Which component to upgrade to improve bass control?

@tvad:

This review of the Coda makes it sound very appealing, especially given that reviewer prefer warmer sounding gear, as I do. 

http://v2.stereotimes.com/post/coda-csib-integrated-by-richard-willie/

@duckworp:

1) Yes, I could. It quickly gets expensive shipping back and forth across the country, though. I went through this routine when shopping for a high-end acoustic guitar last spring and guitars weigh a lot less than a pair of speakers!  

2) I've of course heard of the DSpeaker units but have no idea how effective they might be. I could talk to Walter. 

My impression is that amps with built-in DSP are generally more of the home theater variety. I've read that built-in DSP can have unintended  detrimental "side-effects" on SQ. 

3) I had  Schiit Loki and was unable to manage the sloppy bass. I'm not confident an amp with tone controls would be any more successful. 

@kijanki:

Your comments are way over my head but thanks for contributing. 

@tvad:

I checked out the Sistrums and am not sure how they'd work with stand-mounts. 

And... I've experimented with speaker distance from back wall. Moving them as far forward as I can (37"), I note no improvement. 

Hi tvad-- always nice to hear from you!

I appreciate you offering advice based upon your experience with Silverlines.

As it happens, I live in the town where Pass Labs used to be located but have only heard Pass separates driving larger Zu speakers-- not the integrated-- and never with Silverlines. What I heard sound great, though.

I could just afford a used INT-25.
I could swing a used Coda more easily.  

I've long been a stubborn advocate of not buying anything I can't return, so I'd have to decide whether I'm willing to take a risk in this regard or not. 

Is the Coda similarly smooth- sounding to the Pass gear ? 

@hilde45:

Thanks for your input. 

I did try port stuffing and didn't notice much difference. And as noted above, moving speakers from original location 27" away from wall to 37" didn't seem to have any effect, either. 

I could be mistaken but I think I've read that Alan Yun recommends biwiring. The thing is, my speaker cables are long-- 20 feet. 

 What about swapping out the speakers for a front-ported design?
I know Salk offers several such models. 

I guess I'd better state that I'm aware that what I'm after may simply not be possible by upgrading a component. That's fine. Just thought I'd ask, as I'm no expert. 

Thanks for all the comments.

@tvad:
The review comparing Pass Labs to Coda would incline me more towards Coda. Needless to say, reviews are no guarantee of satisfaction! Thanks for clarifying Sistrum possibilities. 

@fuzztone:
Please re-read original post re: room treatment. 

@yogiboy:
Yeah-- you may unfortunately be right. I may just have to live with what I've got until we move and I can set up a dedicated room for audio.  It's a bit frustrating that my $400 Schiit Jotunheim headphone amp and even cheaper Grado 225's deliver a more satisfying bass presentation than  the main system.  Perhaps it would make the most sense to invest in a nice pair of Focals and take my pleasure where I can find it. 

@tomic601:
Well, monos ain't gonna happen. Will look into Autoformer. 

@oldhvymech:

Don't have subs. 

Sand-filled Target stands sit on heavy cement pavers on wood floor with Herbies Gliders between bottom plates of stands and pavers. 

My system is very-less-than-ideally-located in livingroom. I put the pavers under the stands to lift drivers above furniture. 

The Gliders were a big improvement over the spikes that came with the stands. 

@tomic601:

Thanks for your generous offer. Unfortunately, there's not a practical option for relocating amp at present.  

@tvad:

Yes-- I found ads for both the Pass and the Coda for sale, used. As it happens, Coda is  located an hour's drive from me, in Sacramento. 

@newbee:

Listening chair is positioned 4 feet from back wall, which is actually a half-height wall, separating living room from dining room. 

@gosta:

Thanks. Yes-- I'm beginning to suspect DSP may be the only solution, in my case. 

@pacoinmass: 

What you suggest sounds fairly technical but I could possibly get a friend to help. 

@ elliottbnewcombjr:

No-- I haven't spoken with Alun Yun. I've had the speakers for about 15 years, now. 

@tvad:

He might but as I know I can't afford to buy a new amp from him, it doesn't seem quite ethical to ask him. I once explained up front to a speaker manufacturer that I couldn't afford to buy new but would like to hear his speaker. He agreed and then after I'd been there and gone, sent me an angry e-mail castigating me for wasting his time!  

@hilde45:

Ok-- good to know port location is not necessarily a fix. As Audiogon doesn't allow attachments, how would I post a diagram? Please explain.
I have a friend who's a dealer and might have the necessary equipment for measuring my room for nodes. I'll contact him. 

@dekay:

No-- that was kind of embarrassing -- I'd forgotten I'd placed some old Symposium shelves under my monitors. As I already had Herbies Gliders under the stands, I suspect it was to much of a good thing-- too much damping. 

