "recorded code" or equivalent should have been in play a long time ago when describing the actual recording. Here’s why. All recordings are different from each other and all playback systems are also different in the source/pre/recording interaction. There’s a couple of things that never really got passed on to the next generation (digital music) like what was tried to be done between the Eqing of tape and vinyl when the attempt was made to go from single source systems to multiple source. Adding a source selector into the mix created an un-equaling of performance that even till now has never been adequately implemented. HEA in particular moved way too fast into "discrete" componentry, not thinking about what they were doing.

If you go back to the generation before HEA discrete you will see that components had a volume control, balance, tone controls and inputs. The reason this was done is because it gave you an opportunity to find the center position of each recording, adjust the EQ differences between recordings, and so you would have separate inputs to add your effects to. In other words the pre-amp stage was so you could play several sources through one unit, kind of like an in home mixer. When HEA got rid of all those choices, they also were only able to give you a "one sound" choice at a time. No longer were you able to do the things mentioned above. That was the beginning of discrete listening. But here’s the problem, recording playback doesn’t work that way. Not only is every recorded code different, but so is the same with your playback input and output selectors. Let’s say you’ve hooked up your Tape deck, TT, CD’s, FM and Files to your one system. When you selected and dialed that system in to your preferred source, all the other sources are then not dialed in as well. If you’ve dialed in your setup to play a particular vinyl well, it will not sound the same with any other of your sources. There’s nothing in your system that automatically switches the sound of the audio chain (after changing sources), and HEA got rid of all the adjustments you use to have. That’s a big problem and unfortunately HEA was not knowledgeable enough to take you into that next chapter needed. For the last twenty to thirty years you have been sold systems that are incomplete and the answer the market has thrown at you is upgrade your system to another discrete system, instead of giving you real solutions. And even worse, they have turned you into skeptical hobbyist. Everyone has an opinion that only leads you back to the same place "audio is variable". You can spend 100years in this hobby listing our favorite components that had a particular sound when playing a particular recording on a particular source in a particular room, and that’s all good, but that’s a different hobby from playing back recordings correctly and with consistency.

the solutions are

A different type of play back system electronically, a different system for every source and recording, a method of tuning or bring back the options that were taken away. To get to the answers it brings us back to the OP "Talk but not walk?" If you guys did a simple exploration of the hobby you would find out, that you didn’t need these over built components. You would discover your hearing your room and if your speakers were more like musical instruments you could tune them to the room/system/ears/recordings. Some of you have already made the switch to electronic room correction. And some of you that are more purist you are going to have one source systems that are mechanically, electrically and acoustically tunable.

It also brings us back to the question of HEA itself and why it is on the decline. No matter my opinion or anyone else’s HEA of the past is on the decline. It’s not going to have a sustainable future without correcting some of the missteps. They’re not hard to identify missteps and any one of you can challenge the facts by doing yourself. It was asked earlier how do I know these things? Because I have done them, and so have others.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi bdp24

Thanks for jumping in. What setup do you have? We have several drum kits at the shop. Maybe some time you can hook up with one of the musicians here and talk tuning vs tension in real time.

One thing cool about my stereo stores is that we had studios setup at the locations so local musicians and recording artist could hang out with us. nothing like having discussions while actually doing what you are talking about.

One thing though just as a point of reference. When I was on tour I never had a musician or road tech tell me to "tension" up the drum kit. They told me to "tune" up the kit. Also the same was true when working with orchestras and drum lines. So, I know your trying to make a point but maybe you should take that up with drummers! My instrument is African drums btw so the tuning on them is a stretching and curing process.

thanks for you view point, I'll actually be meeting with some folks this weekend and will ask them about the terms they use and get back to you if you would like

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Geoff

"Michael, The “fundamental forces” and the interaction of the Earth’s forces sound like interesting topics. Can you expound on what you mean? What are we talking about here?"

Yep, I think this deserves it's own thread. I also think this is an area of audio in which you shine.

here's the wiki

"Fundamental interactions, also known as fundamental forces, are the interactions in physical systems that do not appear to be reducible to more basic interactions. There are four conventionally accepted fundamental interactions—gravitational, electromagnetic, strong nuclear, and weak nuclear. Each one is understood as the dynamics of a field."

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Iwal22

Good post!

"Drum set are tuned in a different way to every other instrument. It is extremely complex. Being able to get the right sound for the room or venue is an art.

The only way to learn to “tune” a drum set is to tune a drum set so many times that you train your ears to know what to adjust."

