Carver Power Amps


Even though the Carver A-760x magnified current power amplifier was rated at 380 watts per channel into 8 ohms and 600 watts per channel into 4 ohms and lab tested at 500 w/ch at 8 ohms at clipping and 725 w/ch at clipping by Audio Magazine in 1997, it sounds gutless, especially in the bass, compared to a Parasound HCA-3500,etc!
Any opinions on why this is so?
daltonlanny

Showing 5 responses by errivera

I have had the Carver Silver 9t amps (550 w/ch) for about 10 years. I have also previously owned amps from companies like Audio Research, McIntosh, B&K, Adcom, Dynaco, Phase Linear, BGW, GAS, Tandberg, Carver, Krell (possibly one of the worse sounding I have had although I'm sure many others will disagree), Crown, Mark Levinson (I'm sure these were the best I ever owned),etc. I can honestly say that for the price, the Carver Silver 9t's are the best sounding amps I have owned. Are they better than the McIntosh, Audio Research or Levinson amps I owned? No!, but then again, I save over $8,000.00 with the Carvers.

If you will note from my prior posts, I also own a pair of Carver Amazing Platinum IV speakers. Coupled to the Carver amps I am sure I obtain better bass performance than most people, even if they are using a subwoofer. I know there are many, many other full range speakers/amp combos out there that can whip the pants off mine, but not at the price I paid for the Carver system.

Measured response in my room is pretty flat from 22Hz to 18kHz (using a Gold-Line analyzer at 1/12 octave in the low frequencies). I'm talking + or - 2dB over that range. Yes I use minimal equalization, but mostly room treatments. It has taken a long, long time to achieve this (I also don't move things around too much in that room) but the sound is really cool.

Sorry, but I just can't agree with Carver amps being so anemic as many of you say. Can they supply the raw longterm output of amps with 75 pound overbuilt power supplies, no! But they hold their own.
If the comment about, "at the same time that same poster has more money invested in EQ's and sound shaping equipment than proabaly the rest of the BB combined" was directed towards me, please note that I never stated what I use or how much I spent on equalization. The fact being (and we should stick to the facts, let's not read into things to make our own point) I use my pre/pro's equalization to correct for the minor problems that I could not fix with room treatment.

Also, the fact is that I spent almost $2,500.00 in room treatments. Not that much considering my room's overall response is so smooth. I hope that you are aware how much room interactions affect the overall sound of your system. I can't imagine that any of the AG forum members have not tried some sort of room treatment. In my opinion, fix the room before you fix the speakers/electronics. I'm sure almost everyone agrees with this however, it is usually too expensive to correct room anomolies and therefore ignored to some extent.

I'm sure my room could improve the sound of many audio systems out there. You should try fixing your room too.

And yes, the Carver amps still sound really good with my Carver speakers.
Gmoodl, I agree with you 100%. It's all about the music, not the electronics.

As far as Carver being a 'second class designer', I hate to bring this up, but Bob Carver has probably come up with more inovative designs than any of the high end audio designers. Any engineer, or anyone that can apreciate engineering can tell you that many 'high end' amps use principals and basic designs that have been around since the early 20th century. Carver has been an inovative and leader in the circuit design arena as pertaining to audio. I'm sure that if he wanted to, he could design an amplifier that could compete even the most highly regarded amps of today. Check out his modestly priced Sunfire series.

As a matter of fact, I remember that he designed a tube amp many years ago that sold for $20,000.00, and even the Carver skeptics had to concede to the sonic qualities of the amplifier.

Another thing, what is this continual reference to a watt from tube amps being 'greater' than a watt from a solid state amp; or that a watt from a Carver amp is less than a watt from any other amp. Sounds like voodoo is working it's magic here.

If I had to do it all over again, I would not have replaced my Levinsons or my Mac's. I think they are some of the best designed and sounding amps available. But that is in the past. Oh well.
There has been lots of innuendo about individuals qualifications to making claims or statements that are ludicrous and ignorant. Just for the record I am interested in the background of some of the individuals making such critical comments. I will state my own background as I also know that there are some of you who are Physicists, Engineers, Electonics Engineers, etc.

BS in Electrical Engineering from Polytechnic Institute of Brooklyn (currently Polytechnic University), minor in Comp. Sci..

