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Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations

Would love some feedback / Denon DL-S1 / phono match / cart recomendations

- Vinyl newbie and need some help

- Friend has a brand new  Denon DL-S1 for $600 - good deal?

- I have a Mark Levinson No.326s preamp and just bought the dual mono MM/MC Phono module boards. They are the identical boards from the No,32 preamp and read that was a very nice sounding phono preamp.

- No.326s only has a couple settings 42db or 60 db and 47k ohm or 200 ohm load

- I picked up a used Bob's Device 1131 thinking it would help as my No.326s has limited setting options and read the 1131 might not work well with this cart. That this cart is tough to get the most out of but can be great.

- Should I get another cart? Was it a mistake getting the 1131 SUT. I read the No.326s sounded nice with this SUT so went for it but don't know enough to really know better either way but trying to learn.

- The No.326s phono boards has these little gold terminal screws with easy tighten by hand little knobs on the heads of the screws to add either capacitor or resistor to make the phono very adjustable but would have no idea how to figure out how to use that but thought to mention

- just wondering if this is a bad cart for me to try with my phono and SUT set up and any feedback about anything related to a cart would be super appreciated if anyone reads this. Thanks

more info if helpful below but not need to answer my question just thought to add it :)

______________________________________________________________________________________


I just finished up a full system re-fit with some tweaking here and there still to do but I am extremely happy with the sound I’m getting today from my new to me system. I sold my entire old system that was tubes and high efficiency speakers and got new to me: speakers, amp, preamp, speaker cables and upgraded digital transport and got a new turntable. Kept my DAC never changing that. Love my DAC. 

This system is the best I’ve personally ever had. I’m pretty psyched - so psyched I just added a turntable. 

A modern Version of the VPI Prime Aries with HRX Feet, 10" 3D Arm and Base, Prime Signature Platter, Ring and Motor. 

I am looking for a cart and my friend has a new Denon DL-S1 for $600 he also has a  used but good shape Clearaudio Accurate mc cart for a few hundred but i never heard of this one and a  van den Hul blackheart grass hopper which I know nothing of.

I thought because the Denon is new never used that was the best option but any of you know anything about the other let me know please.
  
Would love some feedback / ideas / thought recommendations and help. I’m a digital guy and want to give vinyl and honest to goodness try.

As stated above I just purchased the dual mono Phono board modules for my
Mark Levinson No.326s linestage so it’s now a full function Preamp and added a Bobs Device 1131 SUT and both were attained a very reasonable cost which was great!

Just not sure if these carts will go with my phono and SUT.

Rest of my System:
https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/5160

- Magico S5 Loudspeakers
- Pass Labs X350.5 Amplifier
- Mark Levinson No.326s Preamp/phonostage
- Bricasti M1 Special Edition DAC
- PS Audio P10 Power Plant
- Kubala-Sosna Emotion SC’s
- Nordost/Cardas IC’s
- Assorted PC's Verastarr/Cardas

- Digital PC based front end that I have been tweaking and evolving:
- Sonore microRendu 1.4
- Full Suite of UpTone Audio Gear
(2) x LPS-1 Ultra Capacitor PS
JS-2 Linear Power Supply
(2) Regens - ISO/Amber
- (8) Canare / Oyide DC cables
- (2) Breeze Audio 12v LPS
- Tellurium Q Black Diamond Reference USB cable
- Curious Regen Link USB Cable.

This Digital Front End beat out: Lumin, Antipodes, Naim and Auralic servers. It needs everything to work so well but man does it work great. My hope is that a turntable can complete and wish some luck I end up liking it better. That’s why I’m asking for help. I want to put my best vinyl foot forward 

** Back Ground info**

** Room is **
14 x 24 w/Cathedral Ceilings - 16 Foot a peak

** Music likes **
Assorted Music but no metal or loud hard rock anymore really - not much Large Scale classical either but everything else. I listen just loud enough to sound its best but not a loud listener. I enjoy normal levels.

** Likes / Priorities **
Transparency - Delicacy - Linear - High resolution - microscope but not sterile not etched or lifeless -some natural warmth and life to the music is key  but love that see through transparency and love precise soundstage - remove as many layers without being clinical - tight bass - hate flab - but don’t need worlds greatest slam but love speed and accurate bass while being musical.

** Perspective **
I’m only a couple months into this new system and I was struggling to get the right Preamp and tried a half dozen or so searching for the right balance and the one that could bring my new system together like only the perfect matching preamp can do. Each system is different so really it must be heard to know it’s what you want. I believe in the Preamp and knew If I could find the right match it would change everything. Well that was the hope.

