Anyone familiar with the Manger driver?

Use four Manger drivers per side (for loud rock music) and your ears will close very early because it will sound as dynamic and real as "live" rock music. With other speakers I feel the sound more fuzzy and dynamic contrasts are muffled so the listening fatigue comes a little later.

If I listen to loud music at home, the listening fatigue caused by conventional drivers (Seas Excel 2-way) makes hum, buzz, fizz and other noises in my head.

The same loudness from Manger Zerobox 109 makes only fizz and this effect terminates earlier.

I like my ears so I use Manger.

Up the thread a ways, in a reply to Essentialaudio (Brian Walsh), D edwards wrote:

"I cannot write an experience for you but no SoundLab is ever going to win an award for clarity, not with the reverb off the back wall (100% distortion)...",

I'd like to address that comment.

Twenty something years ago I held essentially the same opinion, but then my ears-on experiences as an amateur speaker builder didn't bear it out. Seems the ear doesn't always hear the way the mind reasons it should. So I spent many an hour in the public library poring through old audio engineering journals trying to gain a useful, if rudimentary, understanding of how the ear/brain system works.

Now for the record, we could certainly write a definition of distortion that would necessarily classify a dipole's backwave energy as "100% distortion", but our definition would be arbitrary and inconsistent with the psychophyisics of human sound perception. [Distortion perception is an area still being intensely researched by some of the top minds in psychoacoustics.]

To the ear, the backwave of a dipole is not 100% distortion; rather, it is reverberant field energy. If reverberant field energy were undesirable, concert halls and recital halls would resemble anechoic chambers (which they don't). As long as the reflections aren't too strong and distinct (diffusion helps here), you can have rich ambience and excellent clarity at the same time, as routinely demonstrated by live unamplified performances in good venues. SoundLabs are exceptionally good at getting the reverberant field right, something that live voices and instruments routinely do but few loudspeakers emulate. A spectrally correct reverberant field is conducive not only to natural timbre, but also long-term fatigue-free listening. I can explain why this is so if anyone is interested.

Also, note that a line source speaker like the SoundLabs generates a much higher ratio of direct to reflected sound energy at the listening position than does a typical direct-radiating point source speaker, even factoring in the backwave. This can be readily demonstrated by comparing the actual SPL measurements recorded at different distances with the predicted anechoic SPL, the difference being reverberant field contribution.

Arguments over subjective impressions are usually fruitless, but I will go on record as saying that in my opinion SoundLab electrostats have exceptionally good clarity and inner detail. Those who feel that a dealer's opinion can't possibly be sincere, discount mine accordingly. Apparently D edwards arrived at his negative assessment by reasoning rather than by first-hand experience. We all make assessments by reasoning things out to the best of our ability - there's nothing wrong with that approach, but in this case I think that his assumption regarding the effect of the speaker's backwave energy is incorrect.

Duke

Duke,

This thread is about the Manger driver and Manger speakers. Your marginally factual, misleading post and assumption about how I came to my opinion is poor form. Maybe you should ask me to clarify my position so you understand what I'm talking about.

Look I don't want to pick on the Sound Labs to address your assumptions and very creative interpretations. but let me suggest that you are behind the curve and the world is not "ideal" which you heavily count on to make your point.

Maybe you should measure your Sound Labs and see what they really do like I have, then maybe we can talk about it. As you took great pains to tell us about what we hear and what we measure maybe you'll find that what you think you hear and what your really hearing is just as incongruent.

Duke;

I know how convenient it is to think I've never heard a Sound Lab M-1 or U-1 but you forget that these speakers are almost unchanged for 25 years or more, It hasn't been difficult to get to hear a Sound Lab when their have been dealers and clients near by.....try to find a manger dealer 10 years ago!

Like Essential Audio Duke, please share your Manger systems experience with us so maybe we can arrive at a mutual understanding of my Sound lab (or any dipole speaker) comments. Or maybe you simply find my comments unimaginable.

There is much better ways to getting a proper reverberent field than spilling a 100% out of phase fullrange signal into the room and bouncing it off "spectrally correct?" drywall...

D Edwards,

I think it's more than fair to enter a thread to address what I believe to be misinformation, and that's what I did.

If I have misinterpreted your statements I apologize, and invite you to clarify. I also invite you to let me know which of my statements you're characterizing as "marginally factual" and "misleading".

Fo now I'll hold off responding to your final paragraph, as there may be a better place for that discussion. I have measured my SoundLabs and I can talk about it, but once again there may be a better place to do so.

How about this: Let's see if we can narrow down exactly where we disagree, and then if you are interested, we can start a thread on the subject and present our respective views. This might well end up being of general interest to others.

Rather than my risking mis-interpreting your position, in the interest of continuing our discussion in a dedicated thread, would you clarify exactly what you see as detrimental about the backwave energy of the SoundLabs?

Duke