Bower and Wilkins and its relationship with Classe and Rotel

ct0517, 
i was in a bit of a hurry this morning when I posted my comments on the B&W BAF (had to get to the gym for some stress relief! ;-) ). Anyway, a couple of more comments on the B&W BAF

* Ken Rockwell's dissertation says that w/ the B&W BAF the overall response is 6th order (I'm hoping in the bass region because he did not clarify)....

The Bessel alignment also has the advantage that adding a very simple second-order electrical filter (this equalizer) allows one to create a completely different kind of alignment, a sixth-order Butterworth alignment, whose frequency response is also flat, and extends and extra half-octave deeper in the bass.

i looked at the freq plot that B&W Europe sent you & it does not look 6th order by any stretch of the imagination. If it's 6th order then i'm expecting to see a 36dB/octave roll-off in the deep bass region. I don't see such a steep roll-of. Take a look yourself - the roll off is in the 10dB region at best. 
Another observation - there is a dotted line that says "with filter" & a 2nd dotted line that says "without filter". what is the solid line in the bass region that seems to stop around 50Hz? The dotted line "without filter" is not on top of the solid line which i believe is the speaker freq response. How did B&W Europe get that "without filter" dotted line that is completely mismatched to the speaker's frequency response solid line? It's not making any sense to me.....

* Ken Rockwell's dissertation says & you have cut & pasted the same text verbatim on your system page ....

Without this equalizer, the naked B&W Matrix speakers are a vented fourth-order design, specifically in a Bessel alignment. "Fourth-order" is an engineering term that refers to all vented and passive-radiator speakers; sealed boxes are "second order."

this is not a true statement. When I owned a pair of Green Mountain Audio C1.5i floor-stander 3-way speakers the bass box was sealed & was 1st order both electrically & acoustically. There's nothing that says that a sealed box must be 2nd order. You can make it any order you like if the speaker designer knows what he/she is doing.

The B&W BAF is really a very simple concept & elementary filter design - put a 6dB peak at the speaker's bass resonant freq such that the bass driver's droop in freq response is compensated by a boost by the 6dB peak such that the combination's freq response is flat. They chose a 2nd order Bessel - good choice since Bessel filters have maximally flat group delay & you need this to ensure good quality bass, no boomy bass.
  
But the fundamental question still arises - why was a BAF required? The answer to that is - the bass drivers used in the Matrix series speakers were simply not up to the task of reproducing deep bass (20-40Hz). For a speaker manuf that makes all of its own drivers or has them contract manuf by giving the 3rd party tightly controlled driver specs, this is an inherent flaw in the design & the BAF is a band-aid for the speaker. The correct thing to have done back then was to invent a bass driver that was linear into the sub-sonic region so that it natively could reproduce deep bass. Instead B&W used whatever bass driver they had in stock & made users buy the BAF. 
Ken Rockwell's dissertation clearly says that in later years B&W dropped the BAF & the new N, S, D series speakers all have bloated/boomy bass. B&W has still not been able to design the correct bass driver for their speakers!!! wow! what in the world does that say for this manuf?? 

  

I have had 3 amps on my BW 802D2.  

Cary 211FE
Classe M600
Boulder 2060

and while it sounds great with the Classe m600, it sounds best with the Boulder.

B&W, Classe' / Rotel and Transparent cabling are all sonic matches for one another. Happy Listening!

Bombaywalla - The BAF is a gimmick for a speaker whose designer could not design it correctly in the 1st place & had to add a bass extension/alignment filter to fix a flawed initial design.

BW
You can call it a Gimmick - gizmo - device - equalizer - booster - filter .... we can call it whatever we want. Do we know how many gimmicks are used to bring that CD, Download, or LP to us to buy ? Dan D’Agostino is a highly respected amplifier designer/builder. He cared enough about it (B&W BAF) that he had KRELL build a B&W BAF version that he used with his reference at the time Matrix 800’s in his own living room.

http://hansvt.home.xs4all.nl/pdf/brochures/baf.pdf

Now I value those opinions that come from direct ownership with details about the setup. This way one can determine if the opinion applies to them or not. Do you have this BAF experience with an 800 series speaker in your room ? I have been through 3 different BAF’s within a 22 ? year period.

This is a topic for another thread but let’s understand something. For a speaker to have full bass extension at least two things are required. 1) The design itself needs to be capable and 2) the room it is placed in needs to be able to support the bass waves. You wonder why an Audiophile spends $$$$$ on an "advertised" flagship full range speaker; and then complains about bass, and needs to be bring in subwoofers?

The Matrix 800 model itself does not need the BAF. They are full range without it. But what the BAF does is ensure a fuller range for the entire 800 Matrix Series line, especially if the room doesn’t support it. Like your average living room. This was also in an era when 2 channel was the focus and subwoofers not so prevalent as today. On the 801m without BAF, things start dropping off quickly around 40-50 hz. So I don’t see this as a Gimmick. I see it as Genius. I think most agree as they became the No. 1 monitor.

The new D3’s are showing full range specs again. But even though they may "hit" the low notes, I can’t see them pressurizing the room due to their small size, again depending on the size of the room. I am assuming subwoofers will be needed for full range. Maybe an owner can chime in; or since Douglas Schroeder is on this thread maybe he can snatch a pair for review and let us know. :^)

lalitk
Heck, I have guys come to my home and tried to grab the tubular tweeter thinking it’s a microphone for karaoke :-)

Funny !

As long as they don’t try to sing Adele’s - Hello.