To make a long story longer the Mark Levinson No.326s preamp did this and more. I was hedging my expectations based on the disappointments of the others I tried and failed but the No. 326s nailed it and honestly it an incredible Preamp and then some. I was so happy I decided to upgrade and add the built in phonostage option and SUT and Turntable here we are trying to chose a cart.

Really appreciate any help you can provide! I know this is kind of long but wanted you guys to know where I’m coming from! If you would like more info please let me know - all comments and feedback are most welcome and deeply appreciated :)




128x128Ag insider logo xs@2xfsmithjack

Showing 29 responses by rauliruegas

Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @cleeds : Facts and arguments are over Agon forum and other forums where I and other audiophiles posted and post.

Problem with those information links are the date of those " studies ": 1973/1998.

Things change in " extreme " in all those years, we have to remember that we live in year 2018 and today electronic design, electronic parts ( pasive an active. ), excecution quality levels already changed for the better: way better than in 1973 ! ! ! 

@analogluvr and maybe you are still living in 1973 along the corrupted AHEE. Never mind, keep in that way. That does not harm any one.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @analogluvr :  Your link for " an open mind folks " comes from here: http://www.effectrode.com/  and nothing of what we are talking here in home audio system hobby where exist phonolinepreamps and amplifiers, all system items in the system link are for home audiophiles.

Well your "  electronic engineer " just " speaks " with out showing any arguments or foundation that can attest what he posted:


Advantages with Tubes:

  1. Superior sound quality.  """ for whom and why? """
  2. Highly linear without negative feedback, especially small-signal types. "" like the LOMC cartridge signal? """
  3. Smooth clipping is widely considered more musical than transistors.  " again. who says that and why? ""
  4. Tolerant of large overloads and voltage spikes.
  5. Characteristics highly independent of temperature, greatly simplifying biasing.
  6. Wider dynamic range than transistors circuits, due to higher operating voltages and overload tolerance. """ Has no idea, only talks. """
  7. Device capacitances vary only slightly with signal voltages (Miller effect).
  8. Capacitive coupling can be done with small, high-quality film capacitors, due to inherently high-impedances of tube ciruits.
  9. Circuit designs tend to be simpler than transistorized equivalents, which are greatly complicated by the need to linearize intrinsically non-linear transistors.  " More complicated because almost any one can design tube circuit but SS devices is only for experts and not for your " electronic engineer . ""
  10. Operation is usually in Class A or Class AB, minimizing crossover notch distortion.  " that electronic engineer is almost an ignorant or stupid one . """
  11. Output transformer in power amp protects speaker from DC voltage due to malfunction and protects tubes from shorts and blunts back-emf spikes from speaker.   """ so what? """
  12. Tubes can be relatively easily replaced by user.  """ so what ? """



Advantages Transistor:


  1. Usually lower cost and smaller than tubes, especially in small-signal circuits.
  2. Can be combined in the millions on one cheap die to make an integrated circuit, whereas tubes are limited to at most three functional units per glass bulb.  "" your way ignorant " electronics engineer " was thinking in integrated circuits. LoL ? ! ! ! """
  3. Lower power consumption, less waste heat, and high efficiency than equivalent tubes, especially in small-signal circuits.
  4. Can operate on lower-voltage supplies for greater safety, lower costs, tighter clearances.
  5. Matching transformers not required for low-impedance loads.
  6. Usually more physical ruggedness than tubes (depends upon construction).


Transistors disadvantages:

  1. Tendency toward higher distortion than equivalent tubed circuits.  """ ignorant and stupid """
  2. Complex circuits and considerable negative feedback required for low distortion.  """ ignorant and stupid """
  3. Sharp clipping, in a manner widely considered non-musical, due to considerable negative feedback commonly used. Does not gracefully roll-off or gently compress; instead, cuts off sharply, suddenly and abruptly with extremely hard edge.   """ ignorant and stupid.  """
  4. Device capacitances tend to vary wildly with applied voltages (Miller effect).


It's a waste of time with your " expert ".

and that's your reference?, now I can understand whom you really are. Something worst that the AHEE.

Good for you.

R.

Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @analogluvr :  Almost everyone attest ( maybe you don't. ) that the R2R audio item is and has the best quality performance levels to listen music in a home system and you know what: R2R mainly generates odd harmonics not even ones.

In the other side odd harmonics can do some kind of hardness/harm to what we listen but that depends on two harmonic characteristics: its SPL and its order generated by the electronic item.

"""  are if you were piece of crap solid-state goes to 1 MHz, that's libel to do more harm than good. """

Look how sure I was that you will gave those kind of wrong answers that in my past posts you can read:


"""  in Spectral the the frequency range goes over 1 Mhz ( if you ask or tell that we don't need that so wide bandwidth then you just can't understand why and my recomendation is that you ask directly to Dr. Johnson Spectral owner. )  """ he is the designer. With very low distortion levels that your or any OTL just can't do it and between other things is why tubes are out of reality and that musical argument you are talking about but that you can't understand it.

