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The proverbial "giant killer"

As I research a new pair of speakers, I was intrigued to read about loudspeakers from companies like Triangle (France) and Swans (China). These companies seem to be offering exceptional technology at fair prices. They all manufacture their own drivers, so they are not buying standard, third-party production units and installing them in furniture grade cabinets. I’m beginning to think there are some practical explanations for their ability to offer what might be considered high-end products at a reasonable cost, one of which has a big impact; namely economies of scale.

I work for a high-end manufacturer of PC components, so amortization of costs based on production forecasts is not new to me. I also have a custom cabinetmaker as a neighbor, so I have a good idea what it would cost to construct a nice, well braced, furniture grade cabinet. I believe a big part of the reason that a small floor-standing, 2-way speaker would cost $20K is that there is a tremendous amount of research and development expenses being amortized into a very low forecast of sales. As sales volumes rise, the price of the system falls. A company like Swans, on the other hand, with massive manufacturing and sales capacity, could offer similar technology for 1/10th the price.

The reason I raise this point is that I’m curious about companies like Triangle and Swans…..Swans, for example, seems to offer “high end” products, and they even manufacture their own drivers, but their economies of scale evidently allow them to offer products at very, very competitive prices. I read where someone actually dissected a pair of Swans Diva 6.1 speakers clad in genuine rosewood, and found the parts quality (driver, crossover, cabinet construction, etc.) to be as good as the typical $20K system. Are these products overlooked by audiophiles because of their origin? Is it their low prices?

My question is, are speakers from the likes of Swans and Triangle truly “giant killer” products that are being overlooked by audiophiles for unjustified reasons?
seadweller
gdoodle
113 posts
 
I have no comments about this particular company but in general I continue to hear a number of problems with piracy and stealing of intellectual property when dealing with chinese electronics makers. I spoke to the head of a well known speaker maker at a recent industry event who related the story of how a MAJOR speaker maker outsourced production to china. audits revealed that tens of thousands of units were being billed to the US speaker manufacturer but were actually being sold out the back door to the chinese market - local factory pocketing all proceeds. Then the factory trademarked the US makers name in china and continues to sell those speakers in china under the US name - having paid nothing for R+D or licensing or all the other US costs such as retirement/benefits, etc.

Then you have a company like APEX (low end chinese stereos) which was charged with never paying licensing fees for technologies used in its products.

So in addition to a wage differential, I beleive china is not always competing on a level playing field - if they do not recognize the validity of US intellectual property law, trademarks, patents, etc.

I've recently bought a few chinese items and have been happy with them. but there is one item in which the licensing of the technology is in dispute and this troubles me. I do not want to steal from hardworking americans (or anyone for that matter.)
jeff_jones
418 posts
 
When you consider how quickly you get into diminishing gains in this hobby, and when you figure out that satisfaction is typically much more about personal preference than any other factor, giant killers become more abundant than actual giants. It is a long road though to really understanding what you want in the long haul, and you've got to get past the psychological things that push you to associate cost with quality or care what someone else thinks when they ask about your system.
lwood
61 posts
 
Tvad's on the money, buy used...buy new and for the most part it won't appreciate will it? Buy a used piece after some research and even if you don't like it you can usually sell it for same or near.

Concerning China, I've bought a Chinese integrated, Eastern Electric M520 and love it...after I threw out most of the chinese tubes! The designer didn't steal ideas, he used a 60 year-old 'freeware' design that Mullard created to sell their tubes...good old ingenuity!

Speakers, I've listened to many, even bought a pair sight unseen, but had a 60 day return option, Reference 3A de Capo's, marvelous speaker, but now I'm off to flea amps and they don't work with them.

A giant killer is in the eye of the beholder, or the buyer.

L'wood
sgower
27 posts
 
I don't believe there can be a giant killer in speakers. Most of the parts - drivers and electronic bits are made with automation and mass production so they cost about the same anywhere in the world. Same goes for particle board and wood veneers. The assembly doesn't take much time so there's is not going to be huge savings to building in Asia (5 hrs x $1 vs. 5 hrs. x $20 = not that much). For larger speakers, shipping from Asia would offset some of the savings. So the remaining cost driver is design and research time. So unless someone is Asia does something like the Canadian government did a few years back and sponsor R & D to spawn the industry, and then decide to give it away, I don't see a giant killer.
markphd
667 posts
 
Lots of good points above.

To suggest that quality is related to country of origin is prejudice of the highest order. As the Chinese increasingly learn what consumers in a market oriented economy want, they will become a formidible force given the competitive advantage they have in labour costs. They will very soon be in North America with their cars. No doubt they will be lacking somewhat, the same way that Hondas, Toyotas, and Hyundais were lacking when they first introduced their cars here. But those companies learned quickly didn't they, and it will be the same with the Chinese. It's sad the way the big three American auto makers are dismissing the threat of Chinese cars, the same way they dismisssed the Japanese and the Koreans.

A few years ago a Japanese motorbike manufacturer, I think it was Honda, entered the Chinese domestic market. The Chinese reverse engineered the bike and sold it at a fraction of the cost. Honda bought a couple, took them back to Japan, and analyzed the materials and construction. They then withdrew from the market. They concluded that the quality was just as good and that they couldn't compete on price.

Got a bit off track there. Anyway, there is no reason that the same thing can't happen with other products such as electronic equipment.

In addition to the labour cost advantages, I am sympathetic to the intellectual property issue noted in Gdoodle's post. You have an even greater price competitive advantage when you don't have to pay for R & D, or amortize the cost of same in your products. Just ask Hollywood what they think of the Chinese. It's a major international issue with China at the moment that goes far beyond our little world of electronics.
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