Still no XL-88D Custom on the horizon, but I did manage to pick up an XL-55Pro II. This occupies a totally different sonic universe that the standard XL-55 which I also owned. The output is about the same at 0,2 mV, but internal impedance is much lower at 10 ohms. Stylus profile seems different as well. Perhaps it incorporates some of the design cues from the XL-88 series?
The sonic improvement is so enormous that a mark II model change doesn’t seem to do it justice. Perhaps this is why it’s a bit of a sleeper. At least it didn’t cost me more than the market value of the standard XL-55. 😀
Hearing what this cartridge can do, my curiosity for the XL-88D (Custom) has reached boiling point. Does anyone know more about the history of this Pro II model and how it compares to the XL-88 series?
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The elusive Sony XL88D Custom is now offered on Yahoo for the princely ’buy it now’ sum of $3500. This is the one cartridge I would still very much like to add to my collection, but I don’t have the balls to lay out this kind of money for a 40 years old cartridge from an unknown seller without prior inspection.
So it’s too big a gamble, but perhaps some of you are braver than me..... |
Dear Halcro, was this the recent Yahoo auction? If so, you overbid me (and others of course). Good for you, I'm sure it's an amazing cartridge. I didn't dare to go higher, because I too was aware there's no replacement for its one piece cantilever/stylus assembly. But the auction high bid was still a bargain. Enjoy it with caution!
None of the current diamond cantilevers are one piece like the Sony. As far as I know it was unique and understandibly very costly to manufacture. I don't really understand why the current ones are so expensive. It is unlikely that the industrial diamond they use nowadays justify these prices, but I assume 'millionaire marketing' and 'trophyism' go a long way explaining current pricing tactics.
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I looked up the Namiki website, where they offer a variety of cantilever materials: aluminum, zircon, boron, sapphire, ruby and - yup - diamond. Alas, no info on prices, but cartridge manufacturers apparently can buy these off the shelve. Perhaps retippers too?
If so, I might consider to have my Kiseki Lapis Lazuli retipped. This cartridge originally had a diamond cantilever (although not the one piece assembly like Sony). Unfortunately I never heard it like this, because the previous owner had it already retipped by vdHul with a boron cantilever. While I adore this cartridge 'as is', the possibility to 'restore' it back to its original design (when the inevitable retip comes) might be interesting to compare both materials.
But the Namiki diamond cantilever will likely come with their own micro ridge tip instead of a vdHul tip. So it's 'apples and oranges' again, but perhaps still worth a try.
Does anyone know of retippers who offer a diamond cantilever option?
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I think the one on Yahoo two weeks ago went for around $1500......
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Dear Halcro,
No worries, I was one of those cowards who folded at $1000. 😞 Double that amount is a pretty sum, but I have no doubt it will stand comparison with any of today's $10k plus cartridges. Looking at it this way it's still a bargain. 😀
BTW, I took my revenge last week, winning an auction for the Victor MC-L1000, another of those classic cartridges I simply must hear. Do you have this and if so, what do you think of it?
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@nandric, I'm not an expert or technician so I may well be mistaken, but I was under the impression that the design of the Victor with the coils 'direct coupled' to the stylus bears some resemblance to Ikeda's design, which also has the coils very close to the stylus, while even discarding a cantilever. The Decca is another variation on this 'direct' theme, although not of the MC kind. As is the Neumann DST, the most elusive (and bulky) member of this species.
Whether or not this presumed design resemblance translates to similar sonic characteristics remains to be heard. Which is one of the reasons I'm so curious to hear the Victor. As well as the Neumann, but that will probably never happen.
Interestingly, I learned that the designer of the Victor (a gentleman by the name of Mr. Kanno) is the same person responsible for the Phasemation cartridges. I happen to own a Phasemation P-3G (now updated as PP-300), which is a massive overachiever for its modest price. I find it interesting if I can detect a 'designer signature' across various generations of their cartridges. Sometimes there is, sometimes not.
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Dear Halcro,
Yes, I'm eagerly anticipating its arrival and will report my findings. Based on its construction and design I would expect it to have some similarities with my Ikeda 9 Rex (which is definitely NOT shy in the lower registers). We'll see how it turns out.