You posted:

"""   Japanese solid-state receivers from the 70s and 80s had total harmonic distortion numbers of 0.001. According to your philosophy they will sound much better than my atmosphere OTL.  """


NO, don't put words like that " according to your " because it's not. That's what your limited brain say not me because the Spectral is today unit and its quality levels performance is way beyond your " terrible " OTL can't even approach it. Problem with your OTL is not if its design is OTL or not the problem ( that you just can't understand it. ) are TUBES. Got it? ? ? 

Please talk with Spectral designer and then come back here and share what you learned if any !


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.





Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : You was not very specific to whom of those two A90 sellers gave you that trade offer. I'm sure that the one that owns the Clearaudio can't accept it because the S1 is a " riculous " trading if you let it go the A90 and own the Clearaudio and any SUT is not attractive for audiophiles that has good knowledge level.

In the other side that Steelhead is a BS against the up-dated 326S, yes you read : "  its a great phonostage. ", for whom: for non-audiophiles that have very low knowledge level  and that still think that this new 2018 year in reality it's not but 1960. One of those gentlemans is analogvur that I'm still waiting he shares a wider and true explanation of the tubes supremacy.

Btw, I don't said that SUTs sound bad what I'm telling is that a good high gain design is way superior alternative.

In this same thread I posted: whom of you ( the experts. ) can tell us why exist the SUTs? and till now no one of the SUT proponents shared his explanation. I'm certain that some audiophiles know the rigth answer to that simple question. No, I'm not to share my history about that I posted more than 3-4 times in forums.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @analogluvr : Here are your beloved tube lower distortion with tigth linearity. If you want it you have to pay for this Signature Phonolinepreamp: 45K for the line unit and additional 36K for the phono unit and additional you have to buy the IC cables and its heavy degradation to the cartridge signal. Btw, beeen tube design of course that come with internal SUTs in favor of cartridge signal degradation. Yes, there are people that bougth it and are very happy with tubes as you are.

I’m refering to the Lamm units where the inverse RIAA eq. deviation is of 0.3db ( terrible for say the least. ) when any 2K SS unit measures no more than 0.1db and my unit only 0.012db ! ! but the Lamm output impedance is the " awesome " 1.3kohms: go figure! and THD in the 1% order.
The line unit is no better with a very limited frequency range between 5hz and 140khz ( and you pay for this 45K. ) and nothing more to add because with that is more than enough.

As member of the AHEE ( like me. ) you only repeat whta they teached and never what is the reality.

Have you a coherent explanation of these " debacle " of your tube dream?, then come and share with us.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.




Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : @folkfreak posted to you:


"""  Of course it will be fun to learn but don’t expect it to be easy and you should do everything you can at this stage not to make it more complicated than it needs to be.... """

he is rigth and problem here is that the LP alternative is the more imperfect one from the recording pick-up signal at the microphones all over when that signal comes out from the speakers.

Now, taking in count that fact and that you said are a roockie in the LP alternative then : how can you discern between somany different opinions in different analog subjects when you have " no idea " of any of them?

In your thread there are true experts like @dgarretson , @enginedr1960 or @folkfreak  and other gentlemans that I really don't know their " pedigree " level about and as always exist the stupid one like me.

You and no one I knew or I know can learn and has deep contros in the LP alternative through fforums because is truly different than the digiotal alternative or choose electronics. You will need not months but several years to achieve a quality level performance that can competes against today best digital alternative.

Perhaps the fastest gentleman to learns in deep about the LP alternative was and is @dougdeacon and he took some years for that.

Btw, that A90 on sale was compared by the owner against the Goldfinger Statement 2 that its price tag is over 15K, this sole comment by him deserves your personal attention.

Ortofon was the first that brougth a comercial LOMC cartridge  but additional to that one of the best regarded cutting head machines used in the LP recording proccess were the Ortofon ones ( Ortofon had/has one of the best test recording made directly by them in D2D version. ) and this both characteristics gives Ortofon a pedigree level that no other cartridge designers can't ( for now. ) even yet. Here you can read some information of that A90 that between other things comes with the Ortofon exclusive Replicant 100 stylus shape:


https://www.ortofon.com/mc-a90-p-634-n-4873  


In other side your Pass/Magico combination brings to you power of healthy 120 watts of pure Class A, so normally you will listen it almost all the time in that regarded amp class design.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
@fsmithjack : I linked/posted to you this one with only 100 hours on it coming from a " stellar " owner/seller:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-ortofon-mc-a90-2018-01-08-analog   

Certainly you don't read it.

