@djones51 What keeps the squirrels and field mice from making nests in the speaker? Or raccoons from eating them? I don't know about having speakers open to the elements and building an anechoic chamber might be more than the 200K indoor speaker. The drivers would not attract mice. Why would they choose a place like that when they could choose any other place? The noise would drive away most pests. The worst that could happen is driver damage but that could happen even indoors if say insects were to get into your cabinets through the port and then chewed their way into the voice coil. Its a small price to pay for perfect sound. You have no evidence that it would cost 200k. I think buying a pile of fibreglass and stacking it inside the room would be more effective than a single layer of thin polyester that is normally used. Fibreglass is pretty cheap. Its used for insulation. Since you are more concerned about the minor drawbacks and show no interest in the sonic benefits, you obviously do not require perfect sound. This project is for serious audiophiles and not people like you. @qjm101 Kenjit, in one of your previous lessons you stated something to the effect that every speaker must be tuned to the ears of the owner/ listener. Does that not imply that there is no one "perfect sound"?
You are correct that in my previous lesson I stated that speakers must be CUSTOM tuned by hand to the persons ears. You are wrong that there is no perfect sound. The major reason for imperfect sound is the cabinet that adds distortion that is unmeasurable. By removing the cabinet we remove that source of distortion and get closer to perfection. My solution gives you the best of both worlds. You get the benefits of open baffle and closed box but none of the drawbacks. @jaytor
Probably because it doesn't sound very good. Speakers mounted in a wall create a very flat sound stage with no image depth
All major recording studios use soffit mounting.If it was that bad, they would not do it. @simonmoon
Thick concrete would create a similar problem with imaging and soundstage. To make the cabinet have a large enough internal volume for the woofers, it would become too wide for mids and highs to image.
Wide is best for imaging. look at the sonus faber stradivari for example. @larryi
I've heard at least a dozen different open baffle speakers. They all sound different. I did not know there were so many variants of "perfect." Is one more perfect than another?
Open baffles are wrong. @tomic601
Can we at least get pistonic drivers in this vented into the neighborhood design. ???
It's a myth. Theres no need for pistonic motion. Thats why you use two or three drivers to cover the whole range of frequencies. Custom tuning is far more important than that. @facten
Not only is this ludicrous for homeowners, but what will all of the apartment dwellers do?
The project is not a possibility for all audiophiles such as audiophiles who are poor, who live in small homes or who have no space, but if you are able to spend the kind of money on a Magico and want the best then this is it. Also if people are still concerned about imaging, then there would be optional flexible PVC pipes that could be supplied that would go between the back of the drivers and the wall to enable flexible room placement and a false plastic baffle of any shape and size you like to be fitted. |
@facten That is a very poor attempt to invalidate my ideas.
Thick concrete is better than 2 inch mdf I would have thought. But the ultimate solution is the one Ive stated here. |
Maybe I misunderstood but the back of the speaker driver is outdoors? Rain, snow, ice, bird crap? could either do an anechoic chamber OR outdoors with protection from wind, rain etc . Not exactly rocket science to solve that problem |
Actually it would be exactly the kind of place squirrels would look for. Even if this idea worked and created the best sounding speakers ever created I doubt you could convince HOA's and zoning boards to approve. I can imagine the farts older than me in mine yelling THOSE THINGS IN THE SIDE OF YOUR HOUSE ARE AN EYESORE! well as i said already this project is not for people like you who find excuses and refuse to accept the benefits that can be gained. Squirrels look for food or shelter. A squirrel would not even fit inside the back of a 6 or 7 inch driver. Use a temporary back cover when the speakers arent in use and theres no chance you will get squirrels or birds while the speakers were in use. You could also have a door on the back to prevent pests coming in. The HOAs would have nothing to do with this. It would basically be an empty outdoor garage. A tiny 6 inch hole in a wall would not cause anybody an eyesore |
Gee, an infinite baffle loudspeaker. How revolutionary. You've done it, you genius you. Well how come nobody else is doing it then if you think its so obvious? It takes a genius to rediscover a solution to a problem that actually works. A box speaker is a poor approximation of the infinite baffle.No matter how strong you make a box, even if it was made of solid diamond, it would still be far inferior to a TRUE infinite baffle. |
So how do you solve the problem of rain, snow, ice and bird crap without creating this back pressure? You can’t enclose it? i just told you. An anechoic chamber would do. It depends on the outdoor climate. Not all places have severe wind and rain 24/7 do they? You could use a semi enclosure with ceiling and side walls but no back wall or just a thin layer of fibreglass over a fence. |
Wonder what other speaker engineers received their degrees No degrees are required to drill a pair of holes in a wall. I'm giving you a method that gives you perfect sound with no effort or degrees needed. There is no such thing as a degree in speaker engineering far as I know |
Wall mounted speakers are not soffit mounted. why not? |
@dill
Plenty of professional studios use soffits which disproves the point made by some that mounting speakers in walls is bad for imaging.
