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Dear @dover : "
I have found every shibata tipped cartridge I have heard to be brittle... ""
If I remember the original Shibata was used mainly for the CD-4 recordings and several vintage cartridges ( mainly MM. ) used to as the AT 20 Sla/SS that, between other shibata cartridges designs, I owned but at least with those AT I don't remember or can't remember that " characteristic " you mentioned.
Btw, several design cartridges including today ones that in theory comes with Shibata in reality are " modified Shibata or Shibata like " but not the original Shibata shape.
R.
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Dear @halcro : Well, in your list of cartridges that are not any more with you all them have something in common: all came from different DESIGNERS that along other contemporary top LOMC ones all choosed boron build material for their cartridge designs and as edgewear pointed out to you the quality performance levels of many of those designs are really great.
In the other side the market today very high price of LOMC cartridges is not way different that in the past where the top models had a very high market price for the market standards in those old times when existed a way way higher demand for cartridges against the very low number of today audiophiles that buy today LOMC cartridges.
As @dover and several other gentlemans I don't buy a cartridge because its cantilever builed material and in specific if it's boron or beryllium with the vintage ones.
I think that what you did not like it of your list cartridge performance is its overall quality levels that just is different from your audio/music priorities but not because boron.
In the side of beryllium vs boron where you prefer beryllium it's the same but not because in specific of beryllium that's inferior to boron as cantilever material: beryllium Moh hardeness a low 5.5 vs 9.3 in boron and Young Modulus is almost the third of the boron. Two critical parameters for the cartridge cantilevers needs.
Btw, it's really weird that you can't be aware if you are listenin to a MC cartridge or at MM/MI one. Maybe could be because your room/system can't " tell you "?
Please do not diminish my next advise: could be that when you decide to make a really easy tests with the Wima/Kemet caps in your speakers you will listen those differences that exist between MC and MM/MI cartridges. Those Duelund are high colored caps.
R.
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Dear friends and halcro : For those that could ve interested to test and have some fun with those Wima/Kemet caps on speaker crossovers or electronics this is the thread that I opened looking for experienced gentlemans help and was through the thread time where I ( again ) going against all the audiophile " rules " and advises of those experienced gentlemans discovered for what for me was a great " surprise " ( for say the least. ) and the best lesson in my audio life. Can this cap " excercise " works for you? I don't know for sure but I don't " see " why not. The ones of you that decide to try the cap test please read carefully the thread title ( we are not looking for some kind of " color or something similar of what we own but a " dead neutral " caps. ) before have a conclusion about and give those 20-40 hours to have serious listening sessions: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/best-harmless-signatureless-speakers-capacitorsR. |
Dear @best-groove : I seen what you said through the 7000 photo.
I really did not check with care about my fixed vintage cartridges where some of them comes with " plastic " body.
Btw, I owned the 7000 Fe5 and truly good quality performer. Scan-Tech made it those Audioquest models under Audioquest very specific targets.
R. |
Dear @halcro : I think that as me you try that your system could play at its best and that’s why time to time we audiophiles made some kind of " improvements/up-date " that normally ( not always. ) are for the better.
I don’t know your speakers driver signature in your custom speakers you own but what I know very well is with which quality levels performs almost all ( by first hand experiences. ) fancy/expensive capacitors ( including Duelund that I owned. ) against the deep humble caps that an audiophile never turn around its eyes for a sigth and this including me.
Well, not many time ago I , just for fun, turn around my eyes to Wima caps ( a true industry/every where standard, Vishay , Kemet. ) along these 2 last caps.
Just for fun test in your tweeter ( easy to unsolder/solder job. ) the Wima FKP 1 . Its higher capacitance is 4.7 uf so you can choose a couple of FKP 1: 3.3+2.2 or 4.7+1.0 . Caps in parallel works great.
Do it a favor and test it before to think you are not " crazy or foolish " to do it. After 20 hours of play you can make a serious listening tests.
You need to invest a lot less money " ridiculous money " for the 4 ( even 8 to have two alternatives for those 5.6uf. ) Wima caps than what 1 Duelund set you back.
Btw, I think the other cap in your speakers has a 40uf capacitance and for this one I recomended the Wima MKP 10 ( 47uf higher capacitance. ) where you need here too a couple of caps to run in parallel.
Halcro when I tested for the first time I orderd the caps for tweeters and mid range and I tested almost at the same time. You can read the whole experiences in my capacitor thread under tech-talk Agon forum.
You can’t go wrong or lost anything about because if you don’t like it just return to Duelund and if you like it then: good.
R.
The lower Wima tolerance is 5%. Don't worry about no single cap ( and I bougth a lot of ones. ) of those models measured higher than 1.5% tolerance, normally at 1% or lower. |
Dear @best-groove : " with electric pen on the body all the cartridges that pass through his hands..."
Certainly not all. VDH fixed around 10-12 non VDH cartridges with success and only on one of them used an easy to take out stiker. VDH fixed to me and other two gentlemans an almost new EPC100C MK4 cartridges that I don’t knew was a reference for him and still uses.
Is it the best re-tipper out there or the best alternative? maybe not today there are several very good re-tippers but VDH makes a good job in a decent time and not so expensive as some of the other re-tippers.
In the other side nothing is perfect in the audio world that sometimes happens what your brother experienced.
""
do we want to discuss quality controls? "" .
Come on, sometimes even from new top of the line LOMC " things " happens like whe the Anna just appeared in the market. Obviously Ortofon took care of the owners and fixed one for all the " problem " with the next Anna samples.