R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @analogluvr : These are some specs of a very well regarded OTL manufacturer for whom I have a great respect:

.......................................................................................................

Output power30 watts per channel into 8 Ω load
 Bandwidth2Hz-75KHz within ½ dB
Hum and noiseLess than -75db below 1 watt, -95db below full power (30 watts)
DistortionTotal Harmonic Distortion ( THD ) typically 1% at full power
Feedback 2 dB

....................................................................................

maybe the numbers on your OTL could be better I don't know because you did not name it.

Well, take a look to that restricted/limited bandwidth, noise levels, THD and feedback.
All this numbers only speaks of a technology really limited against today SS amps where as in Spectral the the frequency range goes over 1 Mhz ( if you ask or tell that we don't need that so wide bandwidth then you just can't understand why and my recomendation is that you ask directly to Dr. Johnson Spectral owner. ) but you posted about distortion levels and you can read here that 1% when a SS goes around  0.01 or lower as 0.001 and the like, there you read 2b on feedback and higher noise levels that any SS decent amp.

But if we go to phonolinepreamp all things goes really really worst so worst that it's futile to talk about.

R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
@fsmithjack : """ Are you guys sure I am not way over my head with this cart? """

absolutely yes but not because its design but because for a little more money you could have ( not now that you bougth it. ) a way better cartridge as the A90 . With the Ortofon you can stay very near to the digital alternative and nearer on what’s in the recording and with your S1 decision you are far away from there.

I don't know whom gave you the SUT advise before you bougth it but was not a good advise in anyway.

R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : Yes to late for the @folkfreak advise that I concur/agree with him except that LP can't outperform today digital alternative everything the same.

Now, you said:

""" and wish I had a little more gain.... """

YOU DON’T NEED MORE GAIN FOR ANY CARTRIDGE INCLUDING THE S1.

Your up-dated 326S has more than enough but additional to this fact your speakers works at around 4 ohms and in some frequency range goes to 3.0-3.5 ohms and your Magico has a sensitivity of around 90db.

What means all those?: that the Magico puts out 90db SPL with just ONE WATT AT ONE METER and your Pass amplifier puts SEVEN HUNDRED WATTS AT FULL POWER in that 4ohms speaker impedance.

@fsmithjack , 90db on SPL is a real high volume to listen an audio system and normally if we want higher SPL maybe 93-95dbs ( at listening seat. ) could be way higher and not so good for continuous time because we need to mantain a healthy ears.

I know that all the gentlemans in this thread are like me trying to help but in all these regards I disagree with almost all of them. problem is that almost all of them knows nothing about your up-dated 326S as I’m.

As I told you twice I don’t care what you do, as a fact no one cares but you that’s who will live in the future with that system.

Btw, do you already ask VPI for its new gimball tonearm and if you can mount with out trouble in your TT?


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
@fsmithjack : Another great opportunity, stop to lost your time, money and making roockie mistakes:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-ortofon-mc-a90-2018-01-08-analog



R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
@, it does not matters if OTL design ( problem is not only the transformers and only one additional to everything. ) and when I talk about tubes I'm speaking too of phonolinepreamp that at the end is more near the thread subject than amps. Btw, you did not read adequated what I posted bu matters due that you use tubes and horns that are two forbidden items in music/sound reproduction. Of course your phonolinepreamp is atube ones: which is its output impedance?

Digital?, well is so superior to LP but it's useless to discuss with a well AHEE educated pupil. Shame of the corrupted AHEE.

R.


Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @folkfreak : """ which is short of the 2.6V rated for maxiumum output for your X350.5. """

the OP speakers are rated as 4ohms and 90db sensitivty. That apm at that impedance puts 700 watts full power. Do you know when the OP will need the full rated power of the Pass with the S1 cartridge?: never.

@fsmithjack linearity is only one characteristic in an active part device but here we are talking of an amplifier or preamplifier not one single/specific part of the amplifier that’s the sum of its parts and excecution quality of the overall design that includes the parts selection.

An amplifier needs to have a really wide and flat frequency, with very low noise and overall distortion levels ( different kind of distortions. ), that can handle with no trouble the complex impedance/phase angle of the speaker curve, steady and both channels measuring and performing identically, enough headroom, trusty always over time, that the input signal does not has to pass for hundred of meters through amp transformers like usually happens with tubes, etc, etc, etc,

@analogluvr , got it?

R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @analogluvr : SETs at 1w?, please stop to promote that BS. Yes, I don't know what I'm talking about but at least I understand the heavy degradation to a cartridge signal that one single or thousands of tubes makes to that signal and this main/critical subject is what you never will learn and you know why you never will learn?