@jrbirdman333:

Thanks for the suggestion. The problem is, due to the price, I'd have to buy the Hegel used and unless I could get it from The Music Room, I wouldn't be able to buy it with a return option. I typically only buy components I can demo.  

@audioman58:

Please see my response to jrbirdman333, above. 

@sandthemall:

Thanks. I will apply your suggestions to the extent that I can. 

BTW, I have noticed no worsening of SQ when cranking volume. In fact, it's easy to get carried away and end up listening louder than is healthy for my ears. And, the sound is definitely not too bright. The bass is sloppy, though. 

@aubreybobb:

Thanks for the suggestion. Unless someone sells these with a return option, I wouldn't try them, though. I don't have $ to burn. 

@cakyol:

Please see #3 under response to duckworp. 

@hilde45:

"The proposal by hshifi — a better preamp, DAC, plus power conditioner, power cords, and a ground master — sound like throwing quite a lot of money at a much more fundamental problem. I'd bet an amount equal to their full cost that they would not help the issues you describe"

I agree! 

@gormdane:

Thanks for your input. Unfortunately, I don't have much flexability in shifting my listening chair laterally. I have tried moving chair forwards and back and have not noticed any difference. I guess that suggests my listening chair is in a bad location, period. 

 @hshifi:

Not sure why you say "besides the obvious of a better pre-amp and DAC". Care to share your rationale for these assertions?  Noone lese in this thread has suggested a different DAC would offer more controlled bass. 

I've tried power conditioning and it had zero effect. I live in a rural area  where each home has its own transformer. 

Of course, I meant to type "sufficiently neutral"...

@elliotnewcombjr:

Silverline is within driving distance, so I could take them over to Alan and have him listen to them. Hadn't thought of that option. 

I bought the speakers used from a guy who'd tried them in his recording studio for just a few hours and decided they weren't sufficiently neuitral for his purposes. 

@tvad:

Yes-- Coda is in Sac. Sorry for the lack of clarity!

I did contact the seller of the used Coda, asking about bass and he responded as follows: 

"I've owned Hegel H390, Benchmark ABH2, Pass Labs XA25, First Watt SIT-3 & Pass XA30.8 & the Coda bests them all.It sounds more clearer & high res than all of them, with better transients & layering. Better grip & slam". 

@tvad:

"Perhaps you could take your speakers to him to be checked out, and while you’re there he could hook them up in his system, where he might still have Pass Labs. Worth a call"

Good idea!  

@sgreg:

Thanks.

I tried a PSA power conditioner/regenerator and it had no discernible effect.

I upgraded power cords  a long time ago. 

. . or can be, at least. 

@sandthemall:

"I think it's most logical to get the room dialed in first"

I can't argue with that-- it makes perfect sense.

Implementing it, however, is another story. 

@tvad:

He went on to say:  "The XA30.8 was the closest to the Coda, as it sounded as wide, forward & musical as the Coda, but more rounded & definitely warmer". 

The above makes me wonder whether the Coda would be warm enough for my tastes. 

@assetmgrsc:

Thanks. Unfortunately, I have very little room/flexibility for positioning for a sub. 

I could, however, upgrade my integrated. 

@eriksquires:

I'm not opposed to such an approach but do all the miniDSP units include a DAC?  I very much doubt the DAC in a $250 device is going to equal my Aqua. 

A friend who's a dealer will come over next week to help me evaluate the effect of the room and of speaker placement. 

@invalid:

That looks interesting. I'd prefer to avoid tubes, though. 

@invalid:

My mistake-- you are right!  

@millercarbon:

Thanks for weighing in, MC. 

I don't have any fundamental objection to subs. As mentioned, a friend who's a dealer is coming over next week to help me locate bass nodes. Perhaps he can also point out possible locations for subs. I've looked at diagrams for sub placement in the past and none of them resemble my room. They all seem to assume a largely empty room with nothing occupying the corners. I don't know about you but I haven't come across too many living rooms with that sort of arrangement.

As for springs, I can see how that works fine for floorstanders but my monitors sit atop target stands that are fitted with Herbie's Gliders which in turn perch on thick cement pavers. How/where would springs fit into this scenario, pray tell? ? ? 

@tvad:

"You might call Peter and ask him about using Symposium platforms between your speakers and target stands"

In fact, I did order them but Peter could not tell me when they would be available. As it happened, I had an old Symposium shelf lying around so I had it cut in half and placed the resulting slabs under the monitors. I thought they helped at first but the system started sounding excessively dark to me and I ended up pulling them out. All I can deduce is that it was "too much of a good thing" in conjunction with the Herbie's footers under the speaker stands. I should try the shelves without the Herbie's, see how that sounds. 