You have found a picture of a studio that uses midfield monitors. So what? Why dont you google soffit mounted monitors to see that professional studios do in fact use speakers mounted in the walls?
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Physics, mechanical or electrical engineering? It's a fallacy. Just because a person who works at a fast food restaurant happens to have a degree in physics doesn't mean the job requires it does it? A typical speaker is an mdf box + drivers + crossover. Having a degree doesn't change that. You will still end up with mdf box + drivers + crossover. |
@dill Because soffits are a horizontal surface No they are not. Go and find a picture of a studio with soffit monitors to learn what they are and then you will understand that you are wrong. Drivers in a wall are the same as what the recording studios do. You would get no baffle step loss either way. All the best |
just get custom TS parameter drivers from scan speak. |
@bryhifi Are you able to substantiate the claim that you get poor imaging from in wall speakers? As stated already by @reubent most recording studios are using traditional box speakers recessed into the wall or upper soffit. BUT, that is not what we are listening to anyway. Its what professional musicians and studio engineers listen to. I suppose they can just put up with the poor imaging can they? |
Kenjit, you do realize that most of those "in wall" speakers you see in studios are just box speakers, mounted in openings in the wall. You realize that, right? When you google "soffit mounted monitors" as you suggested, you will see that most of those "boxed speakers, mounted in opening in the wall", are also front ported. Your example of "soffit mounted monitors" in studio use does not validate your thesis. It disproves it. The objection raised to my drivers in wall idea was poor imaging. I mentioned studio soffit mounts to invalidate this drivel. In response to which somebody posted up a picture of a studio using freestanding midfield monitors as if to say it was proof that studios do not use soffit mounted monitors. And now youve come along to suggest that a box speaker in an opening in the wall does NOT suffer from poor imaging whereas my drivers in wall DOES. Why are you unable to see the contradiction? Whats the explanation for this supposedly poor imaging and what prevents poor imaging from a studio soffit monitor? |
It would be better to just do away with speakers and amplifiers completely and just hire the musicians to perform in your room when you want to listen to music. This would eliminate your annoyance with "speakers". So if i wanted to listen to a full size symphony orchestra i would need to somehow fit all those people and their instruments into my small room? Do you know any audiophile that has a spare listening room big enough to contain an orchestra and hundreds of concertgoers? Studio recordings use things like EQ, compression, effects etc. There is no way to recreate that in your room just using musicians. Get real. |
@reubent Heres what you said Your example of "soffit mounted monitors" in studio use does not validate your thesis. It disproves it. The problem is I never mentioned soffit mounted monitors to prove my thesis about my theory of in wall drivers. I mentioned it to refute the claim that mounting drivers flush in a wall suffers poor imaging. And in that case my argument is valid. You just misunderstood the argument being made. If you have nothing to say about that i suggest you keep quiet. I merely pointed out that you used a very poor example, that did not have much in common with your idea, to validate your idea
Drivers in a wall have nothing in common with a box speaker mounted flush in an opening in a wall? In terms of baffle step response, its identical so youre wrong there. |
Wait? What the heck? They were mastered on world class box speakers in-room and guess what....set up like our home systems? The reason box speakers are ubiquitous is because they are easy to ship and set up. It doesnt mean they cant be surpassed. And no they are not set up like home systems at all, the studio systems are often custom built for the best acoustics. Whereas home hifis are just placed wherever theres space. Big difference. Mastering engineers would in fact be the first to adopt my in wall infinite baffle technology. They have the budget and the requirements for the best possible sound. |
@bryhifi I guess those old RadioShack 7” $15 woofers of yore are just as good as or close enough to a 7” SEAS Excel woofer?
Rear of drivers open to externals of a house? Great - in another post you said reflected rear waves are a major flaw. So now you want us to listen to birds chirping, dogs barking, road noise, wind noise, thunder, air traffic and every other source of noise found in an average environment. A wafer thin driver cone will pass that sound pressure like a.......speaker. Oh wait, build an anechoic chamber off the side of the house is your answer to that. Right - let’s see your blue-print plan for that and not look ridiculous. Better rebuild that interior wall as well otherwise it’ll vibrate and resonate like fiend.