Because you as many  many audio people were extremely well and deep "# educated " by that corrupted AHEE where you are a good example of that corrupted and " succesful "  AHEE strategy.

That's all, it's not me or you was and is the AHEE strategy where all of us belongs, including me. Fortunatelly years ago I cut those extremely resistence chains that mantained me exactly as you and many other gentlemans. I'm totally liberated ( by my self because the AHEE never help you about, obviously this is forbiden for them. ) and really enjoying MUSIC.

That AHEE makes me lost to many years to count it and mantained inside an audio fake/fraud hobby with a heavy make-up in that audio world.
 Now, I can see all those " clowns " ( not people like you because no one of us have the culprit to live in that fake/fraud. ) that makes me that and fell sorry for them.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @folkfreak : You are rigth that always is riscky to buy a cartridge second hand and that always before that you have to know and ask everything you posted. I agree with you.

Problem with the people that can't afford cartridges  over 5K the only and best alternative always be second hand if those people want that top kind of quality performance.

In the other side, 78dbs with those Pass amps are more than enough, no problem here at all.

Anyway, the OP took other alternative.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : AAny re-tipper can rebuild but a cartridge of the caliber as the A90 it’s not a cartridge to " rebuild " by any re-tipper.

First than all, that cartridge has at least another 400 hundreds hours ( maybe more. ) that are a lot of hours.

Now, after 400-500 hundreds hours maybe Ortofon can take it in change of its newest top of the line cartridge and pay for the difference .

Anyway, if you don’t want to change the A90 but stay with then exist no one better than Ortofon to rebuild the cartridge. As a fact they return to you a new A90 with the latest up-dates in the cartridge Ortofon technology.

In the other side only regarded cartridge manufacturers like Ortofon, VDH, Clearaudio, Benz Micro, Lyra, My Sonic Labs, ZYX and the like are the only that has acces to the best and unique ( for them. ) cantilevers and stylus as no single retipper can ( the cartridge build/replacement suppliers never gives this kind of parts to any re-tippers. ). A retipper gives you always second class cartridge build/replacement parts and a re-tipper never knows the manufacturer cartridge up-dates over the time and never knows how the cartrige designer voiced their top cartridges.

Only by ignorance some people use re-tippers with top LOMC cartridges.

You can send to retippers second class cartridges but never send to them a top class cartridge as the A90.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @folkfreak : Please tell your MM designer that reads this review/specs/measurements on this SS vintage Levinson phonolinepreamp and that he asks to those Levinson people how they did it to have no compromises for those 60 active dbs of gain in the phono circuits:

https://www.stereophile.com/solidpreamps/196/index.html

I think that the only thing that your MM designer can do is to read the whole review. He can’t do it till he learns in deep to that high gain with no compromises subject. A hard task for every designer.


Btw, those 14.9 ohms measured for the 32 output impedance is awesome. Please some one comes here and shows us how tubes outperform that. ! ? ! ? ! ?

Btw, those tube lovers know why is so important this single spec in any phonolinepreamp?

In those times J.Scull was STP reviewer and latter on gone to TAS, this was his system during the review:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no32-reference-preamplifier-associated-equipment


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

@ fsmithjack : The Accurate cartridge was the next one to the top of the line Insider in the Clearaudio catalog of cartridges.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @analogluvr : """  take Raul with a huge pinch of salt. Anybody who doesn't like Tubes and prefers digital has a tin ear.  He continually speaks of minimizing distortion when in fact Tubes run in their proper zone often have less distortion than solid-state """

your statement speaks exactly on your knowledge/ignorance levels:

""  in their proper zone often ..... """

yes, between 8khz and 8.1khz. Music/audio has almost no frequency range limitations when tubes are severely limited and full of limitations in this regards including higher noise levels than SS. In what music/sound world do you live? because here and today you " dream " does not exist any more.



"""  you may not even be able to pick it out in a double blind test.  """

you can't if you don't know how to do it, if you are not self trained to do it. 

It's obvious that you can't do it because you are not self trained about. That's all. Please keep learning.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @folkfreak : Good for that change to SS, bad that’s only a MM and you will be sticked with that " terrible " SUT.

""" The designer of this stage believes that any high gain (i.e. much above 40dB) phono stage represents unacceptable compromises.. ""

With my respect to that designer and I don’t care whom is he that statement is nothing less than a stupid one for say the least and only means that that designer has very limited knowledge on how to build/design a 60db with out " compromises ".

My dear @folkfreak this is not rocket science, yes you need some engennering knowledge level and skills and experience about. If that designer can’t design a Phonolinepream for LOMC cartridges then stay away from him.

Yes, as we have more active gain noise levels can goes up and even some kind of distortions but you can put it at minimum where no one can detect it , certainly not me because as you say I’m " deaf ".

