A question concerning ethics

There are some simple and some not so simple aspects to this question.

Firstly, Audiogon requires that people register as a "Commercial User" if they fit certain criteria, part of which state:
-You will be buying and selling products for profit on a regular basis.
-You are a reseller or retailer of audio video equipment or related products.
-You represent, or are employed by a manufacturer in the audio video industry.
-You will be listing products on behalf of either of the above entities.

Admittedly, our criteria are based upon the selling/advertising aspects of this site, but they DO apply to forum participation as well. The above criteria seem to cover most users who clearly have "financial interests" in this industry. The examples of users that are being implied in this thread, should in our opinion be registered as commercial users and will be prompted to do so.

However, it is particularly difficult to make the distinction on THIS site, because almost all users will sell something at some point. Some "private" parties buy and sell many items each month, often concentrating on a few brands. For example, let's say Joe has one or two BB amps to sell. He may be motivated to "talk up" that brand, or even tubes in general, hoping to positively influence his sales. Or, Joe might down-play the quality of CC amps, even though he has never owned one. While the ads are online, readers could click on his Username and see that he is selling his BB amps. But after the ad has expired, readers of Joe's "advice" will not be aware that he was selling a BB amp at the time he posted the advice.

Further, the definition of a "dealer" or even "manufacturer" is changing everyday. Until recently, a "dealer" needed to prove the existence of a business entity, provide previous trade references, and have a retail store. But currently, there are many manufacturers who are willing to work with any person that is willing/able to buy some quantity of products. Similarly, "manufacturers" needed to have a large budget to produce, market, and promote products (ads, shows, etc). Currently, there are quite a few companies that market cables for example, over the internet, with little or no budget. The point being: there is no longer a set of hurdles for people to cross from a "private" entity to one with financial interests in a product (directly, indirectly, or despite of). Thus, it is more likely today that people will drift in and out of the commercial status overnight.

In summary, Audiogon DOES require users with financial interests in audio to register as a "Commercial User", and this status is displayed when a forum participant's Username is clicked. However, it is worth keeping in mind that Audiogon is indeed a marketplace, and that EVERY user's advice could be suspect. While we do try to "label" some users as commercial in nature, let us not forget that virtually everyone here will spend money or collect money for audio products - sooner, or later, or earlier.

Sean, having dealt with Jtinn in the past and will again in the future if the need is there I hope you did your homework on Jtinn. I contacted Jtinn about the Tenor amps about two months ago and he told me in he was a dealer for them. He was not trying to hide that information. Maybe he went about this in a way that doesn't please you but I don't think for a minute that he was trying to deceive anyone. He was upfront with me and that is all I can ask of a person. To name names of parties who are trying to deceive others I am all for but I would have to know this for a fact. Do you know for a fact that Jtinn was being deceitful? To ruin a good mans reputation without facts is as unethical as one can be. I have no doubt that your intentions are honorable and that you are trying to do the right thing for us Audiogon members but unless you know something I don't, I can't help but think you may have dropped the ball on this one. I can only relate my experience with Jtinn and they have been honorable.

Yes Great idea! I think it is only fair. Joe JC Audio

Sean,I've followed your posts in the past and found them to be cogent, articulate and technically well thought out. I'm not quite sure what, or who, lit the bunsen burner under your arse on this one. I can certainly appreciate your intent, but noble intent notwithstanding, it appears to have splintered into a personal agenda, seemingly far more narrow in scope than your initiating thread. My experience with Jtinn, although peppered with disagreements, has always been above board, and diplomatic. I respect his opinion, even when it differs from my own, but importantly, he's granted me the same. I've never felt he misrepresented himself to me, and whether he has on A'gon is frankly a matter of perspective, IMO. I see nothing in any of his comments that would incite such draconian comments as " manipulative rat". And if, from your unique perspective, this type of behavior is/has been going on, why single out one individual, and not only single them out, but denigrate them openly? And just who is this ubiquitous "we" you keep mentioning? I'm pretty sure Audiogon didn't light your torch, I've read their responses to this molehill turned mountain, and they seem to have it together just fine. So I guess that leaves other A'gon members, perhaps, or some covert audiophile vigilante coterie. If so, call off the snipers. If not, lighten up. It's beneath you (singular or plural, whatever the case may be)

Brulee & Mes, whether or not Jtinn aka Jonathon is an overall nice guy and a pleasure to work with has little to do with the questions raised about ethics and the need to clarify one's affiliations. I know more than a few folks in the audio industry that are both GREAT people AND make others aware of their business affiliations for obvious reasons. Unfortunately for him, he has somehow become the center of attention regarding a situation that should have been addressed a long time ago.

Let's look at this logically, step by step. I'll let the facts speak for themselves.

1) Is Jonathon involved with an audio based business i.e. audio retailer ?

2) Has Jonathon continually recommended products that would benefit his association with said audio business ?

3) Had Jonathon ever made clear his industry affiliations with said product lines prior to someone else bringing it up ?

