You Cant Buy It but you Can Build It

@kingharold     That is an interesting looking system. Wish you had better pictures though.

@sns   I know that is the general consensus but way to many people have come through here, many with great systems, with praise for the setup for me to doubt the quality this particular PC produces. I am not clever enough to tell you why this one works so well I can only say it does. Remember that the hi def driver from the audio card maker Reaktek is what made it outstanding and not the box as it came from Dell.

  So what exactly are you using and why?

@sns      I agree with noise and funny things can cause them. Going to all SSD hard drives eliminated some and my corded mouse was guilty of more when moved while the stereo system was on. Beyond that there was and is no hum or noise audible when everything is turned up and the room is dead quiet with no music on. If I can't hear anything under those conditions I don't worry about things and leave them alone. As small as that Macmini is I can see you having interference where the much bigger PC box my Dell Precision resides in has components far more spaced out.

  @jasonbourne52  I know deep bass can be had that way but I still believe that a single fold horn with a cloth pleated woofer that hardly has excursion visible at fairly loud levels generates the cleanest sound. It would have been far easier to go the way you went as there are many DIY plans out there for these little box subs. At the end of the day precise sound was the main consideration for my build after getting to the wanted bass notes. There is a superior presence to lower notes that the club thump large excursion boxes just can't do, in my opinion. I know some of my friends really like the club thump though and build or buy just for that. Your small sub in my world would do Star Wars good but not pipe organ music.

@sns  OK I will bite. So how do you know this has existed on your setup and what did you do to stop it. I would also point out that just because you have had problems in this area does not mean I have thus experiences may differ.

  I guess part of my verification process involves people bringing their favorite music with them when they visit and telling me what they hear. Of course one could say that there is too much time between when they listen at home and when they listen here for the comparison to be valid. Over time though and with differing ears I reach a conclusion about my work and none complain about fidelity. 

  At some point in time even if others have found a way to tweak output to be better in their eyes that does not mean the next person will like it. I am really close to not looking for further improvements as I am quite happy with what I have and any fiddling is for academic purposes without much hope for real improvements. You come up with good suggestions and specifics that would apply to my system, and not be MacMini specific, I just might try them. My suspicions right now are that your tiny little PC has issues with interference mine won't have due to extreme overcrowding of components.

@sns   Oh I do have an open mind I just assumed with all your PC warnings you had troubles to solve. You mention a list of things you did to make your MacMini right so I figured you felt there was a need too.

  I agree on the laptops can be a problem and the Dell precision laptop I have does not sound as good as the  Dell Precision workstation I use as a music server does. I am not sure where you get the idea I am using a laptop from.

  If you are talking about internet or wifi music streaming I don't do that. I have not been impressed with streaming I have heard being any better at best than what I do on my own.

 Yes I do believe many "audiophiles" do waste money and have all sorts of gear to fix their problems that resulted from the choices they made. I think there is a common mindset that exists that determines x number of boxes or pieces of gear and special wires are needed to have fidelity because peer opinion research says so. I thought that with two way speakers for years and believed three ways were the only way to go until I got a set of serious Klipsch Pro two ways.

 "I always thought diy most open minded and experiential learners, sounds like you've made up your mind."

  Indeed I have until someone shows me something better. I have a question for you. Why are you so sure what I have done is not as good or better than what you have done? How can you be so certain you have the best answers and that mine are not when we have never heard each others systems to be able to judge that? Fairly bold final answer assertions on your part.

@mijostyn  No actually I feel no vibration as it is made out of 25MM Baltic Birch. I am aware of cabinet resonance problems. If you are ever near southern middle Tennessee I invite you to stop in and hear for yourself. Until you have your comments are just assertions of what you think my horns have to be doing. I will grant you the large size of  horn to sound good and go down below 30hz is not something dainty and petite. Yes very few are out there for size considerations as most are not willing to go large. Does not mean a horn can't sound really good. I believe an all horn system done right is unbeatable.

@phusis  "produce a smooth, effortless and enveloping bass, quite different even from direct radiating designs."

 You bet they do. Hard to convey the impact they make to people who have not heard good horns. One of my favorite sound effects to play as a demo for people is Japanese Fireworks. Just like real life and the sound is so precise and quick and if you want to turn it up there is even a concussive wave that will hit you. And drums and stringed instruments with none of the lag time moving massive cones with large excursion create. Closest to real life as I have ever heard.

