A question I'm sure you've never heard before....


I am spanking new to this site and board. I suppose if this is anything like any number of the various subject boards I've been on, this will be a topic that the regulars will have all heard and have hashed and rehashed, but here goes.

I am doing things a bit differently than some, I would guess. I've started with my front end and have resurrected my old Linn LP12 Valhalla with Ittok LVII (and yes, I do plan to upgrade in the future but not right away). I got an exceptional deal on a Benz H2 "Woody" so I bought it. I have a McCormack DNA-225 SS amp. Now I want to add either a preamp and phono stage or a combined unit such as a CJ PV10A, or the like. Would like to spend maybe $1600 tops (used- I prefer to let others take the depreciation on most components and I have heard that Audiogon is a reliable place to buy). Then, I will select speakers and, finally, speaker cables to match the speakers and interconnects to complement the other components with the largest budget earmarked to the preamp/amp connection.

I like medium to heavy rock (but not metal), jazz (mostly sax and piano), blues, and, like most everyone, female vocalists. My room is about 18X26 feet (bigger than what I'd prefer for a stereo room). Stereotypical plaster walls, carpeting, drapes, wood, metal, stuffed furnishings.

I wanted the McCormack for various reasons and now I want to match to it a TUBE preamp and phono stage, or a combo unit. Looked at some EAR products, which I really liked, but their price did not like me. I really would like to stay in the $1600 used neighborhood if possible.

If anyone out there has experience in this area, please lay your recommendations on me. After I make this part of my decision, I will be back to pick your brains more with regard to speakers! I know you all just dying for that time to come. HA... At present I am contemplating PSB, Proac, Sililoquy, and Martin Logan ā€“ and, if I can get a great deal, maybe Dunlavy. I plan to spend about $3K on the pair of whatever I get.

Anyone wanna chime in on the preamp/phono part for now? Iā€™d be obliged to all with constructive opinions ā€“ those that want to poke fun of my meager outlay can remain quiet and, instead, sell me their cast offs on the cheap! ;-)
motdathird
i think with my 35 yrs of high end audio expenses and experiences you're putting the cart before the horse..get the speakers you like first...you won't hear the preamp difference if you're not into a good set of speakers...if you like rock and roll forget the martin logans i had monolith 3's i prefer my old but excellent snell alll'sover them more impact power for classical the martin logans are great and also if you like high db levels i'd say to stay with non electrostatic's my preamp is a audio research sp 10 mk ll but that cost alot more than your budget...
Thanks for everyone's help so far. I am settling toward an EAR 834P Signature phono stage and possibly the EAR 834L preamp or possibly another line preamp.

Doc, I appreciate your years of experience and understand from where you are coming - and I thank you for the speaker advise. My dilemna is this. The speakers will be one of the only pieces that I will likely buy new. And if I do buy used it will probably be locally to avoid hundreds of shipping pound costs (not to mention damage). As such, they will also likely be the only part of the system for which I will have the luxury of auditioning before purchase. I figure if I get a good match between the front-end, amp, and pre/phono, I will then be able to "sample" a variety of speaker sets before settling on one. Also, it seems that the number of speaker choices available to me within my price range are much larger than the number of pre/phono choices.

Plus, let me ask this. How can I determine if any speakers that I will want will be suitable (recall that I have already an amp and front end but nothing in between)? I suppose I could try to find a place that has MY existing amp AND existing turnable setup and try various speakers with different combinations of pre/phono equipment.

I imagine this brings up the question of whether it is better to find a good balance with amp/pre/phono first, and then select speakers, or to buy speakers one likes on another system's "guts" and then either match that same system or "audition" a variety of electronics component to suit the speakers. I have heard arguments both way.

One thing I have come to realize VERY quickly about this hobby: THERE IS VERY LITTLE TURE CONSENSUS. One persons dream is another's nightmare. One persons perfect approach is anothers throny path. One persons ideal amp is another's end table.... I saw one thread where someone asked people's opinionof the top 10 speakers....about 30 posts yielded 30 different answers.

