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Amp shootout.....Tenor 75wi verses Berning ZH270

in a recent thread there was much discusion of the above 2 amps, whether the Berning was indeed an OTL, and which one might be better.

i have no opinion as to whether the Berning is an OTL. but today a Berning ZH270 owner brought his amp over to compare to my pair of Tenor 75wi's. my system is OTL friendly, with easy to drive speakers, so the Berning's acknowledged advantage in driving difficult loads was neutralized.

these amps have very similar power, the Tenor is 75 watts into 8 ohms, the Berning is 70 watts into 8 ohms. otherwise it is not really a fair comparison....the Tenors are $19900 a pair, the Berning $4500, the Tenors weigh 70 pounds each, the Berning weighs about 10 pounds.....it seems like Goliath verses David. the result is somewhat closer than that.

we played three different discs and each of 3 people listened to their disc in the sweetspot. the Berning owner felt that the Tenor had a more dimentional sound, deeper soundstage but felt the Berning was equal in bass extension and detail retreival. the independent listener felt the Berning was excellent for the money but not in the league of the Tenor in any paramter. my perception was similar to the independent listner; that the Berning, at $4500, is amazing in it's top to bottom excellence, dynamics and musicality.....but....does not do things like the Tenor. the sense of space, detail in the soundstage, texture and microdynamics of the Tenor are at a whole different level.....and they better be for $15000 more.

like the Berning owners, i am a shameless Tenor lover and consider the Tenors better than any other amp i have heard at any price, assuming a reasonably easy load to drive.

the Berning is more like a $8k to $10k amplifier.....and Berning owners should be justifiably proud of their amps.

i did think the Berning had slightly more bass slam than the Tenor, but with much less bass articulation and extension than the Tenor.

we spent the rest of the enjoyable afternoon listening to some great vinyl......an enjoyable time had by all.
mikelavigne
oneprof
147 posts
 
This is what we need to see. Rather than arguing about what to call a piece of equipment, compare them for sound. Great posting. However, you didn't mention whether you played around with the settings on the Berning. In my system, switching the Berning from the normal to the medium to the low setting REALLY changes the sound. Did your listening panel have the same reaction with the Berning in all settings?
Again, we need to see more of this type of shootout.
allanbhaganinfo
121 posts
 
Wonderful Del, well written indeed.

Tireguy, I am glad to see that your Little nuts are metric :) a sorry try at a garage joke :)

This is what audio is all about, nice people trying things out, with real un-biased conclusions.
Thanks so much guys.

Allan
twl
3,251 posts
 
Very interesting thread.I agree with Kris about the NOS tubes, but if the Tenors were stock, then the Berning should be also.If the Tenors had tube upgrades, then the Berning was at a disadvantage with the stock Russian tubes. I know NOS tubes made a great difference in my Berning. What kind of tubes are in the Tenors? I essentially agree with Mike that the Tenors should come out on top, given the price disparity, and maybe the higher price included better tubes. I do think that a better comparison would bave been the Berning Seigfried 300b SET ZOTL. The zh270 is a push/pull amp with feedback and that circuit is not quite up to the Tenors' circlotron. The fact that it even got into the ball park is quite a testament to its quality. Most listeners would prefer a single ended sound to a push/pull. I notice no mention of a transformer induced ring, phase shift, or treble rollof by the reviewers about the Berning. So regardless of the argument about OTL/nonOTL the Berning apparently did not exhibit these typical transformer induced characteristics. Mike, we appreciate this shootout you did, as it gives us the chance to gain info from your experience.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
kriskosiba
33 posts
 
Del,

I highly recommend you change the input tubes. If you think the Berning is good now, it will be on a different level with good tubes. You would be amazed at the difference.

Kris
del
31 posts
 
You know, I completely forgot about the feedback switch on the Berning when at Mike's - we just ran it at the normal setting. I can say that I much prefer the normal setting to medium or low feedback settings with my ML SL3's - the sound turns soft and muffled to my ears compared to the norm setting. (It drives my SL3's beautifully with no problem at all, by the way.)

Oneprof: This is the first tube amp I have owned, and I do not have a broad experience in tube amp listening. The other two participants in our session did not notice any of the negative characteristics you mentioned. We all commented on how good the Berning sounded - it was really neutral in a system that ruthlessly (I wonder where Ruth is?) reveals any coloration. The independent listener commented that the Berning seems to have a great combination of the organic sound that tubes give plus the versatility of driving difficult loads and low maintenance/hassle usually found only with solid state gear, and was amazingly good for the price.

What I learned most from this interesting (and enjoyable) comparison was that the Berning will provide a neutral organic sound like (but not as good as) the Tenors with the advantages of a much lower price and more flexibility in the choice of speakers. However, if one's goal is to assemble a state of the art system, the Tenors (not the Berning) are at the end of that road - but buying the Tenors should be accompanied by a commitment to buy the best of everything else in the chain, otherwise it is like buying a Ferarri to go check the mail.

Allan - My feelings will be hurt if I am not invited to the Berning prototype shootout!

Cheers,
David
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