@sns  I suppose it is possible. I have people who stop in on occasion to hear the big horns that tell me the same thing. I encourage them to bring that gear they think so highly of with them next time and lets see. No one has brought gear with them but they have come back to listen again. Right now I am not dumping a bunch of cash on things that might work better when peer review plus my ears and curves tell me what I have does work.

How in the world is it that audio seems to draw those who know everything and also know the singular best way? I listen to what others say and incorporate good things I find into what I build and do. My list of those I listen to though grows fairly small over time and the ones I take seriously were vetted through the results they delivered in either their advice to me or their personal work I CAN VERIFY by putting my hands on it.

  I see @mijostyn that you have many opinions and I disagree with many of them as my real world experience sitting in my shop right now says you like to throw stuff out there and sound authoritative, but you are not. You have passed today into the read for amusement but not for info category.

  You seem quite stuck on subs but remember my big horn set is roughly -5db at 27hz and drops off quick after that and is not a sub but part of a two way system for 27hz to 18.5khz sound.

 Do you honestly think I will take you seriously when the evidence, the physical evidence that is, is in my shop and you say it can't be done. It's a shame you have never had a chance to hear good horns in that 40 years of experience you tout.

Working with a Faital HF146R on a machined Baltic Birch horn with a 6" depth, 1.4" throat and a 7" x 14" mouth. The detail is stunning and I doubt this driver will ever make it to commercial gear. The machined horn will never be massed produced either since they are cut on a mill one by one. To expensive for bean counters though they seem to have no trouble charging outrageous prices.

 You are right that this is beyond most with equipment and skill constraints but where there is a will a way can be made. Also tinkering with B&C's DCX464 coaxial driver and it has promise too. 

  There is tremendous satisfaction to be had when you do things right. I figure most audio types have never heard a competently built system and have only factory products to judge by.

"So much for being a minimalist."

  What I was thinking when I said this was how few pieces of gear I have compared to many here. It is not minimalist though in terms of implementation. Once you learn DSP though you can store up to 30 profiles you can switch to at any time.

I bought my Dell off the refurb site with a good Quadro card in it I was intending to use for my sound and graphics. This workstation is also the PC I use for my machining and design programs. I never could get the Quadro to work for sound and was not real happy with what I was hearing. What made all the difference was finding out about the Realtek high definition driver and installing that. It was a whole different world. I also have  Dell Precision laptop and the sound from it is merely OK. I guess I was lucky on the PC pick where sound is concerned. Going on 4 years with it and I have had zero trouble and the sound is so good I am not looking further.

  Some odd things along the way that did effect sound. My secondary drive was a spinning platter and it had a noise you could hear when things were otherwise dead quiet. SSD's fixed that and I expect your SSD's are quiet too.

 The other odd thing was a corded laser mouse. When I moved it around you could hear it also.

  When this PC dies I might find out how hard it could be to get a good sounding one and only time will tell.

  Which Dell did you get?

"Don't you lose some resolution  if you do it like that"

No I don't think so. I have had people pull the gear rack out looking for the hidden box that makes things sound so good and there is no hidden box. Gain can be further adjusted if needed in the Xilica.

 That stepped attenuator looks interesting. I am working on another two way system with a passive crossover and the HF side needs attenuation to not get ahead of the bass bin woofers. What Ohm value did you choose and why?

"I have never believed computers can or should ever be considered in the same league as dedicated audio equipment. At best, it is a hybrid compromise that never truly makes the grade."

  Until I stumbled across the Realtek Hi Def driver download I might have agreed with you. The PC now can go as high as 24 bit 192KHZ. I never use 192KHZ anymore and stay with 96KHZ on my files after running music files through Audacity. I have had loss of fidelity when going past 96KHZ. The problem now is finding good enough music files

Of course not all laptops or PC's are created equal and as mentioned the laptop did not sound as good. Laptops do have their place though when dialing in a system with REW and a UMike. You can sit right in your preferred spot and dial things in on the fly and no up and down across the room nonsense. So what has been your experience that caused your bias?

I have a pair of EV DH1A my friend gave me to try though I have yet to do so. Everyone who has had those have nothing but praise for them. The guy who gave me those has been after me to put a set of the LMAHL V2 tweeters I make in there and do a three way but so far I have been happy enough to not bother doing so.

I am crossing over at 650hz.

"One senses the vitriol from some of the comments, because this - all of it, actually - rubs audiophilia quite the wrong way"

If pure sound quality was the metric they use I can only think they have not heard such a system. I suspect however that there is a lot of snobery involved and it is just "not possible" that serious hobbiests can build better than the high end audio store offerings.

"The Fr has 95db sensitivity. Anything higher than 95db is not going to work in my system,."