Don't get me wrong, though. I sincerely appreciate your opinion - both when it does and does not square with my own!
Agree with Drw that speakers should come first & then build the rig around them. This has always been my preferred approach if at all possible. But you are admittedly approaching this differently, which is OK of course.
Ome magical combo that I stumbled upon is a Golden Tube preamp driving a McCormack amp; the staging was incredible & highs were real sweet. Try to find a Golden Tube SEP-2 or SEP-3 preamp with an internal phono stage. Even the SEP-1 would do (but has no remote) I just saw one advertised here for real cheap. The SEP-3 shouldn't run over $750 used, with phono.
The probability of finding a shop having the same lineup that you have at home & with the speakers that you want to audition is low. You'll probably have to bring speakers home (the best way to audition) but then ethically you should buy from that dealer if you like his speakers. You might also consider bringing along some of your own equipment & cables to a dealer stocking the speakers that you want to try out; that will match up everything except your listening room itself (there's still a big sonic difference between the dealers' place & your own though). Find a dealer that has used speakers available. You can get more of your investment back out of them when it comes time to upgrade.
Read the hifi press about good matches to the mccormack amp. sam tellig in stereophile has had some experience with the amp in comparison to others. also the 225 was reviewed in the absolute sound recently, you might look there for sonic impressions, and use them in picking a speaker.
however there is no sub. for listening.
i agree about the choice of a tube preamp. the basic idea is, this kind of setup will generally be more forgiving, and give benefits in soundstage depth, harmonic information, etc. than a straight ss route.
Just decide in advance, I think, how much of a fanatic you are going to be about resolution capabilities in your pre. Go for the best possible sound, without too many tradeoffs in neutrality. For example, you might grow tired with a relatively syrupy sounding product like the C-J PV-10, which might not let you get to the benefits of the mccormack amp in terms of detail. On the other hand, you might decide once you have a tube pre, that you like tubes best all around, as I have.
These days, product matching is crucial and very difficult. Every speaker designer uses a different amp to voice his product! Find out if possible how the speaker has been voiced.
Don't be afraid to go 'new underground'. Remember, people often sell things because they have upgraded, which means you might soon want to 'upgrade' on what they're selling you (ask yourself: why are they selling this if it is so great?)...of course, this goes for almost everything, new and used, on the market!
There are some amazing products on the net by little known designers, selling new, that will better the well known market brands like C-J, in terms of absolute sound quality for the price paid.
check out
antique sound labs
decware
bottlehead (build your own!)
avahifi (audio by van alstine)..great value w/ lots of features that never comes up used on the net (good sign, also sign of less exposure than the C-J name)
also:
counterpoint 3.1 and 5.1 are outstanding for the price (around $500 used if you can find), though they each have their own sonic signature (5.1, tubey but spacious and a great phono stage; 3.1 solid state power supply so a little 'faster-sounding'...also these products can be upraded by the designer for great bang for the buck.)

Finally, if you are totally committed to keeping the mccormack, the best route of all is: forget about the pre for the moment (buy a cheap passive like the OBH-12 for the time being) and find the speaker that you like the best.
If you like clarity and detail, try the Thiel 1.6 or B&W NT series of ever 804. If you like more full range and a slightly softer overall sound, hard to beat Vandersteen (McCormack uses these in many of his demos, so a good bet!!)
These are highly evolved designs that are difficult to go wrong with!
My 2c
(yer head spinning yet?)

I recommend passive control. I have a McCormack DNA 0.5 and am very happy with the Purest Sound Systems 500 passive control unit. Some of McCormacks early preamps could be run passive, and they were said to sound good with the power amps. Here's what I get from the passive control: No agressiveness like I have in ARC LS3. No noticable HF distortion, relative to SS ARC. Mega information. Revealing of upstream components. Funny, but with a golden tube power amp I prefer the ARC Ls3. I think the tubes roll off the ARC harshness, and they need the gain.

Robert