MS in Electrical Engineering from the same as above.

I have taken many courses in acoustics being that audio has been a passion of mine since I was a child.

I have worked and retired (kind of forced after 24 years) as an EE from Bell Labs (currently Lucent) and also did work part-time (many years ago) as a design engineer for a then well-to-do amplifier company. I left because the owners were apparently halucinating. They kept hearing things that just were not there. Many adjectives were made up to describe sound that was basically added distortion (just like the tube gearheads do nowadays, no offense). Don't get me wrong, I know that certain types of distortion can sound pleasant. As a matter of fact, many of these distortions are present in the natural world, such as the pluck of a guitar string. And worse of all, not everyone's hearing is identical, especially some of us somewhat older folks. I marvell when I play test tones and my children clearly hear up to 20kHz clearly and I don't hear it as loud, if at all. All of the above I have accomplished at the ripe young age of 45. I have been into audio since the age of 8. Thanks to my father, who actually allowed me to purchase (with his money) speakers, amps, decks, etc. for our family enjoyment. Incredible hobby for a child at such a young age. My first real audio system was Fisher 500C receiver with AR(?) speakers. We had this system until it was replaced by Rectilinear III speakers (how many of you remember these?) an Ampex reel to reel with a Dynaco ST120 (I think). There have been many, many systems in between.

Finally, yes, room design, and concert hall design, does take into account room dimensions, shape and reflection/absorbtion/diffusion properties. These things can be controlled to some extent to obtain a smooth frequency response. Unfortunately, most of us have been dealt our cards. We have no control over the room dimensions or shape therefore, we work to correct the problems that already exist without having introduced any sound equipment at all. Not always a simple task.

Please forgive me if some of the years don't match up. I'm going from memory and I'm sure the timeframe might be a little off.

All right, it's your turn.
For those of you that still feel that Bob Carver is just another Joe as far as audio design goes, well here it is, from one of the most famous amplifier designers of all time, James Bongiorno:

A few words about the designer, James Bongiorno, and his creation:
"Twenty-Seven years ago James wrote a brochure describing the "Ultimate Amplifier" while at SAE. Of course, every engineer believes that their current work is the ultimate machine. However, it should be understood that this "Ultimate" design could only be as of the moment. The truth is that there never has been nor will there ever be an absolute "ultimate" perfect amplifier. Hard as we try, we get closer and closer but in reality, we’ll never approach perfection. Therein lies the enigma. Who defines what is perfect? What are the rules, the conditions, the standards, etc. The original Ampzilla set a standard, which has been copied, in topological form, for almost the last 30 years. Obviously something must have been right about it in the first place. Subsequently, the Sumo balanced topology has also been copied for the last 10 or 15 years. As we are now entering the new millennium, it is time for another breakthrough in the original tradition defined by the first Ampzilla.

The new Ampzilla 2000 is a radical departure in amplifier topology. Not many designers can make a claim like this. The only other designer capable of true innovation is Bob Carver although his application of technology and marketing go in different directions. Needless to say, James has created something truly new and innovative. All that can be said is, "It’s about time."

The new Ampzilla 2000 uses a completely new variation of the Forward Gain topology to achieve unprecedented improvements in linearity. As a matter of fact, the new circuit is so smooth, that it can be actually listened to OPEN LOOP, WITH NO FEEDBACK. Of course, we aren’t going to make it that way. The PROPER use of feedback is necessary in order to tie down all of the operating points so there will be no variations in performance from unit to unit. The new Ampzilla 2000 uses 12 250-watt output devices per monobloc. This is 3 times more devices than the original Ampzilla. In addition, since it is a monobloc, there is a separate 2500VA transformer for each. In addition, the amount of heat sink radiating area is 3 times greater than the original meaning that there is NO fan. Also, the B+ and B- supply fuses are EXTERNAL. Also, The entire circuit is totally balanced from input to output although there is a totally and uniquely new un-balanced to balanced converter for single ended inputs. Each monobloc has 100,000 ufd of power supply filtering with dual rectification as pioneered in the original Sumo's."

Please note the remark of this world renound amplifier designer regarding Bob Carver. If you are interested in reading the article, here's the link:
http://www.ampzilla2000.com/Amp_History.html