 I find that when I have to put a lot of watts into a speaker to get decent volume I have also lost some fidelity. On a two way double 12" woofer + a horn top I have built the least I considered was 99db on the woofers. These things have great crsip sound and tremendous fidelity and even with Bach organ up pretty loud you have to put your hand on the cone to feel the excursion since visually it is almost imperceptible. I also prefer cloth accordian surrounds which only come with more efficient woofers.

 I have about lost interest in 15" woofers which just don't sound as tight to me as a good 12". Impacts on percussion are sharper and realistic acoustic string resonance is more defined for example. 

Eminence Kappa 12A. The really nice thing is it is one of the cheaper woofers also but at 12" I doubt you can use it.

@mijostyn it does go low. The difference is the proper tuned cabinet and good cloth surround efficient speakers make for yummy bass without all that excursion that tends to add distortion also. Bass seems to be enjoyed by most in two flavors. One is crisp and clean sound like what you would hear in person. The other is a sort of club thump that is not as accurate but appeals to many. It makes my ears hurt just thinking about what you describe and that is not what I am seeking at all.

@simonmoon   That is my experience too although I designed and built the box for my double 12" woofer + horn speaker. 25MM Baltic Birch box + drivers and for a bit over 1G I have something that beats the doo doo out of 24G speakers I hear at the Nashville fancy speaker store.

 I used acoustic foam in my box as I was more concerned about standing waves and not box resonance.

@mijostyn  On the two way with 12"double woofers I go down to around 35hz before serious drop off. The all horn setup however throws that rule out the window and now going down to 27hz is no issue and that gets me virtually all the common instruments. A horn will easily go down to 20hz or lower if I were to build one for that with little excursion at any volume I am willing to listen at. Really deep bass is not pleasant to me and I avoid it. I have never built with being a pure subwoofer as my intent.

  The Super MWM bass bin mentioned at the begining of this thread for instance was derived from an MCM 1900 Klipsch set designed for 600 seat venues.It can just loaf along and give more db's then I can handle.

@jssmith  RE the Realtek I had forgotten about Tom's. I used to go there for graphics card reviews but never thought about audio. I have heard a number of systems and the definition I heard with the Realtak was what kept me there.

  I find it interesting though that Tom's likes the idea of a PC based music server. I can mix and match and have a set for the day and another for tomorrow grabbed out of almost 2TB of music. I would have it no other way.

 I am going to try that Mini DSP HD on my smaller two way soon. I hear good things about it and it sure is cheaper than Xilicas.

I agree with the idea to save money is the only reason to start DIY you might not save any especially if you place a dollar amount on your time to learn. I am fortunate in that design software and a Haas VF-4 for milling were allready paid for from my metal working business so the tools to make things and skills were there.

DIY can still be cheaper though if you go with proven designs and flat packs and the associated proven drivers and beat the pants of virtually all the audio store offerings. #1 problem I have seen with inexperience is the idea you can just take all that stuff you have accumulated over the years and cut holes in wood, assemble and it will just sound wonderful. Does not work that way. 

While it does use large excursion woofers from Tang Band, Danley makes a sub that goes down to 17hz with 8" woofers. THSpud | Danley Sound Labs, Inc.

There are plans to build these out there and the one I have which was given to me unfinished remains that way since real deep bass does not interest me much. Horn subs operate by different rules and what you need is a proper design. To go down low with small excursion woofers in subs means much more box volume and some pretty good length.

As Phusis says low excursion works just fine in the right horn for low bass. The Danley is a pretty small box so it has to have large excursion woofers to work.

You can indeed get great sound but perhaps not from them all. The key as far as I am concerned is did you download the Hi-Def driver to use with y6our card? Made a really big difference for me.

  @jssmith  suggested this site and my experience with Realtak sound cards on my PC agrees with the Tom's review. Audiophile PC Sound - The Real Cost of Hi-Fi - Tom’s Hardware | Tom's Hardware

  What sound card and PC did you try?

@mijostyn  You are kind of debating yourself here. I have slight academic interest in subs that go that low and figure 27hz is enough for me. And I don't care how big the box is because I treasure precise low distortion sound over large excursion thump. We have different goals here and your 8 sub system sounds OK for Star Wars but I would not want to listen to my two channel music on it. neither of our positions are incorrect they address different goals.

  I am sitting here thinking of your needs a lot of power statement. I don't happen to have that need and 100 watts is enough to run one out of the room with my current setup.

Assiduous application of solipsism. Your reality not mine.