But rigth in this thread mijostyn posted what happened to him with a new Clearaudio and I remember very well that been at the place of a very good friend in a trip to houston he had mounted in his Rockpot rig a Lyra Titan i and when the cartridge started to track the first LP we detected that something was wrong because we were listened some kind of music/sound but totally wrong, then after a while and checking every where we took in count that the Titan i had not the stylus tip and I saked him how many hour of play had that cartridge and he told me around 200 hours.
Btw, normally I don’t send to any re-tipper a top of the line recent LOMC cartridge but to the manufacturer for a change by.
R.
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Dear @halcro : """
WHY we are able to hear such differences between cartridges, tonearms, turntables, drive-systems, solid state vs vacuum tube.....should make it obvious that we are in the hands of ’Artists’, ’Creators’...""" """"
This state of affairs has not existed in ’Analogue Audio’ for 30 years and the elder masters and craftsmen have virtually all disappeared together with the vast data-banks they had assembled within their mega-billion $ companies. The result has been, that the recent resurgence of ’Analogue Audio’ has inevitably led to ’self-taught’, under-educated and inexperienced ’newbies’ entering the industry to fill the vacuum. Their sole contribution to the ’Art/Science’ of cartridge, tonearm and turntable design is ’technology’ 🙏 They believe that everything can be improved by the advancements in materials science, computers, lasers, 3D printing, CNC machining, chemistry etc. They are mistaken.....! And so are all the gullible, innocent followers of most of the new analogue products launched over the last 15 years. """" I think that when you posted that dayyou wake up very " romantic " and yes about vintage analog rig there is " romanticism " around it. Look, your tonearm that comes from the Cobra one really is about computer software " technology " . Its shape has nothing to do with that art you mentioned. In its site you can read: """""
A complex shape and choice of materials demonstrates a departure from the norm in the commercially available alternatives. Just as Caliburn, the turntable, revolutionised turntable design by use of FEA software and shape optimisation, so too Continuum Audio Laboratories has used the same software technology to derive the new shape and performance parameters of the potent Cobra tonearm. """""
When you posted this : "
innocent followers of most..." You forgot to mention: " me included " because you owned TW TT, ZYX , Da Vinci and other items coming from " mistaken " designers/manufacturers. Could you try to tell us what's wrong with the Ortofon A95 or the Xquisite or Etsuro or Lyra Etna Lambda cartridges and many today " mistaken " designs? or what's wrong with Kuzma 4 point, SME 5, Reed, etc, etc. tonearms? or what's wrong with the @jtinn DD Wave Kinetics turntable?
Of that you can to follow living in the " past " because is what you enjoy through your listening sessions butevery hting in erth is moving on at each " second " and normally for the better ( sometimes is not. ).
Like you I love MUSIC and certainly LPs too but from some time now digital is a superior alternative. Like it or not you can't stop " mistaken " digital technology ( with out that your tonearm just does not existed. ).
I enjoy both alternatives and if you know how to use technology is always welcomed and that's what all those today " mistaken " designers/manufacturers are doing day after day.
You can live sticked to your " art " when all the audio world ( not only analog rig but electronics and the like. ) is MOVE ON in favor of MUSIC.
As you all these is only my opinion, I respect yours.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R.
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Btw, that Talisman aluminum/magnesium cantilever alloy ( for what I remember ) was unique and did it to make the resonant aluminum less resonant through the magnesium combination.
@dover if you own two samples that could means that you like it.
R. |
Dear @dover : What you did not mentuioned yet is that the Sumiko Talisman ( all 3 models ) are truly good quality performers.
I was not aware that were a Sony design/builder in those old times. I still own two of them and really like me.
I don't know if the 88D is a yoke less design because the Talisman it's a yoke less that they patented as Direct Field Focus that " eliminates unnecessary yokes and pole pieces ".
The cartridge is a small one but a big quality performer and even that the models have different build material cantilever and stylus tip all have the same compliance and same cartridge weigth ( 6.3gr. )
The cantilevers are: aluminum/magnesium alloy, boron and sapphire. .
Certainly these Talisman are not ordinary LOMC cartridges.
@intactaudio ""
A few years back when one of the two boron rod manufactures in Japan closed its doors overnight there was a worldwide shortage of boron cantilevers. Boron rod eventually came back on the scene and is my current favorite. "
If I remember due to that " even T JC took precaution and I understand that he bougth boron for his designs.
Btw, hollow boron is way more resonant that a solid/rod boron. I'm not just talking but at least other 2 gentlemans experienced that when our EPC 100C MK4 were fixed with solid boron instead the original tube.
The most critical/crucial issue on cantilever/stylus is to find out the less resonant one and here the cantilever can " speaks " for it self.
R.
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Dear @best-groove @intactaudio : Today and in the past ( too. ) I don't know how many cartridge buyers check how the stylus tip is atached to the cantilever before buy that cartridge.
Maybe not one because who cares about ! !.
Like in other kind of industries and in different times the manufacturers take the build parts that are available in that time in the market and that goes with the quality level they are looking for at an specific price.
I don't know you or other of the gentlemans in this thread but what I buy is a cartridge ( not a cantilever. ) and I don't care about that " no sense/stupid " stylus tip/cantilever issue .
Just imagine a Lyra Etna SL where a buyer decides not to buy it because the cantilever is solid and not a pipe ! ! go figure ! !