@eriksquires:

"Some miniDSP units are pure digital. No analog. Another alternative is to use something like Roon, which has DSP built in".

If a Swarm won't fit, some sort of DSP may be my only recourse. I'm not technically inclined by nature so I don't exactly relish the prospect of diving into the world of DSP but neither do I enjoy sloppy bass. Perhaps you can explain why some DSP units include a DAC. What's the point? 

@millercarbon:

"One of the beautiful things about multiple subs, the more subs the less the room matters, and the less it matters where in the room the subs go...By the time you get to four it hardly matters where you put them the bass will be so good you won't believe it. ".

This is indeed encouraging. I don't know about fitting four Swarm cabinets into our curent living room but at the very least, I'll be able to employ them in our next abode. It was actually my wife who asserted I should have a dedicated audio room, at that point. I'd be very foolish to argue with my wife!  

"Springs go under the speaker. What the speaker is on hardly matters".

Thanks for the clarification.-- I thought the springs needed to be in contact with the floor. What happens during an earthquake, I wonder? The piano black finish on the Silverlines is fairly slick. 

@gosta:

"Saying no to dsp today is like saying no to cd's yesterday. It won't stop it's the future and gets better for each day. Just get on with it :-)"

Got it. Thanks. 

@optimize:

Thanks for the technical explanation. 

@denverfred:

I live in a single family home in a rural area where each house has its own transformer. I've tried power conditioning and noticed no improvement. I do have upgraded power cables. I suppose I could upgrade them even further. 


Otherwise, this morning I toed speakers in considerably more than I'd tried before (approx 26 degrees total) and this definitely helped. 

@kymanor1:

What amp would you suggest?

I've spoken to Jeff Wells who said the bass performance of my majestic could be improved via upgrades. 

@Hilde456:

Thanks for the suggestion. I see there are currently 4 for sale used for $1750.  Even if I could find another 4 for the same price, that's $3500. I can see putting that sum towards a new amp but am (justifiably or not) resistant to spending that kind of money on footers. 

@tvad:

"You might call Peter and ask him about using Symposium platforms between your speakers and target stands"

As I mentioned, Peter stipulates there should be no spike or other footer under speaker stands when using Symposium shelves under monitors. I finally got around to removing the Herbie's Gliders from under my stands this afternoon and put the shelves back under the Silverlines. Better!  I can actually follow bass-lines, now and there's an overall improvement in the sense of ease or flow of music. 

This may be enough to get me through until we move from this house and I'm able to have a dedicated, Swarm-equipped, audio room. We'll see. 

@jas:

My plugs are all Furutech

@tony1954:

Thanks. Millercarbon suggested the same and it definitely seems the best way to go. We plan on moving in about 5 years and at that point, I'll have  a room dedicated to audio that WILL include a Swarm. For now, however, with my system in our living room, I can see no way to fit all those cabinets into the room. I don't have room for the required amp, either. 

Having Wells Audio upgrade my Majestic integrated or replacing it with another integrated is a more do-able possibility, for the present. 

@geof3:

I'm not opposed to dsp but when I read descriptions of using it, it sounds a bit intimidating. 

@bigaud:

Thanks for your input. The speaker cables are double runs, for whatever that's worth. Not sure whether that compensates for resistance. 

 

@gp4jesus:

Speaker cables are not biwired but are double runs.

@lemonhaze:

My room is long rectangle, not square. In fact, I've already decided that multiple subs will indeed be my approach in our next house, where/when I can have a dedicated room for audio. Due to arrangement of furniture and other aspects of decor, it's just not practical currently. Nor are panels, traps, etc. 

@tvad:

I'd assumed pods would be located under stands but millercarbon clarified for me that they should go directly under monitors. Here in the Sierra foothills, we have earthquakes from time to time and I simply don't trust that my Silverlines would remain perched atop the pods, given a good shaking. At this point, I cannot afford to replace them, so I prefer to play it safe. 

@pinthrift:

I tried isoacoustic footers under components and they didn't seem to do much at all but using them as the "filling", sandwiched between monitors and subs is not one I've encountered before. 

My living room is good-sized and is separated by diningroom by a half-height wall. Both have 10 foot ceilings-- it's not a small space, by any stretch. 

Well, we must all bow to practicality.

Given the fires in CA, the idea of moving back east is very appealing.

We lived in Maine for 9 years and loved it. 

We started looking at real estate listings and talked about having a house built back there but at a certain point were compelled to face the truth  that we've reached a point where age-related considerations render such a move impractical-- perhaps even foolhardy. If one of us were to become seriosuly ill, living on the opposite coast from all family members would not be an asset.