Look what your designer is telling you:

"" that a high gain well designed active circuit puts higher " compromises " than a MM circuit plus all what I told you about the SUT ""

that is just incredible and more incredible is that left him to convince you in the same way that you were convinced to add and " destroy " those great Q3 you own adding the Enigma ones that you with those speakers just don’t need it ! ! ? ? ! !

Btw, I don’t need to go to your place to know all the mistakes exist in your system and I don’t need to go to Portland to know all the " land " that exist in that system to improve severely its quality level performance.
I just don’t need it but appreciated your invitation and thank’s for that.

In audio the name of the game ( and I posted this several times here an elsewhere. ) is not money ( that always helps a lot. ) is: KNOWLEDGE LEVELS, OWN SKILLS and IGNORANCE LEVELS.

aS THE op YOU CAN FOLLOW MAKING " MISTAKES " THIS IS PART OF THE EACH DAY LEARNING LESSONS AND YOU HAVDE THE MONEY TO DO IT BUT WHEN YOU TAKE/TOOK DECISIONS BECAUE A DESIGNER OR SELLER gave advises these advises are the ones that you have to take it with a little " salt " because at the end all of them ( including distributors and reviewers. ) their main target is to take your money that’s it’s really easy because you are " educated " by the corrupted AHEE and always are willing to do it.

As all of us you have to follow learning, of course that exist people that are just stupid and never learns. No, I’m not refereing to you, first than all I respect to you as a human been and as a music lover.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


Btw, the gentleman that coincide with my past advise to you about subwoofers is not a " deaf " as me, he knows very well not only your Q3 but listened too the 5 and 7. Is an expert not an amateur as me.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : Do it you a favor and put on sale your SUT and buy ASAP the A90 I linked. Both cartridges AQ and the S1 are BS against that Ortofon.

R.
Ag insider logo xs@2x
rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @folkfreak : Obviously that you are enterely satisfied with your home audio system and this is most important issue for each one of us.

I'm not against tubes just " per sé ", no things are that I learned by my self that tubes can't honor what's in the recording grooves in better way than SS. This technology has and is extremely limited for today standards and with your Q3 just can't do a decent work.

Now, no SUT can compete with good active SS design, even those SUTs with high price tags over 7K can't do it. Physics laws can't be changed, not you, me or any SUT designer.
But forgeret what is inside the SUT box and think that the delicated and I can say extremely delicated  and very low output cartridge signal instead to go directly to the circuit boards ( as in the 326S. ) that's the shorter " road " for that delicated recorded information that is what that signal needs: shorter road to suffer the less degradation trying to preserve the original recorded information pick-up by the cartridge.
Instead of that in your system the signal not only has to pass through " hundred " of meter in both SUT transformers and from there must pass for other degradation link that are the SUT output connectors but inside this output connectors exist a piece of solder for the inside cable that goes to those connectors and YES this piece of solder and the additional output connectors where that signal must pass following degrading the signal ( not only at both frequency extremes but over all the frequency range . ! ! ) then from these output connectors the signal goes inside the IC cable male connectors with that cable solder where the signal degradation continues the heavy endless degradation but thing does not stop here because the signal has to travel over that IC cable followed but the output IC cable and on and on....

Btw, your unipivots are a little diferent from the VPI.

Your supertweeters only destroy the sound of your system and I know it by experience because I use it many years till an speaker expert designer explain me the problem but your q3 goes to 50khz and has no need for those Enigmas that its frequency range stops at 40khz ! ! and now you have two sources in very bad position working in part of the same frequency range: tweeters and sperT   ? ? ? 

In the past I recomend to you to integrate your system two self powered subwoofers due that the Q3 crooosover the midrange at over 300 hz.

As you can read many problems in your system and that's why you can't detect all the " errors " down there.

Btw,  by coincidence I read this in relation to the Q3 ( I read it 5 minutes ago ) that coincide with my past advise on subs:

"""  Seems to not like big swings in the low registers ..For that one may need to upgrade to the bigger brothers the Q5 or Q7. I am very partial to subwoofers as many know by now and would love to use this speaker with active crossover (Say the Lyngddorf) and crossed very high with a smooth slope say 6 dB/oct at 100~150 Hz... Just a thought..  """


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @folkfreak : I respect your opinion and good for you that own tubes, SUT and unipivot tonearm.

Now, that you can’t detect the deep damage that all 3 makes to the cartridge signal do not means in anyway that I’m wrong.
Maybe you can’t detect it because you never gave or give for a decent period of time the opportunity to listen at your place with the records you truly know an all SS electronics with a integrated active phonolinepreamp as my Essential or the OP 326S along top SS amps and compare it , after listen the SS alternative for at least 3 months in a row, latter against your tube/SUT and the same with a non unipivot tonearm against a gimball good tonearm design.

