How popular is Wire Transfer.....

One of the earlier posters said that Paypal was structurally set up to allow Buyers to defraud Sellers but not vice versa. This has not been my experience. I once used Paypal to pay for a piece of electronics which the seller never shipped. The buyer stalled providing me with shipping information for several days and by the time I figured out what was going on and complained to Paypal the funds were gone from the sellers bank account.

Paypal provided me with a form email offering congratulations that I had won my dispute. It went on to state that unfortunately they were not able to obtain the funds, and it stated that I have no further recourse. It did state that Paypal would continue attempting to recover the funds, but they specifically stated that they will not disclose what actions they are taking. This was 4 years ago and there has been no further communications from Paypal. I have since learned that this is a very common Paypal experience. Also, to add insult to injury, Paypal will not give the buyer the confirmed address of the seller, so that you can take legal action against the fraudulent seller, even though the seller is provided with the buyers confirmed address.

I disagree about the safety of bank transfers, and I do not understand why a seller requesting this would be raising a red flag. As I recall to arrange a bank transfer, the buyer must be provided with both the seller's personal address and the address and phone number of the bank which will be receiving the funds. The buyer can then call the bank and ask questions before sending funds if there is any discomfort. The only way I can see that a seller can be dishonest in any of these buy sell arrangements, is by keeping the money and not shipping the equipment. This can happen regardless of what payment method is used.

A dishonest buyer on the other hand has numerous ways to defraud the seller. He can make a Paypal payment using a stolen credit card. When this is discovered, Paypal will withdraw the funds from the account in which the money was deposited. If that account is empty, your bank will take the money from other accounts you may have in that bank. The dishonest buyer can send a fraudulent money order or bank draft. You deposit this into your bank account and ship the equipment. When the bank eventually finds out that the MO or bank draft is fraudulent, they will take the money out of which ever of your accounts in their bank has sufficient funds. If there are no sufficient funds in any of your accounts they will contact the authorities just as they would if you were writing bad checks.

For this reason I greatly prefer bank transfers from buyers with good and lengthy feedback, and I am happy to purchase from sellers with solid lengthy feedback using bank transfers. I agree that postal money orders are great, but the buyer is still taking the risk that the seller will take the money and run.

I think the Audiogon feedback system is the only thing which can give any of us a degree of security in these high ticket transactions, and discussions like this serve to remind me what a valuable service Audiogon is providing.

All the best,
Dennis

Dennis saved me a lot of typing as I was about to enter this discussion and post all the points he's made.

One thing I didn't see mentioned, PayPal is frequently requested for overseas transactions and sometimes the buyer wants the item shipped to his work address so someone will be there to sign (signature required for high value).

ANY address other than verified PayPal address limits sellers recourse should the product be lost, stolen or broken.

PayPal can work for or against both buyer and seller. Also, overseas transactions are a premium, especially if currency conversion is involved and then usually another 4% fee.

One of the earlier posters said that Paypal was structurally set up to allow Buyers to defraud Sellers but not vice versa. This has not been my experience. I once used Paypal to pay for a piece of electronics which the seller never shipped. The buyer stalled providing me with shipping information for several days and by the time I figured out what was going on and complained to Paypal the funds were gone from the sellers bank account.

Paypal provided me with a form email offering congratulations that I had won my dispute. It went on to state that unfortunately they were not able to obtain the funds, and it stated that I have no further recourse. It did state that Paypal would continue attempting to recover the funds, but they specifically stated that they will not disclose what actions they are taking. This was 4 years ago and there has been no further communications from Paypal.

In support of Dennis, the EXACT same thing happed to me and through Ebay, the company that is connected to PayPal.

In my case it's only been three years, not four but I'll wager neither Dennis or myself will ever see our money again.

If a thief wants your money he'll go to most any length to get it. There is no guaranteed system that protects both buyer and seller. 8 years ago some thief in Florida established a bank account using false ID. He then listed great buys on gear, and sold the gear dozens of times making victims of dozens here on AG. All AG could do was shut down the sellers AG account. There was no recourse with any law enforcement investigation for the thief had used false ID. I'm retired LE, so even I am was not immune to getting burned. Bottom line is, seller or buyer, someone is rolling the dice and there's always the possibility of being burned. I agree, the feedback does give one a better idea of the character one is about to do business with.

Paypal contract states it does not honor 3rd party contract sells. Therefore I as a seller refuse to do overseas transactions. I'll sell the item to the buyer and ship it to a US intermediary chosen by the Int'l buyer with the understanding that my obligation ends once the item is signed received by the intermediary. Of course it's the int'l buyer's intermediary who is responsible for shipping the item to the int'l buyer and not mine. Paypal is very upfront about this in the rules, so if you're doing int'l sales you're rolling the dice for Paypal won't back you. Personally, if I can't find a buyer in the US I don't need to sell it overseas. But if I do have a rare int'l sale that sale and my responsibility for it ends on US shores, not elsewhere. Be smart, do your homework, that's the best anyone can do for there's no failsafe system. Such is life.

Thanks to all who have sent "in depth" explicite replys to the wire/bank transfer question,
Len W