Your Side by Side Experience With Best Vintage vs Newer Expensive Hi Tech Speakers


Has anyone here ever done a side by side comparison between Tannoy Autograph, Bozak Concert Hall Grand, EV Patrician, Jensen Imperial Triaxial, Goodmans, Stentorian, Western Electric, Altec A4, Jbl Everest/Hartsfield/Summit/Paragon/4435, Tannoy Westminsters, Klipschorns vs the Hundreds of Thousand even Million Dollar speakers of today like Totems, Sonus Farber, BW, Cabasse, Wilsons, Dmt, Infinity, Polk ...etc
vinny55
Even though I had a good bit of loudspeaker building experience with my own / friends’ projects as well as my involvement with Fried, until I began building amplifiers, I didn’t understand the importance resistors play in the sonic presentation.

At one point, I had four amplifiers in front of me, three of which using the same circuitry, differing only only in their passive components, and two of which only in their resistors. The first was a classic Dynaco ST70 using the carbon composition resistors of the day. The second using carbon film resistors and modern capacitors, with the third identical apart from its metal film resistors. I built both of these amplifiers in the same time period. The fourth amplifier was a Dynaco ST80, produced in Japan, built to correct all the supposed flaws in the original; increased power supply capacity, Mullard long-tail pair (used by 99% of today’s push-pull tube amps and most of the Dynaco replacement / upgrade boards) driver stage, LED bias indicators, and (ironically) a triode / ultralinear switch.

The resistors themselves profoundly influenced the sound.

The original Dynaco had that amber colored, overly warm, lush sound normally equated with vintage gear. The same amplifier circuit with metal film resistors not only sounded like a modern amplifier with its clarity, neutrality, and openness, it possessed a level of both speed and liquidity most products with another zero or two in their price tags hope for.

Despite the marketing claims amplifier manufacturers have used over the past few decades about their innovations and ingenuity, when it comes to tube amplifiers, the circuits remain the same as those used in the 1950s. THE single most meaningful difference between a vintage and modern tube amplifier is the metal film resistors, and to a much lesser extent, capacitors.

The guitar industry knows this all too well. The demand for the vintage sound by the customers has led to both the much higher collectibility and pricing of the original amplifiers, the reintroduction of those same products, at a much higher price point to boot, and the tuners in every town folks bring their amps in to up their tone. Number one way to get that vintage tone, carbon composition resistors.

And if anyone cared...the Dynaco with the carbon film resistors sounded less than noteworthy, possessing neither the charm some treasure vintage products for, nor the modern sound that I prefer. The ST80 proved to me how the simplicity of the concertina phase splitter produces a special sound the vast majority of today’s push-pull tube amplifiers simply do not. With few exceptions, high-end audio amplifier designers have rejected this topology over the years using the argument of lacking the gain the long-tail pair produces. However, since many here like to quote Nelson Pass these days in regard to our components producing more gain than we can make use of, I’m now going to begin claiming this an advantage for the concertina. And for what it’s worth, though the sound of the ST80 fell far short of the original as all of these "improved designs" do in my experience, I did appreciate the triode switch even if it conflicts with Dynaco’s actual raison d’etre of ultralinear operation
Thanks @michaelgreenaudio your bang on and doing a great service. You think outside the box and have a wide viewing audio mind. Thanks for instructing us the importance of audio tuning. I had read about rudimentary concept in an old scott 1950s brochure about tuning your speakers or was it out of phase. I forget now lol. Michael Your taking it to a higher level. Kudos.

Thank you  @trelja  i had read same thing recently on old thread in another audio site. Scott tube integrated owners wondered why their equipment didnt sound warm after servicing or didnt sound great after purchasing it used. Because their tech had changed the original resistors. I did not know this prior to few days ago. Its such an important detail that the normal audio hobbyist probably doesnt know including myself until few days ago. Maybe technicians are unaware.
@trelja 
So would you suggest keeping the original carbon composition resistors for vintage and changing the modern tube amps resistors?
today what are the best sweet sounding resistors and what brands do you suggest if your building an amplifier from scratch or if you would be repairing an old neglected tube integrated. 