If you never did it that test then the " salt " you are talking with @fsmithjack in reality has a true name.: LEARN and this is what you need for. That’s all.

Not only you but no one even the item designers can’t argue in favor of tube/SUT/unipivots against SS/gimball or active phono stages and I mean no one can with true facts on hand that tell us for sure that any of your 3 alternatives puts you nearer to the recording than what is my advise and you can invite any of them to come here and we can discuss that subject as deep they want it taking in count that the main premise in that discussion will be to stay truer to the recording. You can be sure that I can take that kind of hard challenge.


The matters is not if what you own likes you or can’t detect the damage or whatever reason you have. The subject is that with your 3 prefered system items you JUST CAN’T BE TRUER TO THE RECORDING as with my advise here an all over the internet where I posted the same. It doeas not matters what you or me can think about, the real and true facts are there with out doubt and almost out of discussion. It does not matters the price of your system or other $$$$ systems that has those 3 items.

As you know because I posted several times: I used for years tubes, SUTs and unipivot, even today I own 1-2 unipivots and 3-4 SUTs.

Btw, @fsmithjack VPI designed recently a gimball tonearm and maybe if you talk with them you can use it in your TT. I don’t know how good is that new VPI tonearm design and if it’s a well damped tonearm but you can ask for it. Almost anything is better than the tonearm you own.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : The real problem in your VPI is that " terrible " unipivot tonearm that the only " mission " is to destroy the cartridge job, any cartridge. What you need is a way better tonearm in that or in other TT.

Cartridge and tonearm are not two separate items, both are and works as a unit. You need a lot better tonearm.

In the other side and additional of what I told you about not to use that SUT you have to remember that all SUTs are frequency limited at both extremes and its generated ( internally/externally. ) noise levels are outperformed easily for your Refrence 32.

Do you think that Levinson or J.Curl or N.Pass was an stupid designers as some persons that knows nothing because its ignorance about SUTs?. If the best choice were SUTs then all the phono boards will be passive and not active like yours that are THE BEST AND ONLY WAY TO ACHIEVE HIGH QUALITY PERFORMANCE LEVELS IN ANY LOMC CARTRIDGE. SUTs can’t do it and I repeat that only people whit very high ignorance levels or stupidity can recomend it and I know why they recomend it and is because they never owned the Levinson you have or can’t achieve ( because money or something else. ) a good active phono stage design.

This subject only confirm what I posted from several times in this Agon forum and other internet forums: that the corrupted AHEE makes a good " job " to sold many lies like SUT or tubes and still does today.

Good that you learned and left the tubes for SS. Today is the only alternative that puts to all of us nearer to the recording that’s my main target.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.

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rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @dgarretson : The @fsmithjack 326S hast 78db of total gain. You have to remember that the 326S has  18db ( you can choose other gain in this preamp. ) and the Reference 32 phono circuit boards ( that was the 326S ud-date. ) has another 60db ( you can choose here too the gain you need it. ).

This up-dated 326S still today is very hard to beat it. The OP is a lucky guy to own it.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : You really was in a hurry but now I understand that you have no worries but I can give you an example of what you losted with almost the same money because that " hurry ":

720.00 for the SUT plus 600 for the S1 = 1,320.00 ( btw, if the seller of the up-dated 326S was the same of the SUT then he was ignorant, stupid or only want to take your money. I hope the seller were diferent and with out knew you own the 326S. ).

Well this Ortofon A90 ( was designed to celebrate the Ortofon 90 anniversary. ) even with 400 hundred hours on ( still with at least other 400 hundred hours on it. ) is way way over better quality performer ( if quality level is important to you. ) vs not only the S! but aginst all the other cartridges posted here. The A90 is today still one of the best cartridge ever:

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/cartridges-ortofon-mc-a90-phono-cartridge-2017-12-06-analog


"""   get a better phono cable and base for under my table . """, yes this will be a very good move.


@rantzmar , the OP Levinson has 78dbs that’s more than enough.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : """  I enjoy buying, listening to it, selling it, reading about it, writing about it, learning about it and sharing what I learn... """


that's all about, good but who is " worried/sorry / for that is that as roberjerman you are willing to kil/try the SUT. No problem but do it after 100 hours or more on that Denon not before it.

Why? because you need to know if that up-dated 326s is working in good shape where the phono boards are the main " subject " in that preamp.

If at the end you like more the additional SUT distortions than the direct 326s then that's up to you that's the one that must live with that music/sound levels.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @roberjerman: Thank’s for your kindy words but you have no idea of what you are talking about.

