Carver Power Amps

Paulwp: Actually, your the one not listening. That amplifier has already been tested. And it didnt put out anywhere near its rated output of 380 wpc. Here is how Carver them selves rates the amp: "Two channel power amplifier; THX Certified; 380 watts rms/ch into 8 Ohms, both channels driven, 20 Hz - 20 kHz; 600 watts rms/ch into 4 Ohms; 1,150 watts/ch into 2 Ohms - IHF dynamic power" Now gentleman look at the last 3 words, "IHF dynamic power" . IHF Dynamic power basically means that an amp can for a split instant hit dynamic peaks of X amount of wattage. It could mean anything too, whether it be a 1khz test tone(which is how Carver rates their amplifiers)or a full spectrum burst(pink noise from 20hz to 20khz)or just a basic random musical passage.

Also taken from Danvetc little review he posts in his system thread was taken this: "Using pink noise, an oscilloscope, and digital voltmeter, we measured 22.59 Volts and 3.79 Amperes just below clipping, left channel driven into one Carver Platinum. Keep in mind that this real world test takes into account the back EMF that is produced by the speakers. Back EMF counteracts the power delivered by the amplifier. The measurement corresponded with a readout of 180 watts on the A-760x analog meter. Wow. Even in the test review they only get half of the rated output, and we dont even know the impedance! It could be at 8,6, or 4 ohms for all we know, but regardless 180 watts per channel is ALOT less than what they rate. If you look up above even closer youll see that they only test one channel! The test should have been done with both channels driven, and on this amplifier, both channels driven would probably have meant another 2-3 db less of clean output. So my estimate from the parts used, size of the ps,capacitance and the review even conclude that the amp is realistically putting out about 100 watts of true rms power. 180 watts if one channel is driven is what the reviewer got. Im about as close to dead nuts as your going to get from a quick estimate/guestimate.

BTW Im not a big fan of TAS or Stereophile, alot of their own testing methods are flawed at best, especially "The Aboslute Sound". At least Stereophile gives a true rundown with complete analysis of the products they test and post it using proper equipment. Not just a but of hyped opinion, but still regardless its not what I base my decisions on.

Now telling me that room treatments can naturally contour the curve of the sound is just ludicrous!

There are 3 types of sound treatments.

A. The kind that absord (soft wall panels)
B. The kind that diffuse (room lenses so to speak)
C. The kind that reflect (Sonus tubes)

Just by strategically placing all of the above 3 in different combos you can absorb,diffuse and reflect sound reflections from the walls ceiling and floor. You can actually gain or lose up to 12db of different frequencies by the type of material used. Telling me that contouring the reflections naturally in the room is impossible tells me how much you really know about "hifi".

Do this simple test. Go up to a bare wall and shout over and over again "I am a silly boy". Now put up on that wall a thick blanket. DO it over and over again. Notice a difference?? I bet your voice sounds muffled talking direct into the blanket. You've effectively blocked out about 6db worth of frequencies ranging from about 400hz and up. Just a simple example of how room treatments are extremely important. Go to the Sydney Opera house in Austrailia on your next vacation. Check it out, come back and tell me what you learned.

As for the RS meter. Its physically impossible to get an RS meter with the current mic to be +/- 1db with an analogue guage. With the mods you can get it to within +/- 3db at best. Still a potential for a 6db swing. Step up to the plate and get an digital RTA meter with a properly tuned mic. The RS meter is good though for ball parking along with some setup disks from Stereophile and other sources no doubt, I have used it myself in the past with good results. But in the end, the only one showing his ignorance is you. Its not by any means or coincidence that myself, the threadstarter and many others have stated the same thing about Carver products.

That was the review of the Carver that I mentioned in a previous thread I posted earlier.Man, talk about over-rated power output specs.!!

There has been lots of innuendo about individuals qualifications to making claims or statements that are ludicrous and ignorant. Just for the record I am interested in the background of some of the individuals making such critical comments. I will state my own background as I also know that there are some of you who are Physicists, Engineers, Electonics Engineers, etc.

BS in Electrical Engineering from Polytechnic Institute of Brooklyn (currently Polytechnic University), minor in Comp. Sci..

MS in Electrical Engineering from the same as above.

I have taken many courses in acoustics being that audio has been a passion of mine since I was a child.

