Depends on the music, setting and venue. I was in a very upscale hotel recently that had a jazz trio, bass, sax & piano. They were playing music that I was very familiar with and I was feeling quite good about how well my systems sounds compared to the live artist. Instrument placement, tonal balance is very good, I would rate literally 90%. When I go to a live orchestra. My system cannot convey, the real depth and stage presence that a live orchestra conveys over the large stage. Maybe I don't have good enough recordings on classical, I must admit, I am weak in classical recording and my jazz selection is quite good but my number drops profoundly. |
I guess it is all perspective, I can tell you that on the small jazz ensemble that I told above. Instrument placement is outstanding as is height and width, the realism of the instruments also right on. I have had more comments than I care to mention along the lines of "wow, it couldn't get any better without having the artist with you"... There is no way 5% draws those comments.... Of course..... being perspective?
Good Listening, Tim |
I've seen a few say that they play in bands... I don't play in bands, but I have done sound for a half dozen and still do sound regularly in churchs. My experience is that amplified live venues or music that goes through a mixing board really shouldn't count toward this discussion or at least be discounted. Not just the quality of the mics are in play, but the mix is changed to sound correctly in the venue being played, the snakes are typically over very long runs and mixing boards vary just as much as preamps to the recording. I clearly understand that this is nearly impossible to filter out, but the very best recordings for imaging are two channels mixed with the best of microphones. Anything with a mixer will throw more instruments into a false center stage.... Good Listening,Tim |
Irvrobinson, I was thinking the same thing. I noted above that I do sound quite often for live music. You think audiophiles are subjective, you should hear musicians talking about EVERYTHING changes the sound of their instruments. Stings, different brands of horns sound different, piano, piano strings, drums and different skins...... It does not have to be exact to sound live. I've had a celloist in and pianist seperately in my home, they both commented that they could have been fooled. I truly believe that if we are listening to excellent recordings where the scale of the venue is close to our living room that it is possible to come very close to the live experience, if any variables change we lose that live charm very quickly. My system doesn't fool anybody on larger scale music, but I still enjoy it. Somewhere in the above thread, it was mentioned of a live/recording comparison of a small group called Misty River. After I read that, I ordered this recording. On a couple of their songs (not all) you can hear the order of the girls placement when they sing, you can hear very specific intstrument placement and the tonal balance and mic work on this recording is quite good... Honestly, I would not be fooled on this recording, but It comes closer than I thought it would and as I made reference to before as single cello or piano can fool alot of people.
good listening, Tim |
I think quite a bit has been accomplished here... By sharing experiences, each of us has put that together and at least have a much better idea of what it takes to come closest to reproduce live as closely as possible.
I have come to believe that only recordings done in a venue of a small scale can be reproduced fairly faithfully in most homes, unless you have a very large room I have come to believe that it takes a reasonable amount of cone area to come close to faithfully reproducing some instruments, as mentioned above, large piano and drums. I believe that the recording is critical in reproduction.
I disagree with a few statements, I've been around alot of live productions and I've have heard recorded piano that came very close to live... We were using alot of cone area (Legacy Focus), Big tube amps, etc, etc. But in general, I feel like if we all put together our experiences that this has been a beneficial thread and I have enjoyed and appreciated hearing from everyone. Good Listening, Tim |
Hi Hifihvn,
Drummers wear headphones because they are mic'd and are using the headphones as monitors. Drums get very loud, up to 110db. I have not heard any strings that can cause hearing damage. Granted most of my live listening is to cello and violin & piano and it is in a venue capable of seating 600 people, but as I stated earlier, I run a sound board fairly regularly. I have never been subjected to threatning levels from these instruments.. and I do tend to duplicate spl's at home vs live(non amplified) venues. The peaks are short term and is required to really get the dynamics that have been discussed here. I completely agree that the wink link is the recording. Good Listening, Tim |
Well Hifihvn, you just enlightened me, I didn't even consider the violin at the ear, nor am I experienced with any large scale concert type instruments.
and yes, we have headphones that allow some hearing. We do have a sound chamber that drummers can use(we tend to allow the drums on stage), it uses speakers as monitors and the drums are mic'd and sealed from the outside world, so the drums are completely by mix. Thanks for the info, i'll check it out. Tim |
Michigan State???? Thats a whole bunch of musicians playing as loud as they can, but 120db...@ 100 foot back??? 121db is our threshold of pain. 100 ft back?... it would have to be near 130db at the instruments.... I would have to question that one. In the past, I was a sanctioned IASCA judge(car stereo), I've owned my own store and have built several VERY loud systems, (160db) I remember being in a vehicle that hit 154. I wore ear plugs and sound deadening headphones over those. It moved so much air that it sucked the air out of your lungs. Ok another story. I just can't see non amplified instruments getting that loud in an open area. Never say never, I'm not questioning you, I'm sure that you read it, but I have to question the validity of the source. If you had 100 players of various instruments all playing @ 100 db, the total encompased sound pressure level would be 121db @ the instruments..... I have no idea of what that would be 100 feet away. |
Michigan State? Lets get the right mic's, get the perfect recording and play that one in your living room! Maybe I don't play at live levels. |
Thanks for the links, he quoted even higher for the marching band, 125db @ 100 ft away. With a starting point of 100db per instrument, it would take 256 players to make 124db @ the instruments or 1024 players to make 130db... I don't have any idea of how spl falls off in an open outside area, Lets just say that they did it... That is much easier and its over. Now Peterayer, can your system reproduce the marching band with better than 5% accuracy? |
Al, My gosh, that was hard to find, Searched literally 50 sites, But I found it and bought it, Thanks, I'll be listening in about a week. Tim |
Hi Peterayer,
I was really being a bit facetious. I can't imagine a more difficult task but to record something so loud and over such a huge area and make that come out anything like the real thing. I've read through this whole thing also and I agree with you brother. very subjective, lets just enjoy our tunes, Good Listening, Tim |
Any way that you look at it, High power matched with high effiency speakers will produce dynamics. And back to the ops original question, Dynamics go along way toward making a convincing presentation.