BINGO!

uberwaltz said

"MG
Yes tbh I am just about in heaven with my system for sure
I can and do sit and listen for 5, 5 or more hours at a time with no fatigue or desire to stop the music flowing.
Twas not always that way of course, I have had the same room for 11 years and when I think back to what I started with in their and where I am now.
The biggest mover was the Lyngdorf 2170
that basically did all the room tuning I need for me.
Not much more I need to achieve and changes I make now are just because I feel like it or the desire to "upgrade" like new cartridges.
So yes ring that bell!"

_________________________________

This for sure is one of the options for the now and for the future as innovations keep moving forward. I have been talking with designers who are working on the audio hologram. One of them is using my Tunable Room as the physical adjustment space. It’s pretty fascinating to see into the future of the hobby. It’s going to be so cool when the AV holograms come out and as I have been pushing for, I would like to see the licensing able to be marketed.

I don’t want to get ahead of myself or the industry, but someday you will be able (hopefully) to download the original master yourself and plug it into your hologram device. At that time you will see and hear the recorded code. Unfortunately the visual will not be going back to recordings that haven’t had the AV codes applied, but I bet even those will be somehow simulated with new visual formats remade for that particular piece of music to new visuals. But recordings being done now in the hologram version are crazy cool.

This is one of the reasons I tell folks, don’t down play the stereo soundstage, because the future of audio and visual is all about the soundstage. Now that we have files the innovative part of this industry is moving at lightening speed. Those debates on real soundstages probably won’t even be around a few short years from now.

I’ll let you know if I get time to pickup a Lyngdorf 2170. I've had my eye on a potential prototype unit but maybe I should play with the Lyngdorf too. I'm more into the physical tuning but, playing is the name of the game.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi jssmith

When it comes to listening I have learned to let the individual artist do the magic while I watch and learn. Going back to drummers for a second, as a kid I have had my hands slapped so many times when I went to tune in their room and set for him. If I knew I was doing some drums I made sure the rug closet was ready to be gone through. Many times they brought their own towels and wouldn’t let you get near the set. Love those guys! Anyway, we did a setup at a guitar shop some years ago where we brought in our PZC’s to surround the players while we handed them different guitars that they asked for (actually took two days). I wish HEA audiophiles could go through this. It was a lesson too be learned for the ages. I wish I would have kept those series of recordings.

I’m so glad that musicians have joined this thread!! Having experience in the studio "live room" and playback both is totally different from being in the audience or going to an audio trade show. There’s a completely different set of values. For one, you learn to throw out the $$$$$ myths and are able to focus on what is actually taking place musically. There are so many variables!!! Some engineers still went by the book, but it was the experienced guys who would come in and just know everything the minute they came in the space and their ears made contact with the room. Absolute geniuses. A couple of guys trained me early on with guitars, two were my cousins Doc & Merle Watson, the other was Mick Ronson. Lots of other guys added to my learning but they were the ones (oh and Phil Keaggy) who got me into those instruments. And while I’m handing out credits, the guys at Guitar Works down in Atlanta, they were great and talented.

guys

This is also why I build Tunable products. A listener might be sitting there content, and that’s cool, but think of how many people want (need) to hear the actual event in order to be satisfied? The chances of a one sound HEA system reproducing the actual sound (sounds) of a recording is far fetched at best. When I have an artist sitting in my room with my system I tune in the music to his original recollection.

This is just me personally, but I can’t even imagine how HEA has survived with only a volume control and no tunable system. My clients always tell me how they can’t see how tuning has been overlooked in this hobby. And honestly I believe the future for HEA has to include tuning, if it plans on being around much longer, but that’s me.

please read this again from Mr. Smith "Another test I found interesting was a $2,000 Mesa amp against a tiny $170 amp voiced specifically to mimic the Mesa. They sounded slightly different, but the $170 amp sounded BETTER!"

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

"The biggest choice in HEA of course is whether to select a guru or be your own."

My experience has been all the above. Attitudes and egos aside, there's that musical uniqueness to everyone. Some you have to look harder (that's a drag) but most have their values because of what they have either experienced or what they have read. Both have a value and there are all levels of knowledge.

for example, reading a reviewer from a magazine

For some this gives a certain level of info, measurements and comfort. For myself it's a door opener only, an infomercial. First thing I do, since I have learned about mass is look at the chassis, next I look inside to see how cramped the parts are. Next thing I do is look at the different sizes of parts and wire. Next are the parts bolted down. Then I look for dampeners and things like how the power wires go from the outlet to the board and transformer. Once I get the lay of the land I begin to set the component free so I can hear what is going on.