If by necessity you had to replace a resistor in a vintage tube or transistor resistor due to faulty can you find an ideal modern equivalent to the vintage original resistor?

What about if your repairing an old Luxman Marantz or Sansui ss amplifier or solid state receiver?

What do you recommend i tell the technician:
I need to get my Scott tube integrated 299D overhauled and Sansui P2020 tube integrated amp checked and wiring work done.

My friend is getting The massive Ampzilla amplifier refurbished 

Thanks

@michaelgreenaudio I too am curious about this tuning method that you reference. I am always open minded to any possibilities, and look forward to reading your posts, once posted. As a guitarist, I disagree somewhat on your comment on tuning being accurate in one room, and moving to another room makes the instrument sound out of tune (if I am understanding you correctly) I agree that an acoustic guitar will "sound" different, room to room, but not out of tune. I'm also curious about your drivers being tuned to the cabinet, AND the room. So, if a potential customer were to purchase your speakers, how do you determine the correct tuning methodology for that individuals room?

As for the original question from the OP, I have a little story about my vintage/modern comparison. Back in the mid seventies, as a budding young (but poor) audio enthusiast my first "decent" pair of speakers where the Altec Lansing Model 3's (don't laugh, I was just a kid). Now at that point in time the shop I was dealing with also had a pair of the Model 15's. For me at the time, they were my unattainable Holy Grail. Time marches on, and now decades later, and many different speakers, I am running a pair of Wilson Maxx 2's, and also have a set of Wilson Watt Puppies in reserve.. Recently I had an opportunity to purchase a pair of decent Altec Model 3's. I did so purely out of a sense of nostalgia. The same weekend I also found a pristine set of the Altec Model 15's. I just HAD to have them. Brought them home and built a pair of custom "pig-tails" for spade connecting, so as not to modify the stock binding posts on the 15's. Well, after listening for a while, my thoughts were; WOW !! These really sound awful !! LOL

Sorry for being so long winded. My Bad!!

Hi Eddy

I don’t think your long winded at all. I don’t know why some of these posts are so short lol.

In my studio, and up in the tunable studio I designed at SUNY, I use to give a demo to my classes that went like this. I would take one of the rooms and tune it up. The musician (we did this with a lot of different instruments) would then go into the room and tune his or her instrument in that room. In another room a few feet away I had it out of tune. I would have the musician then walk into the out of tune room and their instrument would go out of tune. I even did this in the bigger studio/hall. I would go through and tune up one half of the room, leaving the other half out of tune. Then I would have a student tap on his drum (tuned of course) they would walk from one side of the room to the other and you would hear the drum go out of pitch as soon as they got into the out of tune space and then back in tune when they walked and played back into the tuned area. This particular demo was pretty wild cause in this big room it was only a matter of maybe a foot from tuned to out of tune.

Here’s another cool one.

When I was doing some work with Slum Village in the Sound Lounge, folks would come by and we would do some interviews. One day Bubby Webb and a few others did a cool demo, I think it was for VH1. They had Mel (great singer) sing on the regular floor just off the main stage area. While she was singing she stood up on one of my vocal platforms, and you could hear her voice instantly jump into her chest. She would get on and off that platform while singing. Needless to say the TV guy freaked out. He called it a trick, then we had him do the same thing.

What type of guitars do you have?

yep the Tunable Speakers are pretty cool

I did a show in Frankfurt years ago. Dave’s speakers were in the room next to me, it was when I first came out with the Chameleon. About half way through the show I decided to do something interesting. I got the same recording Wilson was playing, and I told a bunch of guys I could tune my speaker to sound like the Wilson’s. Of course that got folks going. So I went over and listened in their room for a while, and then came over to my room and tuned them up as close as I could. I sold 15 pair that day. It was so fun that I did the same thing in Denmark. Only this time had B&W in the room next to me. B&W didn’t like it I don’t think. The Wilson gang is always cool. Dave’s got style.

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net