This was my first Yahoo auction, but I'll admit I'm less brave than you are. I know a trusted person in Japan doing the bidding for me and handling the transaction. He reads the Japanese description (the English translation as you say is useless) and will even contact the seller for more info if needed.
@best-groove: good to know Daniele can fix it if there's a problem. I hope it won't be needed, but thanks for the tip.
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I'm not familiar with the kind of mark ups that are common in the audio industry, but a $565 difference between boron and diamond cantilevers - while substantial - doesn't seem to justify the enormous price hike charged for models with this option. If Koetsu and others source their diamond cantilevers from Namiki, they sure make a nice profit with these models.
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Sorry to stay off topic, but you gentlemen have me worried now. I was aware that the Victor is quite a delicate device, but I didn't realize it was this fragile. I'll keep my fingers crossed that the one I'm about to receive will be one of the - ahum - rare 'working samples'. Fortunately it can be repaired if need be.
BTW: I intend to install it in my Audiocraft AC-4400 tonearm with MC SL/T straight armpipe. Has anyone tried this combination? If that doesn't turn out to be a good match, I will try it in the FR-64S. Just about every cart I own sounds good in that arm.
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Dear Nandric, I do not wish to dwell on ’linguistic constructions’, but I’d say phono cartridges as a species could be called ’delicate’. Meaning not much is required to destroy their proper working. However there are huge differences within the species. I would describe cartridges like SPU and FR7 as ’robust’, while the Victor would probably fall in the ’fragile’ camp. Believe me, I have a firm grasp on its meaning! Operating a vdHul Colibri for years has been most educational......
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The off topic divertimento is highly amusing and could be summed up by paraphrasing Basil Fa(u)wlty in one of those hilarious episodes of Fawlty Towers: "Don’t mention the Mexican".
As for cantilevers (another highly amusing topic) I like frogman’s take on the matter. It’s the interaction with the other parts of the cartridge that determines the final result. I have had the opportunity to compare various vdHul Colibri models. As you may know they all share the same short boron cantilever, but offer a choice of body materials (aluminum, plastic or wood) and coils (copper, gold and platinum, the latter no longer available). The sonic difference between e.g. the small aluminum body with copper coils and the (larger) Blackwood body with platinum coils - remember: both with the same cantilever/stylus assembly - was overwhelming. And much larger than between the Blackwood and ANY of my cartridges with aluminum cantilever. The LW aluminum / gold version of the Colibri was excessively bright and agressive in my system, while the Blackwood / platinum gave the perfect balance of transparency and sweetness (it’s the one I kept in the end). The difference was really extreme and something I would never have anticipated within one model range. BTW: these and other Colibri versions were all compared in the same Reed P3 arm.
Ergo: don’t overestimate the importance of the cantilever material, as it is just one piece of the puzzle. As frogman suggested, the combination of a plastic body and a diamond cantilever in the 88D may well hit a perfect balance. I have an XL-44 (similar motor to XL-55 and 88 series), which is a nice enough cartridge but perhaps a bit too polite. I can imagine it could change gears having a diamond cantilever fitted. I have no doubt that the 88D is one hell of a cartridge, so Halcro enjoy it while you can.
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You're welcome, Halcro!
If the assumption that the sound of a cartridge is determined by its performance as a system - built from various part that all have different sonic characteristics - is correct, than the cantilever is just one of the ingredients to 'tailor' the sound. Just as coil and body materials are, as my little 'shoot out' with the Colibri's - with boron cantilevers and vdH tip as the only constant - made abundantly clear (I wish I had the opportunity then to record these differences, as Halcro is doing now).
Other manufacturers use the same motor and coils and offer different cantilevers and/or tips as 'options'. Like the obscure Ozawa and Klipsch cartridges I happen to love, which offered aluminum, boron and ruby (and even diamond) cantilevers in otherwise the same carts with identical specs. But they surely will have sounded different, otherwise what's the point? Even today, Matsudaira san offers duraliminum and boron as cantilever options for MySonic Lab. In all these cases the boron versions are more expensive than (dur)aluminum, but does that imply they are better? Not necessarily, just different.