Now not thinking of price and marketing, if I get two components in and one is built to allow the signal flow without blockage and the other is a tank, I can make a fairly reasonable guess that the simple unit (tuned) is going to beatup on the over built one. This has proven to be the case I would wager 98% of the time.

I say this because for me personally a guru looks deeper than the cover. That being the case empirically exploring units using this paradigm it puts a certain shortcut into play. Gurus know the shortcuts and gurus also don't waste time exploring the same thing over and over trying to get to the sound. I see this again and again with expensive products. Having heavy chassis and over built parts and crossovers takes points away from the status of guru-ism. For me, speakers that need complicated crossovers are speakers (cabinet and drivers) that needed to be fixed. The perfect speaker is one that can work in many rooms and with many components. That to me means a speaker that is tunable, built like a musical instrument, and one that has one or two parts to the crossover. For components, light weight, parts that are relatively similar in size (also low mass), an easy to tune chassis and a nice layout of space on the board. Also a resonant board so the parts can gel. Hardly ever with a top cover. And limited to no shielding. Shielding is a choice to be made by the listener after the unit is setup and has a chance to interact with the environment. Pretty much good products are ones that can be made to produce the sound desired after they have been acclimated to a listeners space.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi mapman

I’d have to leave that one up to the listeners themselves. Of course most of the folks who come to me are looking for that next step or even their ultimate setup including the room built variable.

This is just me as an onlooker, but most of the threads I see there are folks looking for change. Or at least the guys who have emailed me from here are looking to take a step. Not even necessarily a purchase, but a further step in their method.

Also guys keep in mind I'm not here to dictate, but instead to share the options when tuning in a system. Some of you have no desire to change anything and that's way cool, but there are many more looking toward the variables.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi jpsreno

Thanks for visiting the thread! Your comments are right on target with the OP. I started this thread so people can talk about "doing" audio and music. On Agon there are all of us who love music and look at it from unique points of view based on our experiences, and that's where I wanted to see this thread go. For myself it kind of drifted over into the thread I'm doing on the method of tuning, but I'm glad to see it staying somewhat on point. When listeners see other listeners' experiences it builds the community (family).

I for one enjoy hearing the experiences of others, from Geoff's low mass Walkman to Tj's all out tunable room. Also we should enjoy input from the musicians. It's all good, if we keep it all good.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net 

aalenik

Again it's a matter of doing. It's not really a point for debate but actually experiencing it. On this thread I would be wasting my time and yours if I were to pitch you on something that isn't the case. But, I understand that unless a person actually does something it can seem ify.

Since Tj is on this thread I'll ask him if he would like to comment.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi bdp24

"My point was, that to say a drum can go out-of-tune when moved from one room to another in nonsense"

Next time I talk to the school or personally give one of these demos I will give them your comments. It will be interesting to hear their take. I already have mine after giving this demo scores of times.

here's another one you might find interesting

If you check out Positive Feedback's article on me "Recording the Michael Green way" you will see one of my studios that we did the demo in. Also while doing the recording the article talks about an interesting thing happened. The pianist was playing while I made an adjustment to one of my mechanical/acoustical devices. He shouted out "wait what did you just do" I told him that I changed the tension (there I used your word) on the PZC. He asked me to go back to the setting I had before and I did of course. He then asked another player to sit down and play while I did it again (Robert Barstow). They were amazed that when I adjusted the tension on the PZC that it changed the tension on the keys.

Like I said this thread is about actually doing.

thanks again for your point

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Geoff

Thanks for the update. I know you were working with several different players, even cassettes. Are those still in use? I thought it very interesting when you went from the HEA setup to the low mass Walkmans.

You know it's weird I think that so many folks pick on the portable units being sold, and when talking to them I discover they have never really listened to the modern portables. This whole low mass thing really throws HEA audiophiles off for some reason. Around show time CES here I try to make it to some portable demos.

Technology is something else.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Prof

To be honest you read so much more into the OP than what was there I don't think I could successfully explain myself to you. From the responses I saw, some people got it, others didn't, and some are sharing their "talking vs walking". Personally I think the posts spell out the OP perfectly, including yours, thanks.

Ill will? Nah. I don't think folks need to go down that path.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Prof

I’m sorry you feel this way. You got it wrong. Everyone here is worthy.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Prof

Tonight I've had people come in and out dropping off music for me to reference and also equipment. My job requires me to be at the top of the listening ladder cause my clients depend on my absolute dedication and focus. Your post simply knocked me off my focusing. I didn't mean to be rude or have any intent to marginalize your comments. I was just being direct.