As I said that is an STUPIDITY and with all respect to all of you ( me included. ) is stupid to follow arguing about....but.........
R.
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Dear @edgewear : The cantilever build material and in specific diamond against boron needs a little " analysis ".
My take as been no design/build cartridge expert is as coming:
first define the overall cantilever functions that seems to me an " easy " task:
one of that functions is to hold the stylus tip and second ( could be others. ) and along the cartridge suspension is to follow the modulations/vibrations transmited by the stylus grooves riding and this function is way critical because the ideal is to do it/transmit those movements with out adding cantilever self vibrations/resonances.
That last point is impossible to achieve due not only to the strog forces generated during the stylus grooves ridding but because not even the diamond is a perfect non vibrational cantilever material and because each cantilever along the stylus and its fulcrum has a resonance frequency.
So those tiny grooves modulations is desired too be transmitted at fast as it can.
I don’t know if the synthetic diamond used in cantilevers has exactly the same characteristics than the real natural diamond but if we compare differences in between real natural diamond and boron those differences are not night and day ( both materials are away from other cantilever materials. ). Example:
hardness : D= 10 B= 9.3 transmision speed D=18,000 B=16,200
density D=2.41 B=3.5 Young Modulus D=1,050 B=656 ( in other studies says the density of boron is: 2.35. )
All those numbers comes from Namiki site. The biggest difference looks at stifness but the boron still is way superior to other materials but diamond and very good as use in cantilevers.
I can’t see that the build material in a cantilever with diamond or with boron can makes a big differences per sé and what we listen through either material is colored too by the cantilever shape and its length along the quality of the cartridge suspension and cartridge engine/motor.
I think that exist to many variables to confirm with out doubt the absolute superiority of sysnthetic diamond vs boron in cartridge cantilevers.
Well all those and what I posted before on this regards is my amateur opinion.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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@edgewear : That vintage top of the line Micro Seiki TT JC owns it, I don't know if today still has it.
Yes, it is a true beauty and was and is expensive unit.
R. |
edgewear : I was talking more of vintage cartridges than today ones.
In those old times in Japan existed a " savage " competition between cartridge designs and obviously to take higher part of the market with top designs. Tha's why existed so many diamond cantilever designs from well regarded manufacturers. The benefits were for the customers.
One manufacturer told me and it's my take that speaking of diamond cantilever top of the line model the overall build of those cartridges is a lot more " accurated " than with the non diamond cantilevers. Example: estrictc hand selected parts as the cantilever it self the stylus condition/polished, extreme tigth tolerances in the coils, cartridge body construction, kind of dampers, estrict voicing, tight measurements and everything need it for a finished cartridge.
The manufacturer has to do it to put a high price tag, so for me all those is a difference against the " normal " boron cantilever same models.
Diamond as Boron or other cantilever material has its own signature and for unknow to me reasons manufacturers like Dynavector did not choosed diamond cantilever in its today top of the line models neither Lyra and many others.
It's the sum of the parts ( how the manufacturer take care about. ) and not only the diamond cantilever what could make that " not big difference ".
In the other side we audiophiles when bougth a top of the line diamond cantilever at high $$$$ we are biased to think it will performs excellent and better than the non diamond cantilever model, so more or less we are " conditionned " in that way.
The same question that mijos did it to JC I did it in the past too. Could be important and this is for sure that JC can gives to all of us his expert opinion. Maybe his next move could be a diamond cantilver Lyra design. or maybe he knows that diamond can't gives an advantage over his today top Lamda series.
R. |
Dear friends: Diamond cantilever vintage cartridge designs performs really good even the ones that are not one piece cantilever/stylus and one example about is the Audio Technica AT-1000 that edgewear already experienced.
I think that the diamond cantilever cartridges performs as it performs by its overall design and its quality levels of excecution of that design and not because the diamong per sé.
I think too that we never know how those diamond designs could performs with boron cantilevers.
Now if you want other, not named here, very good quality performer diamond cantilever vintage cartridge ( between others. ) that I own look for the Fulton RSD, in 1982 this Fulton item had a price tag of 1.650K and maybe the more expensive cartridge in those times into USA market. Very good performer.
R.
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Dear @edgewear : """
So the use of aluminum cantilever has nothing to do with 'ignorance' on the designer's part ... ""
could be butb in some cases low knowledge design levels is one of the reason for aluminum cantilevers.
In this thread I posted about:
"""
Aluminum in the FR was what the designer like it more when he voiced his cartridges. Cantilever is an important part in the whole cartridge desing but only one part and in the voicing of the manufacturers we are in the " hands " of the designer bias to some kind of sound he was looking for.
Aluminum in the Magic Diamond was or is used not because is the best material but first because use the same cartridge motor of the Denon 103 ( aluminum cantilever. ) and second because was what the biased manufacturer like it.
The use of aluminum material in cantilevers has other reasons additional of what I posted.
One of those reasons could be the low knowledge level of the manufacturer to design something better because if that design only sounds good with aluminum in the cantilever then something is wrong in that design and this is true when the design is a copy of other cartridge where exist true inhabilities to make a design. ""
Btw, like you I really like the Colibri and owned 4-5 samples but the platinum and blackwood one. I owned the Colibri with wood body but was a red/rose one.
Now, the best Colibri cartridge I experienced was one of the first models that cames with small soft plastic body and with cooper coils with an output level of 0.22mv. Till today the best Colibri I experienced in my system and in other systems.
R.