So the use of aluminum cantilever has nothing to do with 'ignorance' on the designer's part (as he who should not be mentioned seems to think), but with deliberate design choices. Sometimes for purely sonic reasons (as with Ikeda, Takeda and Brakemeier), sometimes to deliver different options at different price point (as Matsudaira and many others). Including Mori, who was apparently given 'carte blanche' with the 88D to extract the maximum performance from his 'figure 8' design invention. I'm sure the results are spectacular.
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Halcro, the XL-88D custom has an integrated headshell, like the XL-55 Pro. There are better pictures that also show the words 'Sony Sound Tec' on the red upper part of the shell. This version may even be more rare than your - uh - 'regular' 88D. I've never seen one for sale, but it's the version I'd most like to get my hands on......
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Are we creating our own little 'echo chamber' here?
As said, the custom model has an integrated headshell. Just Google XL-88D and the pictures pop up....
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Interestingly, when you put together the price comparisons made in the above posts, you'd have to conclude that a Micro RX-5000 cost about the same as a Volkswagen in the 1980's.
If you look at it this way the price of current turntables doesn't appear so ludicrous after all, despite criticism on current high end audio pricing tactics. For instance, the TechDas AirForce III could be regarded as a modern version of the Micro SX-5000 Air (the more costly air bearing version of the RX-5000) and costs around $30k. I guess this is comparable to the price of a mid class Volkswagen these days, right?
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@gallus, you don't know how lucky you are living in Germany when it comes to the prices of German cars. In the flat country to your left a basic Golf costs €25k. I already knew we have a greedy government, but I never realized THIS difference...... :-(
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Yeah, it's always difficult to predict the outcome of auctions. But if there's one - albeit counter intuitive - rule, it's this: auctions that are pretty high up early on often get 'stuck' somewhere, probably because many bidders drop out before the end thinking it will go through the roof. Just as you expected what would happen here.
So, after missing out on the 88D twice, I'm gearing up for a third chance in 2020 on a 88D Custom........ 😉
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For those lusting for the XL-88D after reading this thread, there's another one up for auction on Yahoo Japan. Also in great shape by looking at the photos. Less than 5 hours to go, more than 40 bids and the price soaring at around $1400.......
Unfortunately the timing is all wrong for me at the moment, as I just took delivery of a Dynavector Karat Nova 13D. Yep, also diamond cantilever, but not a one piece cantilever/stylus assembly like the Sony. I don't know if it's down to the (very short) diamond cantilever or other design aspects, but it's in a totally different universe than my Karat Ruby 23RS. It sounds very smooth and relaxed, but with a sense of energy reserve just waiting to jump up on you. Which it most certainly does when the music calls for it.
It came without the original papers, so does anyone have first hand info about the specifications?
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Dear @jcarr and others, do any of you have information about the Takai Laboratory Final MC cartridge? Yesterday Hifishark had a Yahoo auction listed of this intriguing beast.
The integrated headshell body looks like a Sony XL-44, but is painted in blue/grey with a copper top plate. The big surprise is that it sports Sony’s unique one piece diamond/stylus assembly. I’m not sure, but judging from the pictures it seems to have a long joint pipe and fairly short cantilever as described by @jcarr, so apparently identical to the standard XL-88D. Could this be considered a worthy alternative to the Sony?
BTW, I recently acquired an AT1000MC. The diamond cantilever has an oblique cut, but the stylus is inserted in a way similar to the Dynavector diamond cantilever assemblies. So not of one piece like the Sony. It does sound terrific though.....
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Dear Jonathan, thanks for your information about the history of this cartridge. Much appreciated! This is the kind of insider knowledge which makes this forum such an invaluable source. Glad you’re still willing to take the time to contribute.
The auction ended yesterday at a smidgen under 200.000 JPY and I’m happy to disclose that my Japanese contact has won it! He will send it to me in due course, with an additional (but very reasonable) ’finders fee’ added. I missed out twice on an XL-88D and after Halcro’s glowing descriptions I’m very excited to finally hear the one-piece diamond cantilever/stylus myself.
