I will try to answer each comment in order.
>>"This is where I'm confused, Steve. Let's say my CD player has attenuation and I run it directly into my basic amplifier.">
Then your amp is not a Basic amp, but an integrated amp with the extra gainstage already incorporated into it. If it was a Basic amp, then you wouldn't be running a CD player directly into it and getting full power output.
>>"Where's the gainstage preamp? Your reasoning seems to say that the under this scenario, my basic amplifier has become an integrated.">
See above. If you can directly connect a CD player into an amplifier, it has that extra gainstage built into it. The amp is Not a Basic amplifier.
>>"A light bulb did go off for me a few posts back. If the premap gain stage typically is placed after the attenuation, then you have this:
Preamp = attenuation + gainstage">
Correct.
>>"Amp = gainstage + gainstage (two at least, right?)">
Nope. Not unless you use something like a 300b or some larger tube types (very low gain type of tubes). Then two stages may be in order. An external preamp has gain, so a good Basic amp only needs one gainstage.
>>"Now, an integrated could be the combination of the two above, i.e.,:
=>attenuation + gainstage + gainstage + gainstage">
An integrated only needs two gainstages (unless a 300b or some larger tube types). The Basic amp, with its one gainstage and the preamp gainstage installed.
>>"If I describe my intgegrated as having a "passive pre", then I probably have:
=>attenuation + gainstage + gainstage">
Nope. Remember, only two gainstages are needed. The first gainstage was taken from the external preamp, when it was installed in the Basic amp, which only had one gainstage to begin with.
>>"But to call the integrated's pre "passive" is a bit of a misnomer, I suppose,">
Yes. But remember, Drubin, this is what you have been taught. Some out there will try to teach anything to get an advantage in selling product.
One still has the same Total number of gainstages, whether basic amp and active preamp or integrated amp.
One simply moved the preamp gainstage from outside the Basic amp to inside the Basic amp (now called an integrated amp).
>>"because how can you really say that the gainstage is part of the preamp and not simply the first of the gainstages in the power amp. Is this what you are saying?">
Because the gainstage that was added to make the Basic amp an integrated amp performs the same function as the gainstage in the active preamp. The gainstage was simply moved from one chassis to another.
Following your line of reasoning, you can simply change definitions by location while the function of the gainstage remains the same?
By changing definitions, the door opens where definitions can be changed at will. If everyone changes definitions whenever they want, all chaos breaks loose. There needs to be some standards, or no one will understand what is being sold. And some will take advantage by deception, as many know. Bound for Sound has published several articles concerning shills, the press, and manipulators. Interesting reads and very informative.
Integrated amp means a putting together/combining of Basic amplifier and active gainstage preamplifier. It has some nice features, and some sound pretty good. In fact, I don't doubt the Panache is pretty darn good.
Take care.
Steve
>>"This is where I'm confused, Steve. Let's say my CD player has attenuation and I run it directly into my basic amplifier.">
Then your amp is not a Basic amp, but an integrated amp with the extra gainstage already incorporated into it. If it was a Basic amp, then you wouldn't be running a CD player directly into it and getting full power output.
>>"Where's the gainstage preamp? Your reasoning seems to say that the under this scenario, my basic amplifier has become an integrated.">
See above. If you can directly connect a CD player into an amplifier, it has that extra gainstage built into it. The amp is Not a Basic amplifier.
>>"A light bulb did go off for me a few posts back. If the premap gain stage typically is placed after the attenuation, then you have this:
Preamp = attenuation + gainstage">
Correct.
>>"Amp = gainstage + gainstage (two at least, right?)">
Nope. Not unless you use something like a 300b or some larger tube types (very low gain type of tubes). Then two stages may be in order. An external preamp has gain, so a good Basic amp only needs one gainstage.
>>"Now, an integrated could be the combination of the two above, i.e.,:
=>attenuation + gainstage + gainstage + gainstage">
An integrated only needs two gainstages (unless a 300b or some larger tube types). The Basic amp, with its one gainstage and the preamp gainstage installed.
>>"If I describe my intgegrated as having a "passive pre", then I probably have:
=>attenuation + gainstage + gainstage">
Nope. Remember, only two gainstages are needed. The first gainstage was taken from the external preamp, when it was installed in the Basic amp, which only had one gainstage to begin with.
>>"But to call the integrated's pre "passive" is a bit of a misnomer, I suppose,">
Yes. But remember, Drubin, this is what you have been taught. Some out there will try to teach anything to get an advantage in selling product.
One still has the same Total number of gainstages, whether basic amp and active preamp or integrated amp.
One simply moved the preamp gainstage from outside the Basic amp to inside the Basic amp (now called an integrated amp).
>>"because how can you really say that the gainstage is part of the preamp and not simply the first of the gainstages in the power amp. Is this what you are saying?">
Because the gainstage that was added to make the Basic amp an integrated amp performs the same function as the gainstage in the active preamp. The gainstage was simply moved from one chassis to another.
Following your line of reasoning, you can simply change definitions by location while the function of the gainstage remains the same?
By changing definitions, the door opens where definitions can be changed at will. If everyone changes definitions whenever they want, all chaos breaks loose. There needs to be some standards, or no one will understand what is being sold. And some will take advantage by deception, as many know. Bound for Sound has published several articles concerning shills, the press, and manipulators. Interesting reads and very informative.
Integrated amp means a putting together/combining of Basic amplifier and active gainstage preamplifier. It has some nice features, and some sound pretty good. In fact, I don't doubt the Panache is pretty darn good.
Take care.
Steve
