How close to the real thing?


Recently a friend of mine heard a Chopin concert in a Baptist church. I had told him that I had gone out to RMAF this year and heard some of the latest gear. His comment was that he thinks the best audio systems are only about 5% close to the real thing, especially the sound of a piano, though he admitted he hasn't heard the best of the latest equipment.

That got me thinking as I have been going to the BSO a lot this fall and comparing the sound of my system to live orchestral music. It's hard to put a hard percentage on this kind of thing, but I think the best systems capture a lot more than just 5% of the sound of live music.

What do you think? Are we making progress and how close are we?
peterayer
FWIW, low ordered distortion is pleasant, but it does obscure detail, and the ear tends to hear it as a fatness or warmth in the sound. Lower orders are the 2nd, 3rd and 4th.

Transistor amps have almost none of these distortions, but they are common with SET amplifiers. P-P tube amps on the other hand tend towards the 3rd and 5th.

Now it is the higher odd orders that our ears use as loudness cues. Anytime they are distorted, the amp will sound louder than it really is. This is why SETs will sound very 'dynamic' for their power, as normally they don't make much distortion, but if you push them (which is what transients do) then the loudness cues appear **but only on the transients**.

Transistor amps tend to have these higher odd orders all the time. This is one of the reasons they tend to sound hard or bright. Now its important to note that these harmonics do not have to be very distorted, usually 100th of a percent are audible, simply because these harmonics are so important to the human ear.

This, BTW, is why two amps can seem to have such different tonal characteristics even though they both measure flat frequency response on the bench. The addition of global negative feedback to any amplifier will increase the odd-ordered distortion slightly, which is why any amp with GNF will tend to sound brighter even though frequency response is unaltered.

(The trick, IMO, is to build an amplifier that does not use feedback, and use other means to eliminate distortion.)

The bottom line here is that distortion is always audible and to nearly anyone. Its just that it does not *sound* like distortion to us, often it sounds like a tonal aberration ('bright' in the case of many transistor amps, 'caramel' in the case of many tube amps).
Mapman,

taken in that context, all hi-fi is distortion and I'm sure we can all agree that when the reproduced signal is different from the original the effect is distortion.

What Frank has stated is that we hear differences in the sound due to an increase or decrease in "distortion" and if there is no distortion change then both systems will sound the same

What we are trying to determine "which distortion" , tim, thd, phase, slew, VCID, maybe Frank is describing the changes in the RLC makeup when switching out wire for eg. changing the original "distortion".

Regards,
Hi Fas42,
If you can accept the explanations that Atmasphere, Mapman and Weseixas has added to what you have stated, I find it acceptable(like that matters). Their combined inputs do explain the entire list of questions that I asked about why different items sound different as well as all distortion is unwelcome. I appreciate your input... I noticed that you are fairly new, I am not an oldtimer here either, but I have read back through several threads from the years and there are arguments about the difference of harsh or grainy. We are in a very subjective hobby, we all want to help with input and sound authoritative, but what I have found is...Everyones experiences are different and that doesn't make yours right or wrong, just different... I do try to be careful about seperating fact from opinion, I believe that is where my challange or disagreement came with you, but as you can see after some nice input, your points have been reinforced/corrected. Good Listening, Tim
Timlub, It looks to me like Fas42 places a lot of importance on soundstage and imaging. There are different types of 'distortion' that affect that- primarily of bandwidth. The better it is the more intact the phase relationships, which are what defines image location.

The ability of the speakers to 'disappear' is equally important to a system's ability to convince as is detail and tonality.

When feedback is applied to an amplifier, low level harmonic noise is injected into the output of the amplifier. This is nearly all high-frequency information. Now it happens that room ambiance in recordings is often also high frequency and is also low level. The result is that by adding feedback, the low level detail associated with room size can be masked by the harmonic noise floor that is present in the amplifier. In fact *all* detail below this level will be masked. That is why amplifiers that run little or no feedback often seem to have bigger, wider and deeper soundstages.