And, if left open to the exterior, how do you handle the atmospheric pressure differential from inside to outside of the house? Yes a radioshack vs excel is not that different. These drivers are mostly just paper and metal. As stated earlier, driver differences are not the key to perfect sound. My technology IS the secret that would destroy the high end speaker industry. Hence its unlikely we will ever see it come to fruition. Does every audiophile live in an area where there is constant thunder wind rain and dogs barking 24/7? Your first priority would then be to move house to escape that noise pollution than the problems it would cause in building my in wall infinite baffle no baffle step loss technology. The average noise level in a typical outdoor environment is in fact many orders of magnitude quieter than the noise you find INSIDE a typical box speaker. Think about that for a minute. there is no atmospheric pressure differential. |
If you believe in it one would expect that you have employed it yourself and would be excited to show it to everyone. If you haven't and aren't going to, well then you really can't expect anyone else to even consider it Many great theoretical physicists make speculative theories about all sorts of things and often it is impossible to test or put into practice. That does not make their efforts worthless or wrong. So wrong again. |
@bryhifi That is ludicrous, what you just suggested is hundreds of thousand dollars to start building an IB speaker. You’re as nutty as a jar of peanut butter. You've misunderstood me. All I said was if you live in an area where theres 24/7 noise from barking dogs and wind and rain, the least of your concerns would be the ability to implement my technology. The first concern would be to simply escape the noise. Who would want to live in an area with all that noise? A dividing wall could be nothing more than a spare room next door that is used as the anechoic chamber. That would cost nothing. Drilling a few small holes would generate a bit of dust but easy to clear up. Its not as impossible as you have decided. |
when will we read a review? reviews are just opinions. If you need to read somebody elses opinion to validate your own then this is the wrong hobby. |
What's difficult about your understanding that? There is no difficulty in understanding. A picture showing that i had drilled holes in my walls would tell you nothing about how well the technology works. Its no different than you posting up a picture of your wooden coffin speakers in your living room with bare floors. That is not going to tell us much other than the fact that you will hear all the problems that all box speakers suffer, and that you value aesthetics more than good acoustics. Perhaps you should take up interior design as a hobby instead of hifi? |
@facten
There are currently no plans to patent or to offer this technology for sale to the public. This discussion is mainly for educational purposes.
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@facten What it proves is that you have done what you want others to do. Do you have any better arguments to show that my ideas are wrong or is your only argument that I am unable to provide a picture showing that ive done it? Would a picture tell you how well the technology works? No. So a picture proves nothing. Is that how you assess your speakers when deciding what to buy, by looking at pictures showing how nice they look in a room? Get real. |
The pictures aren't for proof of anything other than that you have in fact put your technology in place in your home; nothing more nothing less. That said your resistance to doing so answers the question - you haven't Neither have you. Do you have any reasons not to? Youve got a nice big wall behind your existing coffin boxes. Whats behind the wall? A room or outdoors? Either would work. Aside from squirells, rain and wind, do you have any reasons not to install my infinity baffle in wall driver technology, or are you just going to continue listening to your coffins with all their inherent problems that nothing can fix? Its your loss facten. |
@facten
we will not see my technology come to fruition for the reasons stated already. But if it did, then i am saying it would outdo everything and of course people like studio engineers and musicians with the necessary budget would be some of the first people to show an interest.
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@reubent That is incorrect. Studios, in general, are recessing a box speaker into a hole in the wall. Really? I didnt know that. Thanks for pointing it out. But I have a question for you reubent. What would the baffle step response be for a soffit mounted studio monitor and what would it be for my in wall infinite baffle technology? Are you claiming there is a difference in terms of polar response between the two approaches? |
So no pictures of it The beauty of my invention lies in its simplicity. Its so simple that you dont need pictures to understand it. What is it you dont understand that would require pictures to help? |
@bryhifi
you cant have it both ways bryhifi. Either flush mounting speakers have poor imaging or they dont. Which is it? If you cant decide then i suggest you stop commenting to avoid muddying the waters. |
Here is a list of theoretical physicists. Now I don’t see you mentioned there, however, there is also a list of fictional theoretical physicists that might be incomplete (scroll down for the list). Maybe you will show up there one day. Seems like a worthy goal for you. How many speaker designers are mentioned in your list? you're obviously looking at the wrong list. However, the importance of an invention should not be judged based on whether the inventor appears on some list that some anonymous person has created. I have refuted the fallacies and objections about poor imaging and wind, rain and squirrels etc. In a couple hundred years when we're all dead, the future generation of audiophiles will be reading these posts and will revere me for my insights about these horrible box speakers and will learn how difficult it was to overcome the stubborness within the industry before the ultimate cessation of box speaker production. |
@djones51
Pests will not be attracted while music is playing. The rear of the drivers would be fully sealed most of the time which would provide further protection.