If you know what you are taling about please explain to all of us ( mainly to the OP. ) the why’s of the statement you posted in reference to me:

" blanket condemnation of SUT’s is plainly WRONG! "

I’m sure you can’t do it but I can explain my " blanket ..... to SUT ":

firt re-read what was my advise to the OP about the SUT’s and why.

Now, I know very well the Mark Levinson design approach of its units in those times not only because I own and owned Levinson electronics and heard in my system not only the 326s but the Reference 32 and I know very well because I own ( thank’s to some luck in the past. ) the full circuit diagramas of my today amps ( modified by me. ) and of other Levenson amp.

The Levinson engennering design and overall detail on the execution of that design is just second to none, even for today standards !!. Got me?

Do you now that the Reference 32 was the first Preamp in the long story of Levinson that was name it Reference? do you know what means with Levinson the word Reference in one of its units?

Certainly you have not idea. In my experience over the years when Levinson use the Reference title is because the unit design is a true and real Reference, not as other manufacturers that use that title as marketing tool.

The Levinson Reference is that: a Reference against any other similar electronics designs, even today. Levinson units are true bullet proof units and its engeneering levels are ( again ) second to none. )

My 20.6 monoblocks are Reference and only for you can ( or maybe not. ) have an idea of the Levinso quality in its design my amps works with out problem even at 0.1 ohm if a speaker need it ! ! working all the way down in true pure class A with non-feedback.

Please take a look to this J.Atkinson measurements in the 326s and observe that’s output impedance is just the fenomenal: 29 ohms ! ! ! and read the last sentences by that true expert that’s J.Atkinson:

https://www.stereophile.com/content/mark-levinson-no326s-line-preamplifier-measurements


additional to that the OP unit is up-dated with the Reference 32 phono circuit boards ! ! ! and you want to " kill " this marvelous electronics passing the valious cartridge signal through a SUT? ?

Do you know why exist SUT’s in the past and today? because I know for sure but you have to learn by your self.

Btw, I own and owned no less than 20 Ortofon LOMC/MI cartridges and I admire always Ortofon and I know why they have SUT’s. Problem is that you don’t know and can’t even imagine it.

Btw, I own at least 4 SUT’s and owned in the past several of them but this is not the main issue here.


Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.


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rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : My advise is try to stop buying analog because bargain price. As you said you are a roockie with this analog alternative. Stop to follow makking more mistakes because you said you don't have the kind of money you could need sooner or latter. Sooner because your roockie mistakes.

You have a great digital system and if you want to approach ( you can't even digital with the analog alternative but can be near it. ) it you need a way better advises that the one from that gentleman on Up Scale audio that at the end what he really matters is to take your money one way or the other ( and nothing wrong with that, at the end that's his job. ) from where you bougth your TT/tonearm and was him who told you about the Prima Luna tube unit: go figure ! the kind of advise he gave you when tubes are not for analog or digital in our times.

That Kiseki I don't want it if one gentleman wants to gives me as a gift.

Unfortunatelly you already has the wrong tonearm for any cartridge, VPI unipivot design. Nothing is worst than unipivot design.

 You can do what ever you want because is your money and I don't care how you spend it but I posted here and everywhere Agon always trying to help. If this trying to help " hit " the other gentlemans ignorance level then sorry for that. We need to learn.I told you to put on sale that SUT because it's a terribel mistake using it with your up-dated Levinson unit. With the money you can get for the SUT and the money you have you can buy a way better cartridge on what you are trying to buy.The cartridge is the more important and critic item in the analog chain because it's the cartridge the responsable to pick up or not the original recorded signal on those precious LP grooves.Take a little of time to make a good decision.Please read what will be my answer to @roberjerman.Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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rauliruegas
12,781 posts
 
Dear @fsmithjack : First than all I want to tell you that the best SUT is not SUT at all.

Your up-dated 326S has enough gain for the very low output in the Denon S1: NO problem at all and wroks fine at 200 ohms. I owned not only this Denon but around 200+cartridges and the Accurate by Clearaudio and this cartridge is really good too as is the Blackheart by VDH.
So not easy to pull the triger for any of them. Forgeret about that Dynavector you name it. 
I prefer the Accurate or the VDH over the S1. Only ask to the seller the operation condition on both cartridges.

Put on sale that SUT you bougth because you don't need it and only degrades the cartridge signal due that that cartridge signal must comes at the input of the great 326s through additional IC cables and obviously additional input and output connectors and the solder used inside those cables. All these and other things destroy the critical/sensitive and delicated cartridge signal and you can't recovery that original signal.

You already own the best option: a DIRECT connection between the cartridge/tonearm, nothing can beats this and with an additional advantage: your 326s does not use internally a SUT to achieve the gain as with tube phono stages.

Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.




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