4) Has Jonathon represented himself as an individual when he is in fact part of an audio corporation ?

5) Do you think that the average reader of these forums was aware that Jonathon was associated with an audio salon ?

6) Do you think that whether or not individuals were fully aware of Jonathon's affiliations would affect their perception of his statements ?

7) Is it not logical to assume that Jonathon has used his audio related business and its' influence to conduct transactions for merchandise that he has listed as a private party seller and / or to lure more business into said establishment ?

I base this last statement on the fact that the phone number for Chambers Audio is as follows: (503) 221 - 0464 Jonathon's number as listed in his ad's: (503) 221 - 0465.
For those that can't read between the lines, i would ASSUME that this is an extension of the main business line since there is only one digit difference.

I'd be curious to see your answers and the logical conclusion that you come to. Others are more than welcome to add their two cents also.

As to me being on a "witch hunt", i did not start this. It was brought to my attention by other readers of the this forum, some of them business professionals in the audio field. I did a little research based on those comments and forwarded it to a few others that are involved as regulars on this site to get their point of view. These people not only agreed that the situation needed attention and was a prime example of "lack of ethics", they were also able to contribute further information to my prior findings.

Since this "investigation" had turned into a group project, i chose to use the word "WE" in some of my posts. I did not feel right that others might perceive this as a "solo effort" since others had both initiated and contributed to the information that i had originally posted. Nor did i want Jtinn or others to think that this came out of any type of personal grievance or vendetta that i may have against him.

As to the baseless charges that i might have some outside motives or be exercising a lack of ethics myself by publicly posting information regarding this situation, i beg to differ. As i stated, this situation was brought to my attention by others and reviewed by others well respected amongst participants here. As such, i am not alone in my thoughts or findings. WE know what WE think is right and felt that it needed to be addressed and corrected. WE had hoped that a simple public "word of warning" ( the posting of this thread ) might suffice and that nobody's name would be muddied. That was obviously not to be. As to Jonathon's comments that i should have contacted him first, would one normally alert an intruder that they were calling the police or going for their gun ? I think not.

As such, the only thing left to do was direct confrontation in a public manner. By doing so, all Audiogon members and forum participants are aware of what is taking place and can voice their thoughts and opinions. After all, it is the group participation that keeps this place going. By dealing with this situation and taking steps to prevent similar mishaps, we hope to protect the members and other participants from further manipulation by unscrupulous individuals or professionals. I include myself amongst those that need or want to weed out charlatans or those with less than pure motivations.

As to my ethics, please be aware that i was asked to participate as a member of the Audiogon Panel. I originally accepted their more than gracious offer but later felt the need to remove myself from their company. I did this for two reasons. First of all, i do intend to venture into the field of audio in a professional capacity. As such, i did not want to run into a conflict of interest when making statements or recommendations. As you can see, things of that nature can turn into a BIG mess. Audiogon assured me that this would not be a problem as my affiliations would be on public display in my "bio" for all to see.

None the less, i never wanted any forum reader to doubt my sincerity as a Panelist or have to wonder how / why i stated what i did. Removing myself from that position meant that readers would never have to question as to whether or not i was "bought" or making statements for my own benefit. As many have seen courtesy of my public exchanges with John Atkinson of Stereophile, i have GREAT concerns regarding the ethics and purity of reviewers / industry professionals.

The second reason that i withdrew from being a Panelist is that i have quite a few "quirky" personal opinions that i did not want to reflect upon Audiogon as an organization or as a website. While i was assured that this would not be a problem, i tend to think that "guilt by association" is far more common than the good folks at Audiogon might tend to believe. Once again, by removing myself from the Panel, that problem would be solved. Just because i make a statement on their website does not mean that Audiogon, AA, etc... agree or condone that point of view.

With all of that in mind, i do intend to change my member status to reflect my business affiliations at the appropriate time. I would not want to mislead anyone. If i am making / selling / distributing, etc... i intend to be completely forthright about my affiliations with said products. I think that keeping things honest and up-front is the only way to do business. The folks at Audiogon are aware of my thoughts and feelings on the matter and will be advised as things progress.

As such, i REALLY do think that professionals within the industry need to be identified in their posts for several important reasons. This is outside of the fact that most people would simply like to know who they are dealing with or receiving suggestions / comments / recommendations from. Since this forum is here for our benefit as end users, i ask that ALL of you voice your opinions on this subject. It's also a quick way for Audiogon to get some instant feedback from its' members. Keep in mind that just because i'm near Chicago, you can't vote more than once or if your dead : )

A) Should each member be requested to register as either a private member or an "industry professional" ? I used that phrase strictly for lack of better terminology at the moment.

B) Should this info be displayed with each post that a member makes for instant "point of reference" ? This might offer some further insight to the readers as to where that poster may be coming from in terms of their point of view.

I hope that this helps all those concerned to better know how / why this situation has arisen and why it was dealt with in this manner. Sean
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