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Dear @halcro : """ in this Thread you are hearing two ’identical’ cartridges with the ’cantilever material’ the only difference. """
identical?, who says that. In this thread exist at least two posts that say different " things " about. In one of them the owner of two Koetsu similar models one with boron cantilever and the other with diamond and he said are not identical/similar and in the other post you can read that designers of same models: one with diamond cantilever and the other with different cantilever material are not similar because the designer takes more care in the whole cantilever diamond design/build cartridge as : tigther tolerances, hand selected stylus, better assembling cartridge body, even calibration to " zero " tolerance specs, etc, etc.
You have many examples of that kind. Example: Stanton 981 model is similar to the 980 cartridge, nothing change down there but that the 981 is CALIBRATED model and its sounds is better with better quality overall performance than the 980 and both use the same cantilever material and everything the " same " but calibration.
88 and 88D are way different cartridges.
""" I do believe that ’choice’ of ’cantilever material’ may be a ’primary’ element in the initial concept of cartridge designers... """
again, whom says that? when cantilever is only one of several parts in the overall cartridge design and certainly not the most important. cartridge motor is the important subject down there like the coils configuration in the Sony models.
One ce J.Carr posted to some one that ask him: " in a cartridge which makes more difference for the better: cantilever build material or stylus shape ? " and JC posted that " cantilever build material was more important " but certainly not the primary characteristic for a cartridge design.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @clearthink : Thank's for your advice that some times is true but here I have good experiences not only with cartridges but with Highphonic.
R. |
Dear @harold-not-the-barrel : Nice to read you are enjoying Highphonic R5 cartridge that was at the middle of the overall Highphonic models.
As I said Highphonic made it very good cartridge designs with very good quality performance faraway of that thin/lean characteristics that the other gentleman posted.
The D15 and 6B are even better than your ruby one and I say this because the differences in price are high in between.
Your R5 competes with the today ART9 and this fact speaks a lot of whom was Highphonic.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dover : You are rigth, mi mistake and apologizes to Moerch designer. Anyway, the example was only to show the existence of copy-cats.
The ones like Magic Diamond that took the Denon 103 cartridge motor for their cartridges do you think they are true cartridge designers?.
In the other side, I owned and still own Highphonic cartridges and at least my samples compared to the Denon DL1000A ( that I owned. ) are everything you want but " thin sound ". I still have the MCA6 with boron cantilever and owned the D15. I agree that the 1000A could stays in the " lean/thin " side but not those 2 Highphonic models. I never heard the R5 that's the one with ruby cantilever..
The Highphonic ex-Denon employees made a good contribution in their designs when gone from aluminum cantilevers to other different cantilever build materials.What did not changed between the 1000A and the Highphonics was its very low output that if I remember is 0.12mv.
Yes, that S3 FR headshells is " terrible " and only degrades the cartridge sound. I did not need it to listed the 88D to post about because for its construction it’s so obvious the " disaster ".
R.
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Dear @best.-groove : The use of aluminum material in cantilevers has other reasons additional of what I posted.
One of those reasons could be the low knowledge level of the manufacturer to design something better because if that design only sounds good with aluminum in the cantilever then something is wrong in that design and this is true when the design is a copy of other cartridge where exist true inhabilities to make a better design.
Copy-cat is and was more often that we can imagine and not only in cartridges but in tonearms or TT and other audio items.
An examples of that could be the Graham tonearm that comes from the vintage Audiocraft tonearm design or the Moerch that comes from the Highphonic tonearm design.
From where came Highphonic cartridges?, well from ex-Denon cartridge employees that founded HP and the first " move " in their new designs came to the cantilever build material that instead to use aluminum like in Denon they started to use carbon fiber, diamond and ruby.
Today there are several cartrisges that uses the Denon 103 cartridge motor or the Benz-Micro one or the VDH one or Goldring and others cartridge motors and this exist because some of the original manufacturers works as OM for marketers./sales companies.
It's like Jelco that additional to his own tonearms the manufacture for Ortofon, Audioques, Sumiko, Koetsu and others.
Scan-Tech build top cartridges for Lyra, Linn, Audioquest, etc, etc.
Of copurse that both examples makes the " new " tonearm or cartridges under the seller specs/characteristics.
R. |
Dear @best-groove : """
From what I read then aluminum is dominant in cantilevers for several expensive... """
no, it's not that way only some models. The SPU case is especial because the 80% of sales are made in Asia and Japanese are so idiocincratic in that cantilever material regards as in other audio items.
Dynavector use diamond and boron, Lyra use Boron, Ortofon diamond and boron in its top models, VdH use boron, Benz-Micro Ruby and boron, Sumiko use Boron, Air Tigth Boron, ZYX boron, My Sonic Labs boron, Koetsu diamond and boron, Clearaudio boron and I can go on listing today tops cartridges but even in the past too berylium, diamond and boron were the materials in the top model cartridge cantilevers: AT, Audio Craft, Audio Note, Technics, Sony, Dynavector, Yamaha, tec, etc.
Aluminum in the FR was what the designer like it more when he voiced his cartridges. Cantilever is an important part in the whole cartridge desing but only one part and in the voicing of the manufacturers we are in the " hands " of the designer bias to some kind of sound he was looking for.
Aluminum in the Magic Diamond was or is used not because is the best material but first because use the same cartridge motor of the Denon 103 ( aluminum cantilever. ) and second because was what the biased manufacturer like it.