However, since you are so douftful i would not recommend the infinite baffle in wall technology to people like you who refuse to see the advantages and focus only on the minor drawbacks. I can see from your profile picture that you have ported speakers. I hope you seal them up after every use, in case a fly or spider goes in there and causes serious damage.
You would be offered the anechoic chamber option. If that is also unsatisfactory, we would simply refuse to offer our services to you and you would have no choice but to use inferior coffin speakers instead with all their inherent problems.
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Still haven't figured out how to keep the squirrels from putting their nuts in your speaker. just use a perforated metal screen around the driver. |
zero proof produced that you’ve actually done any of this. @bryhifiNeither have you. So how do you know its a bad idea? You cant even give me one good reason its a bad idea. The best excuses anybody on here has given is squirrels and noise! And you earlier tried to defend the idea that it would cause poor imaging before i refuted that by informing you that the best recording studios use the exact same flush mounted approach. Face it bryhifi, you have run out of excuses. Stop trying to insult me and just build yourself a pair of my superb infinity baffle in wall speakers and start enjoying your music. youre going to disgrace yourself if you carry on with the insults. |
Kenjit - then please explain how to describe the Rayleigh-Sommerfeld integral for the plane axisymmetric piston, in a situation where the drivers are not mounted on the same wall. I havent heard of that you'll have to ask duke. @audiokinesis |
@facten
Youve got a nice big wall behind your existing coffin boxes. Whats behind the wall? A room or outdoors? Either would work. Aside from squirells, rain and wind, do you have any reasons not to install my infinity baffle in wall driver technology, or are you just going to continue listening to your coffins with all their inherent problems that nothing can fix? Its your loss facten.
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Look, you are saying these are "it" as far as speaker design, right? yes. Endgame speaker industry destroying speakers. Which by the way is why it will never come to fruition. But lets face it, box speakers are WRONG. How else do you explain why people are never happy with their boxes? Custom tuning is one reason. But the other reason is the box. My technology offers the best of box and open baffle speakers with none of their disadvantages. We want hard proof. Open baffle exponents extol the benefits of drivers without boxes. There are many of you here who use them. This is indication of their merits. As stated before my technology provides the best of both worlds with the clarity of the open baffle since it is an infinite baffle and not just a tiny box. Yet there is no loss of bass as with an open baffle. Hard proof is what we all want. However, current measurements do not reveal the true extent of what we hear and therefore it all comes down to trusting that our speaker engineers have good enough hearing and good enough ideas to invent something that sounds great. The fact that my design is NOT just another box speaker is enough evidence that you will not just be hearing the same problems that ALL box speakers suffer from. More box speakers are not the answer to better sound. Clearly a new approach is needed. In that sense you should be grateful that i have provided the possibility of an alternative way to experience better sound. The fact that nobody has been able to raise any real technical objections lends further credence to my ideas. The only objection raised so far in terms of the sound quality is poor stereo imaging. This has already been answered and we will not repeat the answer again. |
@poko The onus is on you to prove your theory, that you are selling us on. There is no onus on anybody. People can post as much or as little as they like. If you are so certain i am wrong why cant you disprove my ideas? What aspect of my theory do you doubt that requires a proof? The problem seems to be that you already have an unfavorable opinion about my theory for no good reason and your inability to disprove me has upset you. There is also no such thing as proof since there is never any proof in the speaker industry and there never has been. My technology is a development of the box and open baffle technology using existing drivers. The exact implementation may require refinements but the general idea is plausible. It is to eliminate cabinet induced resonances. An infinite baffle is just an infinite box so that resonances will not occur and distort the signal. Infinite baffles are like open baffles without the lobing and loss of bass. |
I predict that in a few hundred years there will be no more box speakers. No more midwoofers no more tweeters. Some genius will have created a perfect transducer...However before that happens, the engineers will look back at the archives and discover that there once lived a genius called Kenjit. A man with such deep insights that nobody would believe him. All he wanted was to experience perfect sound and to share that experience with others. A champion speaker engineer of the highest calibre. A genius who introduced among other things, the importance of CUSTOM TUNING. Infinity baffle technology. And showed that all the other technologies were WRONG. On his tombstone will be written:
Kenjit~Master speaker tuner~Master speaker engineer~Champion of PERFECT sound. Eschewer of TS parameters and non believer of so called frequency response measurements. They will feel pity for him, for all the ridicule and insults he endured.
Above all, they will remember him as nothing but a misunderstood genius.
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no you cannot. i use a variety of custom tuned designs. Im still in the process so theres nothing to see. And you wouldnt learn much just by seeing a picture. |