and Fas42, I have found on large scale music that room size does matter in reproducing that large sound stage. Maybe its just me not figuring out in 30 years how to set up a system in a smaller room, but I definately get a wider more natural presentation on large scale music in a larger room. Granted, the largest room I have experience in is about 20x30 ft (6.25x9.25 meters), but on large scale music, I have definately experienced a larger sound stage. My current room is 14.5x22 ft and it does a wonderful job with small scale recordings, but I haven't been able to duplicate some of the large scale stuff that I have heard in the past with the same recordings.
Cone mass & power also matter in larger rooms. If I understood what Weseixas was saying? |
Hi Frank,
My back wall also dissapears. I get a soundstage from my speakers to maybe 10ft behind my speakers and they are 6.5 ft from my back wall. My speakers are 106 inches apart and on some recordings, I do get a soundstage extended a couple of feet past my speakers in width, But never can I take an orchestra that its natural width would be say 25 feet and get my system to reproduce this. Within these limits, I get Outstanding instrument placement on width as well as depth. If anyone has any ideas on how to improve...
I'm all ears. |
Hi Frank, Well,I've read all that you've had to say and am sorry to say that I just don't buy it. Yes,my speakers absolutely dissapear. I don't want to discount your opinion, but I've been around this game for a long long time. I have found a long time ago, even when I started in this business in 1979, That measurable distortion is so far below our hearing that it was unconceivable to hear. Most tube amps measure higher distortion than solid state, yet tube amps nearly always have better staging than solid state. I don't know what type of distortion that you are quoting, i.m, thd?
What equipment today has distortion ratings that are a concern? |
Thanks Hifihvn, you might be right, I was using old Sumo gear. In July I bought a Coda CL preamp. It is so superior in so many ways. I have an MHZS cd player that I've modded so many times that I have finally tore a solder trace. I had bought a NAD C515BEE for $50.00 broken and a new laser was only $30.00...fixed, so I haven't even tried to repair my tubed cd player with my new Coda. I really need to get off my duff and finish this. I'll try to lay my hands on a decent dac also, thanks for the suggestion And I'm with you specs mean little or nothing to me. Also, Hifihvn, i've noticed in some old threads that you have alot of classical music, I am loaded with Jazz and only a couple of classical recordings, Can you give me 3 recordings that I can't live without?
Good Listening, Tim |
"If you have two widely differing systems that don't distort then they must sound identical".
So, when 2 different cone materials sound different on speakers, one is more distorted or when you roll tubes for a completely different sound, one is distorted, or when a designer changes from bipolar to mosfet or vise versa, they sound different because one has distortion or when we add spikes to a speaker and the sound cleans up a bit, we have lowered distortion or 2 identically spec'd phono cartridges sound completely different, its because of distortion????? Does Silver copper or gold in wire carry more distortion??? They all sound different. I can go on and on.... Your comments do not hold merit. I'm glad that you have a Holodeck, distortion matters overall, no argument, but it is not the one thing catch all.
Sorry Frank, I can't agree on this one.... I've been convinced of a few things on here...Thanks Atmosphere & Almarg, but you've got a long way to go to change my mind on this one. Good Listening, Tim |
Good explanation Atmasphere. Agreed
To you and Weseixias also |
Hi Fas42,
If you can accept the explanations that Atmasphere, Mapman and Weseixas has added to what you have stated, I find it acceptable(like that matters). Their combined inputs do explain the entire list of questions that I asked about why different items sound different as well as all distortion is unwelcome. I appreciate your input... I noticed that you are fairly new, I am not an oldtimer here either, but I have read back through several threads from the years and there are arguments about the difference of harsh or grainy. We are in a very subjective hobby, we all want to help with input and sound authoritative, but what I have found is...Everyones experiences are different and that doesn't make yours right or wrong, just different... I do try to be careful about seperating fact from opinion, I believe that is where my challange or disagreement came with you, but as you can see after some nice input, your points have been reinforced/corrected. Good Listening, Tim |
Hi Atmasphere,
Ok, no disagreements...Feedback reduces distortion and have seen changing feedback levels change the effects, no arguments....
I guess, what I am questioning is... Labeling Distortion as a catch all phrase. It doesn't work. |
Hi Mapman,
I was speaking to an old friend of mine who built equipment 35 years to 25 years ago and hasn't built since. He was just telling me that he just might start building again considering the improvements in parts ie, speed, linearity, etc. I'm sure that you have heard some terrific old amps. After talking with him, I believe that even the old engineers could come up with some terrific products today. I believe a good engineer is a good engineer, we just must wade through so much mediocrity to find them. Good Listening, Tim |
Weseixas...
KT88's? UT or Triode? |
Maybe we... someone... anyone can come up with a chart and modifiy it until there is a concensus...
I agree that it is near impossible to make a system sound truly "live", but I still say 5% is rediculously low.
Edison's 1st phono may be 5%, but What is
Tonal Accuacy worth?
What is a soundstage worth? and as the sound stage improves, does the value go up?
What is timber worth? P.R.A.T?
Do dynamics increase your score?
When an uneducated(audiophile or musician wise) person sits in front of your system and their jaw drops.... Would that happen at 5%? I think not.... Actually a verifiable rating system would be something that we would all love to have.
Wouldn't you like to hear a 93 vs a 27? |
Merry Christmas everyone, enjoy your families, see you back in the threads... Tim |