I had the opportunity to listen to the MD in a first rate system: Walker TT/tonearm, my Essential phonolinepreamp, speakers by Kharma and the like and is nothing to die for, a good cartridge but nothing more.
Maybe in the future when boron disappears aluminum will grow up but not before because it's an inferior material than boron, saphire, ruby or diamond for cantilever cartridges.
R. |
Dear @dover : You are rigth about the Madrigal Carnegie 1 that came with the triple blend cantilever materials as the Sony but remember that exist the Carnegie 2 that is a different design where the cantilever came of boron and this C 2 as the C1 were a develops shared by Benz/VdH..
I owned the C1 and is not to bad but not so good either when the C2 ( that I still own. ) is very good performer: different design.
"""
would encourage you to find a lighter more rigid headshell - these Sony's are medium compliance and their suspensions are not robust. """
almost any cartridge sounds better in differentb decent tonearms than SAECs and in the especial 8000 model this tonearm was designed for high compliance cartridges , not my words but SAEC ones. Good that you are hearing the " disaster " down there.
R. |
Dear @halcro : """ I couldn’t hear the differences between a SAS-Boron, a NeoSAS-Sapphire and a NeoSAS-Ruby when I did the comparisons a while ago 🤨
It is therefore even more difficult to isolate any differences via YouTube videos.."""
of course you can’t, this fact is already in evidence by your own words.
""" Others (like Frogman, Noromance, Dover) can hear clearly.. """
because these gentlemans are golden ears , I stated that I’m not a golden ear person and that my evaluation process always uses the same LP tracks.
Anyway, you want to build a " case " around me but the problem is your overall way of thinking that’s the same over several years: just can’t grow-up and I don’t know why. Sometimes I think you have some masoqchist signs in your dialogues with me that always are full of agresivity .
I already posted :
"" Another :
"" Believe what he says at your own risk.. ""
when IMHO there was not any necessity to post that refering to me. """
your very first attack with out any reason because I only shared the prices of other cartridges that I took from the Japanese audio Bible that’s not a magazyne but a true book with around 700 pages.
It does not matters what you can post in your favor and what you post hitting me the true fact is that in your room system you just can’t be aware of several kind of resonances/distortions but if you still think that your room/system is no problem then as I posted you are really tolerant or less sensitive that other persons like me.
I think is enough and useless for any one but you to follow this kind of dialogue that you started ( as always. ) whit that post.
Your frustration levels when you " talk " with me is so high that impedes that you can see the reality with that hum,ility you stated before.
Again, enough.
R.
PS: "
can invent 'facts' to prove any nonsense...."""
JC ( as Namiki ) posted that with aluminum cantilevers the stylus can be fitted by presure only and some one of us took it this as an advantage and I was so stupid to ask a rettiper to makes this for some MM carrtridges that latter on and after listening it with aluminum I had to invest again in that carrtridge to change to boron glued stylus type..
JC only posted that but he never used aluminum cantilevers in his Lyra cartridges but other glued materials as the 99.99999% of all top cartridge today manufacturers.
Who can today been so stupid thinking in the " great " presure fitted with cantilever aluminum material?, yes only an stupid: fortunatelly I learned and left my " stupid graded " attitude in those old times. Did you read it well?: I learned !
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Dear @halcro : You have extremely short memory because was you in this thread whom don't resist the temptation when I posted the higher prices of cartridges well above the 88D price and posted:
Another :
""
Believe what he says at your own risk.. ""
when IMHO there was not any necessity to post that refering to me.
Now, even with that truly You Tube " high high resolution " I think you can hear what's obvious but you have to be extremely ingenue/innocent that any one could listen tiny developed kind of distortions though you tube process and then with that signal " destroyed " by the listener rig to listen it.
In the other side if you can't directly at your home system hear the distortions developed by that terrible/disastrous S3 headshell how could you think you will listen it from you tube recording. Makes sense to you? because for me is almost a stupid way of thinking.
Please think for a moment how that S3 " works " against quality when all those ( non-damped. ) metal parts just " inmediatly " return/feedback its developed resonances/distortions to the cartridge cantilevers additional to the tonearm feedback own resonances.
As I posted I experienced with the S3 and with the Goldbug Brier dedicated and similar design headshell.
Any one can see from your system that the room/system it self impedes that you can listen tiny developed distortions due that the subs are rigth below the mounted cartridges and speakers are at " milimeter " from those cartridges, that to big glass table plate just in front of the speakers and that all metal in the parlor furniture and many many other issues that impedes you can listen truly to some kind of distortions. So it's not that you are more tolerant or less sensitive it's only that in your room/system you just can't listen it.
I'm talking of very fine tunned system ( my system. ) with very high resolution where even me that are not a " golden ears " one can detect it and remember that I have a self developed whole evaluation bullet proff process where almost everything is matched including SPLs when I make tests and I do it seated at near field position.
In your party time ( heard my cartridges. ) I read it that the SPL for two different cartridges in the tests were not matched, at least was what a gentleman in that " party " posted about.
So, for all those is futile to make through your " method " any serious evaluations.
You have fun in your " kinder-garden " and go a head, at the end fun is fun.
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
Dear @halcro : Yes, the ceramic SAEC headshells are way resonant but the 8000 was designed with that angled headshell and its low weigth.
The S3 headshell you are using is the one you like it with the 88D but ( again ) that " alive " you mentioned maybe is not all about music sound but added distortions.