The integrated headshell is a limitation I’ve learned to live with, with cartridges like SPU, FR7, Entré Soltear II and Sony XL-55 Pro II. I can make all of them sound great in FR-64S and Audiocraft AC-4400, although the collar to tip distance is not the same in all cases (ranges between 49 and 51mm). The spec sheet of XL-44 (with 49mm distance) even claims that variations within that 2mm range don’t impact sound quality. I’ve also noticed that Ortofon is not too meticulous about observing the required 51mm collar to stylus distance for the SPU’s. I’m well aware this runs against the grain of the meticulous P2S alignment methods considered mandatory today, but in practice it does seem to work fine without audible distortion. What are your thoughts about this?
As a good audiogon citizen I will report back when I have taken delivery of this Takai Lab Final MC. I’ve promised myself this should indeed be my - uh - final MC cartridge. Yeah, right 😉
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@dover, I will do so and perhaps even set up some kind of vintage ’diamond cantilever’ shoot out after delivery of the Final. The other contenders would be Audio Technica AT-1000MC, Dynavector Karat Nova 13D, Entré Soltear II and Sato Musen Zen Diamond.
In case you’re wondering, I don’t have any of the 10k ’modern’ cartridges with diamond cantilever to compare them to. At these prices I’m not going to either.
@jcarr I would be most interested to hear the story behind the Entré Soltear II and Sato Musen Zen Diamond. I know that the Entré was designed by Matsudaira-San and the Soltear II looks like a variant of the EC-30 with diamond cantilever (oblique cut but different from AT-1000MC). The Zen Diamond is based on the Victor direct couple design by Kanno-San, but with a diamond cantilever with a slightly tapered round pipe (similar to the Dyna 13D). Any insider stories you’d like to share about these?
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@rauliruegas there are cases where identical cartridges are offered with either boron or diamond cantilevers, like Ortofon MC Anna, Transfiguration Proteus and the gemstone Koetsu's. So direct comparisons are possible to judge the added value (sonic, not monetary) that diamond cantilevers might bring.
My own experience is limited to the Matsudaira designed Entré EC-30 (boron cantilever) and Soltear II (diamond cantilever), both sharing the same specs and the same integrated headshell. Although the Soltear performs on a higher level, it's not a big difference.
Never heard of the Fulton RSD, thanks for mentioning.
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@rauliruegas interesting point to suggest that some manufacturers reserve the use of a diamond cantilever for samples with the most stringently selected parts. In that case the diamond is 'the icing in the cake' and the extra charge not just for the higher cost of the diamond material, but also reflecting the value of the higher quality samples, which obviously translates to better performance.
I hope you are correct, but I have my doubts as there are huge differences in the way manufacturers offer the 'diamond option'. Ortofon charges around $1500 extra for the Anna Diamond (mostly reflecting the extra material cost), whereas Koetsu charges something like $4000. Call me cynical, but I can't shake the feeling that the market demand for 'trophies for the rich' has something to do with it as well. Perhaps snob appeal was also the reason these vintage diamond cantilever cartridges were produced, but somehow I doubt that. As you suggest, competition back than was probably more driven by performance than by marketing. |
Yeah, what a gorgeous piece!
It would be interesting to know how this compares to the current TechDas AirForce tables. Nishikawa-San designed both, so this would be a great way of gauging the impact of new technology and engineering capabilities as well as the learning curve of its designer over the course of 30+ years.
Unfortunately I’ve never seen let alone heard either of these tables, so this is something I won’t be able to experience for myself. But I’d like to hear stories of people who did. |
@best-groove, not sure what you are getting at here?
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I suppose your comment was aimed at the old discussion about Victor MC-L1000. The sample I received was in pristine condition and is still working great. I'm aware of its vulnerability, so I use it sparingly and only with clean records.
BTW, Daniele of cartridgelab did a great job on my Dynavector DV-30C and was a very pleasant guy to communicate with. I wouldn't hesitate to call on him when the need arrives. |
Agreed, I suspect the extra $4000 Koetsu charges for a diamond cantilever has everything to do with snob appeal and 'trophies for the rich' marketing tactics.
I've read somewhere that Namiki charges around $1000 for their diamond cantilever/stylus assembly, so the $1500 extra Ortofon charges for the MC Anna Diamond (with their Replicant 100 stylus, so probably not sourced from Namiki) over the regular version with boron cantilever seems more reasonable. Whether this translates to better sound is open to debate. Of course the reviewers say 'yes', but they're just the mouthpiece for the industry. They just as easily try to convince people that Koetsu's surcharge is also money well spent.