I have worked and retired (kind of forced after 24 years) as an EE from Bell Labs (currently Lucent) and also did work part-time (many years ago) as a design engineer for a then well-to-do amplifier company. I left because the owners were apparently halucinating. They kept hearing things that just were not there. Many adjectives were made up to describe sound that was basically added distortion (just like the tube gearheads do nowadays, no offense). Don't get me wrong, I know that certain types of distortion can sound pleasant. As a matter of fact, many of these distortions are present in the natural world, such as the pluck of a guitar string. And worse of all, not everyone's hearing is identical, especially some of us somewhat older folks. I marvell when I play test tones and my children clearly hear up to 20kHz clearly and I don't hear it as loud, if at all. All of the above I have accomplished at the ripe young age of 45. I have been into audio since the age of 8. Thanks to my father, who actually allowed me to purchase (with his money) speakers, amps, decks, etc. for our family enjoyment. Incredible hobby for a child at such a young age. My first real audio system was Fisher 500C receiver with AR(?) speakers. We had this system until it was replaced by Rectilinear III speakers (how many of you remember these?) an Ampex reel to reel with a Dynaco ST120 (I think). There have been many, many systems in between.

Finally, yes, room design, and concert hall design, does take into account room dimensions, shape and reflection/absorbtion/diffusion properties. These things can be controlled to some extent to obtain a smooth frequency response. Unfortunately, most of us have been dealt our cards. We have no control over the room dimensions or shape therefore, we work to correct the problems that already exist without having introduced any sound equipment at all. Not always a simple task.

Please forgive me if some of the years don't match up. I'm going from memory and I'm sure the timeframe might be a little off.

All right, it's your turn.

I stand to my OPINION. Carver are rubbish. The amps that B Carver tried to sell in the mid to early 90s, before being pushed out of his company, were mostly sold more due to a careful commercial campaign than due to their audio merits, as someone already pointed out. Perhaps Sunfire amps actually have some brawns now, but these are not the same designs that I am thinking about.
ERRIVERA: Give anyone 20K to sell you a pair of amps.....back in the days(especially in 1989 when I was 17), in economic terms, a top flight Acura cost just about $40,000....Now, see how much the same model can easily cost, $57,000+....20K for a pair of tube amps in 1989 was a lot of money then and in today's dollar terms would be almost 30K+ or more....The fact that a designer can make a great sounding amp for 20K in that time is not necessarily proof that he is a genius. Returning to today, what is the price of a seriously REFERENCE class tube or SS amp, be it stereo or MONO? I cannot think about amps that cost more than the HALCROS for close to 20k or more....No tube amps, except those ridiculously priced Audio Note ONGAKUS come to mind, at 100k.
Come on, there are very talented designers that can make reference class amps at prices nowhere NEAR what those Carver Silver whatever Bob made back in the 1980s. This is not to say that they did sound really GOOD. I think when he took those amps to production, he was not seriously thinking about making money selling those amps....I think there were PART of his COMMERCIAL stategy...."Let me show you an amp that is less than xx lbs, and produces XXX watts per channel and by the way, it has The TUBE TRANSFER FUNCTION of those 20K amps..." If you look at the M amps of then, they had that logo printed on them SILVER 7 or 9 Tube TRANSFER FUNCTION.
I stand by my judgement, I have lived through the barrage of propaganda from the Carver Corporation when BCarver was there....his amps were rubbish to me back then and still are rubbish, in my vivid mind.

To Dalton: As someone else already pointed out, the P HC 3500 you have were the precursors to the JC 1 monos and thus have potential. The same amp, moded by CTC were the precursors to the raved REFERENCE monoblocks, at 5K. By the way ERRIVERA, I would rather keep 15k and have those JC 1 monos now than ever buy the Carver tubed beasts of back then(I do love tube amps.)

PAUL

Want more proof that the Carver A-760x is over-rated?
I have a stereo receiver in my bedroom, a very good one, a Harman-Kardon HK-3470.A high current model rated at 100 watts per channel into 8 ohms and 130 watts per channel into 4 ohms. I brought it into my living room and hooked it and the Carver A-760x up so that I could compare them head-to-head into my main stereo system.I also used a SPL meter from Radio Shack.I was shocked to say the least!Sure the Carver was more open,had better imaging, and a little better transparency than the Kardon.But, the Harman/Kardon had better top-end extension,the bass was dead-even!The mids sounded very similar,and they both sounded flat and lifeless at low volume levels.They both started audibly clipping at the same level on the SPL meter!They both started sounding compressed and harsh at levels the Parasound HCA-3500 took in stride!Head-to-head the Parasound handily beat them in almost every category,especially the bass, image depth, smoothness, detail, and top-end extension.I am so happy that I bought the Parasound.A great amp! A brute of an amp!