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Amp shootout.....Tenor 75wi verses Berning ZH270

in a recent thread there was much discusion of the above 2 amps, whether the Berning was indeed an OTL, and which one might be better.

i have no opinion as to whether the Berning is an OTL. but today a Berning ZH270 owner brought his amp over to compare to my pair of Tenor 75wi's. my system is OTL friendly, with easy to drive speakers, so the Berning's acknowledged advantage in driving difficult loads was neutralized.

these amps have very similar power, the Tenor is 75 watts into 8 ohms, the Berning is 70 watts into 8 ohms. otherwise it is not really a fair comparison....the Tenors are $19900 a pair, the Berning $4500, the Tenors weigh 70 pounds each, the Berning weighs about 10 pounds.....it seems like Goliath verses David. the result is somewhat closer than that.

we played three different discs and each of 3 people listened to their disc in the sweetspot. the Berning owner felt that the Tenor had a more dimentional sound, deeper soundstage but felt the Berning was equal in bass extension and detail retreival. the independent listener felt the Berning was excellent for the money but not in the league of the Tenor in any paramter. my perception was similar to the independent listner; that the Berning, at $4500, is amazing in it's top to bottom excellence, dynamics and musicality.....but....does not do things like the Tenor. the sense of space, detail in the soundstage, texture and microdynamics of the Tenor are at a whole different level.....and they better be for $15000 more.

like the Berning owners, i am a shameless Tenor lover and consider the Tenors better than any other amp i have heard at any price, assuming a reasonably easy load to drive.

the Berning is more like a $8k to $10k amplifier.....and Berning owners should be justifiably proud of their amps.

i did think the Berning had slightly more bass slam than the Tenor, but with much less bass articulation and extension than the Tenor.

we spent the rest of the enjoyable afternoon listening to some great vinyl......an enjoyable time had by all.
mikelavigne

Showing 4 responses by del

del
31 posts
 
I am the lucky Berning owner who got to hear his amp in a killer system - Michael is right, the Tenors are better. The Berning is very very good, but the Tenors have more presence, more three dimensionality, more substance in the sound. The Berning is stock - no changes in tubes. Sources were Linn CD12, Marantz SACD-1, Nordost Valhalla interconects, Placette passive remote vol control, Opus MM speaker cables, ELrod pc's, Hydra conditioner, and Kharma Exquisite 1D Speakers (I think that's right). The Berning has only single ended inputs so we used Linn Silver ic's to connect it from the Placette, the only difference in set up from the Tenors. We listened to Bill Evans, Chet Baker, and a Brazilian music sampler, plus some other ensemble jazz.

My feeling is that the Berning is close enough to the Tenor that the differences would be difficult to discern unless the associated equipment was on par with the quality of the Tenors. (I would certainly like the opportunity to test that theory someday in my own system!) There is no doubt that in Mike's system the Tenors are absolutely magical - I have never heard recorded music reproduced so well. And listening to 45rpm vinyl is the best, bar none.
del
31 posts
 
You know, I completely forgot about the feedback switch on the Berning when at Mike's - we just ran it at the normal setting. I can say that I much prefer the normal setting to medium or low feedback settings with my ML SL3's - the sound turns soft and muffled to my ears compared to the norm setting. (It drives my SL3's beautifully with no problem at all, by the way.)

Oneprof: This is the first tube amp I have owned, and I do not have a broad experience in tube amp listening. The other two participants in our session did not notice any of the negative characteristics you mentioned. We all commented on how good the Berning sounded - it was really neutral in a system that ruthlessly (I wonder where Ruth is?) reveals any coloration. The independent listener commented that the Berning seems to have a great combination of the organic sound that tubes give plus the versatility of driving difficult loads and low maintenance/hassle usually found only with solid state gear, and was amazingly good for the price.

What I learned most from this interesting (and enjoyable) comparison was that the Berning will provide a neutral organic sound like (but not as good as) the Tenors with the advantages of a much lower price and more flexibility in the choice of speakers. However, if one's goal is to assemble a state of the art system, the Tenors (not the Berning) are at the end of that road - but buying the Tenors should be accompanied by a commitment to buy the best of everything else in the chain, otherwise it is like buying a Ferarri to go check the mail.

Allan - My feelings will be hurt if I am not invited to the Berning prototype shootout!

Cheers,
David
del
31 posts
 
Well, I went back and read the manual for the Berning. He says that the low feedback setting raises impedence and reduces speaker damping. To quote from the manual:"Speaker damping relates to the control that the amplifier has over the position of the speaker diaphragm. High damping has the effect of causing the speaker diaphagm to start and stop quickly, and its sonic attributes also show up most dramatically in the bass. High damping is likely to give a tighter, dryer, and more analytical sound and low damping is likely to give a more open and resonant sound."

We left the Berning on normal feedback, which is the low impedence high damping setting. That is probably the source of Mike's comment about the greater bass "slam" of the Berning - it was stopping that big 13" woofer in the Kharma's on a dime. Mike says the Kharma's are a flat 8 ohm load. In the specs, the manual says the output impedence of the amp is 1.8 ohms @ normal, 3.8 ohms @ medium, and 8.7 ohms at low feedback setting. Looks like we should have at least tried the low feedback setting, since that would come closest to matching the Kharma's load, and it would have softened the bass because of the lower damping. Oh well, guess we'll just have to revisit this another day.

By the way, I have never heard the Lamms, but I can say that the combination of the Tenors and the Kharmas and Mike's room treatment produces the best, truest, feel it in your gut bass I have ever experienced outside a live performance (and then only if you are in the real sweet spot in the auditorium). Maybe Mr. Kamm could tell is what other equipment he was using in his comparison.
del
31 posts
 
As one who was there, I would have to say that the difference in sound between the two amps was not subtle - the Tenors were clearly the more satisfying. I think tubegroovers comments about Mike's system are right on point - it has been assembled as an organic whole, with a clear purpose, and Mike has, through both luck and effort, achieved a wonderful sounding system - really magical at times (we listened to a 45prm recording of Louis Armstrong performing St James Infirmary that lingers in memory, wonderful even there, as the best recorded music expereince I have ever had).

My main purpose in taking the Berning over there (other than as an excuse to hear some good music on a great system) was curiousity about just how good the Berning would sound with components that gave it no place to hide. I certainly did not expect it to sound better than an amp costing 4x as much in a system built around that amp.

What I did discover, to my delight, is that the Berning sounded great. I can build around it by upgrading my other components for quite a ways up the ladder before having to make a change in the amplifier, because I have quite a ways to go before the Berning is the weak link. I have only been at this about 18 months, and so am enjoying the journey quite a bit. They are many roads to Rome, and many combinations of components to create a great system. Refining those choices is a lot of fun, not to mention listening to some great music and meeting terrific people like Mike. This has been a rewarding thread for me, as well, because I have gotten to know some other Berning owners.

Cheers,
David
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