Sure enough, it would be most interesting to know why JC and - for example - AJ (van den Hul) never issued a model with diamond cantilever. They must surely have considered this. I recently made direct contact with AJ about another matter, so perhaps I'll get the chance to ask him about this. And hopefully JC will take the bait here....!
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Gentlemen, pleeeze......
This thread is about the merits of diamond cantilevers or the lack thereof. We finally had JC back in here, the one person with more knowledge about cartridges than all of us combined. We were hoping he would be willing to shed his light, especially as he has never used diamond cantilevers in Lyra cartridges, which is probably not by accident.
He hasn’t yet taken the bait and respond to that question. I assume this childish and hostile bickering amongst yourselves isn’t going to help. This kind of behaviour probably drove him away in the first place.
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@nandric following up on your last sentence I'm still hoping JCarr will revisited this thread and explain more about what judgment calls designers make in mixing & matching various materials within their basic designs. Every design and part choice has an effect on sound quality, that much we can agree on. And so the variations are pretty much endless, which explains why no two cartridges sound the same. I think it's fair to say that science and art are on equal footing here.
That being said, I still think it's interesting to know if diamond as a cantilever material is capable of potentially lifting the performance plateau as a result of its intrinsic properties. We don't know the answer to that one. A cartridge designer of reputation who has experimented with it most likely could, regardless of whether he decides to use it or not.
What interests me in certain vintage cartridges is that materials were used that are no longer available. Especially when it's very unlikely these 'elements' will ever be reintroduced on the market, like those one piece diamond cantilever/stylus units from Sony.
In a way it's the search for a sound that has gone and will never come back. Regardless whether that sound is any better than today's designs. Probably not, but that isn't really the point is it?
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Once again, Halcro started this thread with the question ’who needs a diamond cantilever?’ He answers affirmative and so do I. If you don’t, good for you. Do whatever comes natural to you.
But I hope you don’t mind if I continue my ’mental masturbation’, a choice of words which does sound a teeny weeny little bit condescending, wouldn’t you agree?
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@halcro I've just joined your nightmarish scenario. A cartridge with irreplacable cantilever, irreplacable stylus and irreplacable sound! I completely share your sentiments and I'm glad I followed your lead!
@jcarr & @dover,
I promised to be a good audiogon citizen and report on the Takai Lab Final MC, equipped with the Sony one piece diamond cantilever/stylus. So here goes:
It has been playing records these past two days in a way that is leaving an indelible impression on my ears and soul, while knowing that each record played moves it closer to its inevitable 'end of cycle'. So I'm going to use it sparingly on non casual listening sessions with the best sounding records I have in house.
This will be really hard to do, as EVERY record sounds special with this device. Its sonic character can be described as warm and wide open at the same time, that most difficult of ying/yang balancing acts. Also special is the way it handles dynamic crescendo's, which blow up like a balloon in all directions and always with the feeling that it can get bigger yet. Which sure enough it does when the music calls for it.
But the most extraordinary characteristic is the way it folows the musical argument and handles the inner voices, meaning all sorts of musical lines normally buried in the mix that are clear as day and easy to follow. One of my favorite pieces of music is Luciano Berio's Folk Songs, performed by Cathy Berberian and the Juilliard Ensemble conducted by the composer (on RCA UK pressing). The instruments jump up on you like 'African rabbits' (to quote Arthur Salvatore's phrase to describe scary real dynamic jumps of even the friendliest of instruments). It's these kinds of little epiphanies that glue you to the listening seat. Not using this cartridge constantly in an attempt to extend its lifespan will require restraint which will probably be good for character, but also a mild form of torture. But Halcro gave all the warning signals......
It's impossible to say if all of this can be attributed to the one piece diamond cantilever/stylus, but I know for a fact that none of my other cartridges can make this same kind of impression. Edge of the seat stuff indeed!
PS: my sincere apologies for this interruption. Now the other folks can continue to go on off topic again about MM, MI, SG and all manner of subjects that have nothing whatsoever to do with diamond cantilevers.😱
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Dear Jonathan, thanks for your response. I agree I got a pretty good deal and the cartridge is in excellent condition and by visual inspection the stylus doesn't seem to have many hours on it.