Look, I owned that S3 and owned other similar " functions " headshell and both makes more harm to the sound that almost goes against qualityperformance:
in the S3 headshell does not exist a direct intimate contact between the cartridge top plate and the headshell body because the cartridge is mounted in a separated metal plate and is here where the cartridge is atached followed for other link/screw that fix the plate to the headshell with another screw.
I owned the Goldbug Brier that comes with exactly with similar characteristics ( in that regards. ) than the S3 and even that the Goldbug headshell is a true beauty and with a lot higher excecution and quality control than the FR still develop additional distortions that I proved when discovered that the Goldbug Brier cartridge can be mounted in stand alone fashion in any other headshell.
Yes, I know that that way is what you like the more. You are more tolerant or less sensitive to those additional developed distortions than me.
R.
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Dear @larryi : """
starting with a single diamond that is then cut to form the stylus and cantilever, that diamond would have to be pretty low-grade to start with in order for the price to be anything but astronomical. High quality stylus are made from decent quality natural stones with the cutting and shaping done so that the lattice structure is properly oriented to maximize resistance to wear along the contact points. You could not really do this with a truly one-piece stylus-cantilever diamond. """
Interesting issue that maybe only people like the one in Namiki or Scan-Tech can give a confirmation or not about. Maybe J.Carr can do it too.
A one piece cantilever/stylus is not self damped other than the cantilever shape to avoid standing waves.
The normal cartridges with cantilever and glued stylus has that damping through the glue kind of material.
R. |
Dear @halcro : You made comments on some of my posts but not when I " ask " if you preserve the 8000 effective length, offset angle and overhang when you use straigth headshells in that straigth tonearm.
Regarding the same issue the 8000 design is triaxial balanced and direct from SAEC they say:
" The 8000 ST is perfectly balanced on its X, Y and Z axis, wich converge at a single point for perfect lateral balance. ""
That critical balance and the bearing were designed taking in count the length of the tonearm and its mass according the use of the SAEC dedicated headshell.
The S3 FR headshell you said is the one used with the 88D is more than the double the weigth than the SAEC one and that over-weigth stays where coul do more harm: where MOI is affected the more.
Unfortunatelly I sold my 8000 and I can’t be sure which kind of additional distortions could be generated using that kind of straigth headshell with the 88D.
SAEC tonearms were famous in Japan for its " live/detailed " ( that some times means higher distortions and not a true live or detailed sound. ) kind of sound against the MS MAX 282 and this is not my opinion but what the japanese people opinions on those old times: they had preferences by the SAECs vs MS MAX that IMHO is way better tonearm design and way better performer.
About the SAEC knife bearing Dr Sao Win that was TT and cartridge manufacturer ( between other audio items. ) in his manual of his LOMC cartridge we can read a warning to not use his cartridge in a knife tonearm bearing designs.
Anyway, your coments about thet S3 along the 8000 are welcome especially because you posted the 88D is your HG. Do you already tested the 88D in other tonearm/TT or wit the SAEC headshell ?
Thank’s in advance,
R. |
Dear @edgewear : I owned both: the Rex and the 1000 and performs different and both are not shy in the low registers.
The problem in the halcro system was the reason about those low registers he did not like it. Somewuere down there: tonearm, TT or in another system link.
I think you will like the JVC/Victor 1000 but IMHO nothing to die for but maybe in your system could be true synergy in between, I hope be that way.
R. |
Dear @edgewear : ""
what has been the reason of your decision never to use diamond as cantilever material. Just curious! ""
It's obvious that he has very good reasons not use that material in the cantilever.
He is a cartridge designer but it's not the only today cartridge designer and exist at least 5 of them that use that synthetic diamond in some of their designs: Dynavector from the old times, Koetsu, ZYX that a little weird but today its top of the line series does not uses synthetic diamond but carbon cantilevers, Etsuro and Ortofon but this Denmark manufacturer choosed to use syntethic diamond after one century from was founded because never did it in the past and did it just for this way important anniversary ( the Anna too but is not usual with this company. ).
I think that JC can't post something about that could cause a controversy between he and his manufacturer colleagues. Btw, he already listened the 88D and even that .....! ?
Of course that we audiophiles want to know about, more than" just curiosity ".
There are today several cartridge designers that for whatever reasons really don't " trust " in synthetic diamond for their top of the line cartridges: Lyra, Clearaudio, Denon ( never used that material. ), Audio Technica, My Sonic Lab, VdH, ZYX, Allaerts, Ikeda, Shelter, EMT,SoundSmith, Benz Micro, etc, etc.
In the old times very well regarded manufacturers neither use synthetic diamond: Accuphase, Audiocraft, Denon, Audio Note, Goldbug, FR, Technics, and many others.
Btw and due that you are " collecting " that kind of cartridges you need to put your hands in the Highphonic D15 ( ex-Denon workers. ) and the Supex 1100D ( I owned the 1100 R that's really good performer . ).
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R.
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Dear @mijostyn : The SG overall concept is just great and I think superior to the other kind of cartridge designs but exist a little problem and that's that the LPs comes with the RIAA eq. and SG does not follows that standard and exist frequency deviations from there.
As you know in audio everything has its own trade-offs and the SG is not an exception.
R.
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tery9 : You win, good. Nothing wrong with that.
R. |
mijostyn : I know that RIAA is for velocity sense transducer where the strain gauge is an amplitud transducer and in both designs exist trade-offs.
Exist several SG owners that are truly satisified with. Maybe you could try too.
R. |
mijostyn, you can try current mode but if your choice is a strain gauge one remember that this is a dedicated item for that cartridge.