Sometimes for me, getting into defending myself takes way too much time and again I can get out of focus. I literally don't have the brain power or time to get into things that cause me to drift. My world is literally jumping from one soundstage to the next with very few breaks. I ask myself if I should be on Agon at all, but when I have folks emailing and thanking me I feel good about what I'm doing here.

Maybe sometime this weekend I can read back through your message to me and get my head around it, but right now all I saw was someone saying I was being disparaging, and didn't have the time to plug that into my vibe.  

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Very sorry guys, these internet trolls are not worth my time! Not you glupson, I wanted to add this. I would be happy to talk to you about the questions you have, but not among internet trolling going on.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Hi Guys

There's so much here to respond to, I will try to take it bite at a time.

mapman said

"Michael Green thanks for answering the question."

Your absolutely welcome! Making these speakers is a joy!!

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Gurus also like baby back ribs, so I'll see you guys either later on tonight or tomorrow.

Prof, we should also talk about your hard on for me. Shouldn't you just ask me out. I mean I can check with my girlfriend, or maybe the three of us can catch a movie.

Seriously though I have a question for you, are you really May Belt cause you sure sound like her in your writing? Seriously you sound just like her. Your like one of those "no answer can be the right one kind of internet troll". I'm flattered but honestly I like women. That shouldn't stop you from getting a picture of me to hang on your mirror, but just so you know we can never have anything meaningful long term.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

PS: Prof Fridays no good for me maybe Saturday :)

Hi Bill333

Very nice post! This goes all the way back to recording studio amplifiers. When the amps came off the trucks from shipping we would go through them and remove the shipping ties before we would mount them. It was one of the differences between amps we took on tour and amps used in the studio. Same is true with home audio amps and other components.

The walk here is the fact that caps and the other parts (including cables) weren’t designed and spec-ed out with tie wraps around them. Glue, tie wraps, shipping bolts, chassis and other common parts are not part of the parts manufacturers design. Audio parts are very specifically designed to meet spec and when you add materials (such as a tie or glue) you are of course changing the performance. I am sure some can’t hear the deference, but I have not met many of them.

There is the problem of "over build" in component designing that is getting noticed more and more and causes many listeners to go with a designers basic models instead of flagship models. When you have too many parts too close together the parts are not able to perform at their spec. This actually causes blockage of the audio signal and makes the soundstage start to collapse or get congested sounding. I personally prefer listening to low mass components or at least ones that respond well to vibratory tuning. The Audolici A25M is an excellent example of a well laid out component. Still not light, Valeriy strategically spaced out his parts nicely. Other designers have also created works of simplicity as an art. I do not keep my chassis on any of my components. I don’t like that closed in sound. Plus if I want to do some tuning the last thing I want are plastic ties squeezing my parts. I want to use products at their point of spec design. Meaning I want to use their leads, stems and seals as close to factory design as possible.

Very good posting Bill333

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

for a reference the 40 foot system, designed by us in Nashville

Hi glupson

I don't want to answer for HEA companies, but I will say, that when listeners start to tune their views change quite a bit toward manufacturers. I also know for a fact that many guys and gals who start tuning sell off their massive components and get products that tune easier.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

Nah, you’ll be ok Prof.

Do you have a stereo Prof?

BTW I should mention the ribs were great!

Hi glupson

OK, Laminar flow, effect or line.

You & Geoff were on target for the name even though my use of the words had to be bent some as I looked at what to call the energy there. If you look on TuneLand you can see the drawings and more description but for the short version here laminar effect works like this. When a source produces the oscillatory motion in a room it stimulates the already established patterns of pressure. Meaning the info contained in the new motion may be different but the pattern has been in play since the enclosure (room, house, dissipative mingle) was built. Part of these mechanics is the room's walls, ceiling and floor. Your room is electronically charged by the Earth's fields. It's actually a continuum capacitor, not only because it is enclosed but also because most homes have electrical wiring surrounding the internal structure.

