@jakecanada i think the whole universe of beautiful vintage MM cartridges is missing if you only tried those two modern ortofons. I'm going to the oppisite direction from very expensive modern MCs to less expensive vintage MMs. Those cartridges like Audio-Technca AT-ML170 OCC and AT-ML180 OCC or OFC might be rare and hard to find, but they are much better than the most expensive MCs up to $4500 i have tried in my system. In my opinion it's better to try 10 rare vintage MM cartridges, than one super expensive MC you may not like afterall. Even extremely rare vintage MMs from the 80s are cheaper than new MC in this crazy world. So i don't understand the hype about MCs.