Btw, years ago were a discussion thread talking about the SS strain gauge where , in those times, the unit does not conforms with the RIAA standard and the designer asaid that its unit in " natural " way conforms ( more or less. ) with the RIAA. There was proved that was not exactly true.
In that time the manufacturer posted on the SG : "" it was +/- 1dB from 50 Hz to 12K in "" ( a 2db swing. ) way out of RIAA standard. I don’t know it performs today in that regards.
I don’t know, today, for sure about.
R. |
@terry9 : Again, assuming you are rigth ( no evidence about in this specific application. Facts. ) then all cartridge designers, not only JC, are wrong .
So, why don't try to prove them that they are wrong and must leave to use boron as material in their cantilever cartridge.
R. |
Dear @terry9 : "
If we assume the a wobbly junction of stylus to cantilever is undesirable..."
the key word is that " wobbly ". I don't think that the stylus tip in a boron top design could be wobbly as you assume because if that is true then due that no rigidity down there the designers just give up on boron and things are that it's not this way.
That could means that exist enough rigidity for the cartridge makes its job.
Ruby/Sapphire cantilever function as the diamond in that regards and common sense says that if what you posted is true all the cartridges will come with diamond/ruby/sapphire cantilevers and never boron.
Again, an overall cartridge quality performance is the sum of its design parts and quality levels of the excecution to those designs.
R.
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mijostyn, you are rigth the LOMC are overpriced and the tendence that one.
Dover posted and I agree that for a top LOMC can shows its superior quality performance over different designs you need a top phonolinepreamp design and I think that maybe you have not yet .
Anyway, your choice and I respect it.
R.
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@mijostyn lewm : signal pass through the coil wires of any cartridge design or not? because this is my point not other.
R.
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lewm, what's your take on the cartridge coil wire length? doyou don't care about. Has a role or not in the overall cartridge quality performance?
R.
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Dear @lewm : ZYX, Vdh and other cartridge manufacturers use: cooper, silver and gold coil wire models and the owners experienced different kind of quality levels in the reproduced sound ( models with the same output. ).
All those owners experiences/facts shows the critical importance of the coil wire quality and not only that but the coil shape and obviously the length of that coil wire that as shorter the best.
Any wire in any audio high end application degrades the audio signal so as shorter the lower " damage ". We have to understood that coil wires is the first wire where the extreme sensible cartridge signal must pass through, what we lost there is losted for ever. Pure and simple.
R.
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Dear @terry9 : Maybe you are rigth maybe not . I think that the glue could be a kind of damping to those stong forces developed not only by the groove modulations but by the friction of the stylus tip, I don't know.
Perhaps only a cartridge designer/manufacturer can pút some ligth about.
In a cartridge design/build every single part counts for the better or degrading the overall design.
What's more or less clear to me is that the synthetic diamond per sé makes not the touted differences against an extreme good cantilever material as boron.
Anyway, with out a post of experts as @jcarr we really can't know about, at least not me.
R. |
to make very good busine$$ today.
Nothing wrong with that because customers are free to choose or not about. |
Dear @mijostyn : which one of these cartridges performs the best: Lyra Etna or Lyra Etna SL ).
Rigth, the SL that has lower output and this means less wire in the coils where the sensitive audio signal always takes degradation. Lower inductance too.
I like a lot Vdh cartridges but I don't like its medium/high output models but the lower than 0.3mv.
To much coil wire in the MM cartridges.
Anyway, as I posted we can follow with the diamond cantilevers that in some ways looks as a builded " mirage ".
R. |
Dear @mijostyn : "
I am beginning to think moving coil cartridges are a waste of money and that you can get equal or better performance out of much less expensive moving magnet and iron cartridges. "
Everything the same ( as I posted before. ) there is no single MM that can outperform the LOMC.
You said that the LOMC cartridges has not the " punch " of the MM and by coincidence this kind of " punch " was what impressed me with hundreds of cartridge in the long thread and I posted several times down there.
But that " punch " is non-accurated, the MM bass range it's not it has not the tigth LOMC bass performance that's more as what we listen in a live MUSIC even at near field position.
Yes that " punch " could be addictive but " false ", it's a distorted frequency sound. The time decay in MM ( especially vintages. ) is way longer and with overhang. The best MM by a wide margin is the Technics EPC100 C MK4 ( stand alone version. ) and the closer one to a LOMC cartridge.
MI makes a better overal job and certainly are nearer to the LOMC ones but as @dover posted if you have the rigth phonolinepreamp LOMC is a little superior design.
""
My point is there are MM and MI cartridges that out perform some LOMC cartridges. ""
Of course that could be true but depends the choosed MM/MI against which LOMC is the comparison and in which room/audio system.
""
JC may think they are better...""
I think that he not only " think " that LOMC are better but can prove it if necessary.
Unfortunatelly we audiophiles puit a lot of subjectivity in our opinions and almost no facts as comparisons against live MUSIC events seated a near field position. The main issue is not what we like but what is rigth or wrong.
Anyway, the thread is about diamond cantilevers.
R. |
Dear @mijostyn : Boron alone is way more stiffer that any other cantilever but natural diamond ( again, I don't know if the synthetic/industrial diamond shares exactly the same characterisitcs than the natural jewel. ).
Boron Young Modulus is 656 when aluminum is 68 or synthetic ruby 372.