My initial impressions are above, but I will certainly try all set up approaches to get the best out of it. It now sits at the end of an Audiocraft AC-4400, with the oil damping around 50%, VTA with the arm in horizontal position, VTF at 1,5 grams and loading impedance at 500 ohms.
I would still like to hear from you what has been the reason of your decision never to use diamond as cantilever material. Just curious!
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Dear @halcro yes, I follow your logic. My ears sure aren't getting any better with aging and mild tinnitus for good measure. In fact I wasn't too sure I would be able to hear the things you had described. But thankfully I did and will make an effort to get the most out of it. While curiosity to discover new things is one of the human qualities that makes life interesting, this could very well be my 'final' cartridge.
Like you I have many cartridges, all with different strengths (and weaknesses). To give a few examples: for sheer tonal beauty there's Miyabi, for speed and explosive micro dynamics there's VdHul Colibri, for ballooning macro dynamic crescendo's there's Ikeda 9 Rex, for ultimate detail retrieval there's Transfiguration Proteus, etcetera. Obviously I haven't heard all the contenders and Lyra Atlas (or Olympos) is still on my 'must hear' list.
But so far none of these cartridges can do it ALL at the same time in the same self-evident manner as the Final/Sony. The way I see it, designers active today should make an effort to hear it and study it as a benchmark. Perhaps some current designs already have these same capabilities. If so, I'd like to hear (about) it.
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@unreceivedogma, judging from your graphic description you must be the one enjoying ’mental masturbation’. Keep it up!
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@halcro Yes, I’ve wondering about that too. Digital manufacturing technologies are readily available, but probably still too expensive for the audio ’industry’. I’m afraid our little hobby is too insignificant to use these. Unfortunately industrial powerhouses like Sony aren’t bothered by phono cartridges anymore. Too bad I guess. Ortofon does use modern 3D laser printing technology for the manufacture of their titanium ’body parts’. They would probably be the only company dedicated to phono catridges with the resources to do something similar with a cantilever/stylus.
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@mijostyn, I’m no expert in boxing, but if I’m not mistaken the heavier individual usually wins. This seems to be an argument pro higher mass, which runs contrary to your - uh - point.
It seems the less effective mass the better, which is probably the reason diamond cantilevers are kept very short to compensate its higher intrinsic mass, apart from possible cost considerations. But then again, all else equal the joint pipe then needs to be longer, which also adds weight. Some manufacturers of boron cantilevers use what appears to be a metal piece between it and the stylus (Transfiguration Proteus for example), which presumably adds weight as well. I think these are sourced from Ogura. I’ve also seen ruby and sapphire cantilevers made by Namiki that don’t have blobs of glue either. Instead you see a dark vertical shading of what appears to be hole in the mineral in which the stylus is slotted, probably with the help of a little adhesive.
Apart from the one piece assembly from Sony, the nicest solution I’ve seen is on Entré cartridges of the 80’s. Their EC-30 integrated headshell model has a fairly long boron cantilever with a V-shaped incision at the very end, in which a very small stylus tip nearly fits with one side of the stylus visible from the front view. There are no visible remnants of glue, so the bonding appears quite seamless. The same method is applied to the otherwise identical Soltair II, which has a very short oblique cut diamond (or perhaps sapphire, there's no information available) cantilever. I’ve never seen this construction anywhere else and don’t know who made them. I’ve even had my Japanese contact ask information from Matsudaira San at MSL, who designed these cartridges. Unfortunately it remains an unanswered question.
So there are many methods, each with their own merits and they all seem to work very well. As mentioned so many times, it’s the mixing and matching of all the parts that creates the final result. It seems that combinations are virtually endless and to me hearing these different results has become one of the most fascinating aspect of this hobby.
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Dear Halcro, as you know we agree on many things, but a 'ban on boron'? I haven't heard any of the ones you mention, but this is rather too categorical. Van den Hul Colibri, Transfiguration Orpheus & Proteus and Ortofon A95 all have boron cantilevers and they're some of the best cartridges I ever heard. Be careful what you (don't) wish for....
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