Geoff talks about "time of day" listening. This is a very real event that never stops. Not only does the cycle have certain shifts but also seasonal shifts change the Earth's fundamental interactions inside of every room. Your not hearing things, or should I say you are hearing things. Your hearing things and your feeling things all the time and even though you might think your standing or sitting still watch what happens when you have an inner ear infection, you loose your balance. That's all part of the power your system has. To listen to your particular laminar effect in your room is simple. Pick a wall with not much on it. If you start talking aloud in the center of the room and move toward that wall, when you get about 8" or so from the wall you will hear a sort of splashing sound that travels along the wall heading toward the intersections (seams) of the room. Back away and move forward a few times and you can pin point where the on coming sound pressure engages with the pressure coming back off the wall. This is called the laminar line. From the laminar line to the wall itself is called the laminar flow. Every suface in your room that is able to produce a reflection has a laminar effect. As I said earlier it's a continuum. You don't turn it on or off it's always there.

Walk inside of your house and listen to the different sounds of each of your rooms. They all sound different. That's because the materials and their structure (LxWxH) are all different. There's more but I usually break things down to 4 variables, size, material, gravity and charge. How much does the laminar effect play in this? Get 2 friends of yours and try this free experiment. Cut 2 pieces of cardboard out 5"x24". Place your ear about 5" from that wall we were listening to. Have your friends from either side approach you with the cardboards edge touching the wall (the cardboard will be out from the wall about 5"). If you look on TuneLand you will see this. As they approach you from either side you will hear the Laminar zone shrink and as they get right up to you it will sound like the rest of the room has somewhat disappeared. Have them move in the other direction and you will hear the zone open up again. Once you start playing with this you can make your own Sound Shutters out of cardboard or hobby wood and you will be shocked by the control you will gain over your walls.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net

The Tunable Speakers

I’ve been making speakers a long time like many of you. Early on in my adventures I noticed a problem. Everytime I walked into a different recording studio the same speakers sounded different and I ended up spending all kinds of time playing with the EQ to try to find a reference point between the "Live Room" and the "Control Room" and than there was the playback or "Mastering Room". Guys would take the recordings and play them in their cars, and some used headphones and some just decided to suffer through the control room monitors. You’ve all seen pictures of the recording console with several different pairs of speakers. Many times JBL, NS10’s and one or two others on stand by.

In the late 70’s I finally got tired of having to deal with this when I was doing the setups, and I started playing with the idea of making a speaker that I could use with some kind of consistency. For years I would build custom speaker stands and speakers and speaker clamps until I finally landed on something that worked for me. The first tunable speakers were crude torture looking things, but they worked and studios started using them for main mix down monitors the "studio 5". Time went on and I was asked to be the acoustician for UMI (United Musical Instruments). This opened up the door to work more closely with the actual making of horns, wood winds, cellos, guitar, violins, violas and the coolest of cool, building rooms for Steinways.

Around 1989 or so I started to make my speakers out of instrument woods instead of MDF and found tons more tone to play with. This put into action the next 15 plus years in design hunting for the right drivers and parts and pieces so that I could make the most simple to drive speaker that I could (and low mass). For tweeters I used ribbons, silk domes, horns and pretty much the full range of everything I could find. Every time I went more complicated I ended up needing crossover work done and my goal was to go crossoverless. I had found the sound of the cap I wanted to use but drivers were a bugger. Finally I threw out everything and started from scratch. On the cabinet side I was doing pretty well as I got the inside tuning bar down to a science. The Tuning bar works like this. Instead of building heavy cabinets the tuning bar applies the force from the inside and the tuning bolt and washer on the outside supplies the inward force. Because the cabinet has both inside and outside force going on you can adjust the cabinets tone. Where most cabinet designs push outward mine equalize the pressure. The wood of the speaker is low mass compressed board treated with instrument finish. Except for the front baffle board which is a guitar body board. The whole speaker is then veneered in cherry.

The drivers however were a pain. I didn’t like anything I heard. There use to be some nice stamped drivers made in Europe but lately nothing that was what I wanted. I decided on modifying the standard Vifa D27 or ScanSpeak but still I wasn’t happy. Then it dawned on me to make my own baskets. This changed everything. I saw Kosst said I used 3.5" paper tweeters (stamped) as if that was a bad thing lol. Well it would be a bad thing except my baskets are redwood. Again the "walk" Kosst. All my drivers are redwood voiced drivers. The tone is out of this world. Ask the folks who have them. They’re pretty darn snappy pappy:)

The tuning is just as cool as the speaker. Lets say I’m playing cymbals and they are a little loose sounding. Lets say the halos are a tad too wooly. All you do is barely tighten the Tuning Bolt and the cymbal will tighten right up. The new Revs are pretty special. And yes if someone wants the ribbon or silks we do custom sets. We’re doing a set of ribbons right now.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net