I think that exist a limit where above it higher stiffness makes no difference, so maybe the higher stiffness of the natural diamond ( 1,050. ) could not make a true differences in this specific cantilever " job ". Who knows?
In the other side many things around the cartridge cantilever diamond models makes no sense other that manufacturers goes way higher in the cartridge price tag and I say this because from some years now has in its cartridge catalog 1 or 2 diamond cantilever models ( not expensive ones. ) and things are that no one is the top of the line but ( like today ) cartridges with boron cantilevers ! ? ! ?
@dover is rigth and I disagree with you about LOMC quality level performance that can be outperformed by MM/MI cartridges that's an " inferior " cartridge design.
Now and this is critical: dover said the importance of the rigth phono stage that can or can't be the " problem " with LOMC cartridges because for a LOMC one could shows all its glory we need a very good phono stage and these units are not inexpensive one ( except the PS Audio Stellar unit. ).
Everything the same a LOMC quality level performance beats an MM or MI cartridge. As dover I prefer too MI.
Everything has its own quality levels and I have to say that there are MM and MI cartridges that are ( specially MI ) really good performers.
If we comment this with JC he will tell us that MM develops higher distortions that LOMC cartridges and I know because that was his answer in the long MM thread.
Yes, I'm with LOMC but I know too that I can't totally diminish the other cartridge design contenders.
R. |
Dear @bestgroove : "
In 40 years of owning over 80 cartridges (both vintage and modern)...I can honestly say NO . """" perhaps someone in his turntable and system does not find it so marvelous...""" Rigth, halcro opinion is only his opinion. In audio we need to be a very knowledge man with full expertise and understanding not only on sound/home audio but in MUSIC too to give or post " the best " on anything. Other problem is that each one of us normally have different music/sound priorities and this fact makes " things " more complex to find out a true " the best " of audio items. R. |
This is another example of: " at your own risk ",. you can’t buy a new cartridge that sounds better than the XL88D? In 40 years of owning over 80 cartridges (both vintage and modern)...I can honestly say NO . """" Only an opinion. A respectable opinion but nothing more than that. @halcro , got it? You are rigth the 55 does not came with boron cantilever but a blended one: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/sony/xl-55-pro.shtml exist a 44B that came with boron cantilever. Btw, the 55 models seen the " ligth " before the 88 and were in the 55 where we can find out the famous 8 figure at the coils that shared to the 88 models. I wonder why the 88 has higher output than the 55: 0.4mv vs 0.2mv in the 55. Other than that differences are at the cantilever material and stylus shape. The Sony model that comes with the same 88 stylus shape is the 44L. R. |
About the AT1000MC that's the information that the AT President and Director here en México told me that was and is my friend. When those two samples arrived here ( one for my friend and one for me. ) not even exist in USA or Canada or other place in America Continent.
In those old times I was really far away to be an " expert " in cartridges ( not even today. ) and for me the MC ones were a " news ".
Btw, I bougth it at very low price: AT cost free shipping to México. ! !
So I could be wrong on the characteristic but it's what remember my friend told me. Tha's all.
R. |
Dear @halcro : I forgot the Audio Note IO Limited for 160K Yens. "" (according to Raul) ..."" , well it’s according the official Japanese audio Bible ( hard paper. ). """ Another case of:- Believe what he says at your own risk.. """#
You can’t stay with the mouth closed when I post in your thread and I say this because your statement was and is exactly dedicated to you. You gave wrong/untrue information and if some one ( in this case my self. ) did not disclosed all of us believe your words " at our own risk.
When some one post something in any thread gave us opinions that we can take " at our own risk ". So why re-mark that because my post? ? ? ?
Btw, I figure out that the straigth headshells you use in the 8000 straigth arm wand permits that preserving the 306 tonearm effective length mount the cartridges with the correct ( around 18° ) offset angle and overhang. At least you posted about with out explanation.
Anyway nothing that affect me.
R. |
Dear @halcro : Who needs...?
As a fact no one. Diamond or Ruby per sé does makes better cartridges at any price.
Dyna is an example of that because Dyna today top of the line models just does not use diamond.
"""
and technological achievement,... "", well Sony was not alone, I owned the MC1000 by AT that came exactly the same: cantilever and stylus in one piece.
Regarding the " statement " you pasted about the Koetsu stones and that's your way of thinking too is not true/wrong.
The Ortofon Anna Diamond is not exactly the Anna as are not the K siamond stones or any other very high price today diamond cantilever cartridges.
Its very high price comes because the diamond models ( like the Anna or whatever. ) even that looks similiar but the cantilever to its " top little brothers " are manufactured with extremely tigth tolerances than the other models even in the cartridge bodies ( sometimes reinforced for less body developed vibrations. ), choosed by hand the best stylus tips ( in the Ortofon the Replicant: they choose the more accurated . ).
Same grade of tigth tolerances and accuracy about cartridge suspension, coils and electrical parameters. The cartridge overall equilibrium is way better than the non diamond cantilever similar models.
I took those information directkly from AST engineers years ago when ask for the high price in my AT sample.
In the other side: """
it was the most expensive phono cartridge in the world ...""", well this tstatement unfortunatelly is untrue too.
In those times the Sony had a price of 150K Yens when my AT was 200K but the AT was not the only cartridge more expensive than the Sony you own, the following top of the line were more expensive too: Supex D for 270K Yens, Highphonic for 158K, Jeweltone for 200K, Physics for 250K, Final for 230K, the Dyna at similar price than the Sony and the Sonovox for only 330K !
Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS,
R. |
