Some great replies so far. Particularly interesting points about the trends of the new generation. Personally, I very much hope that HEA will NOT be going the way that akaim8 states. OTOH, the one thing that does strike me as a MAJOR problem for HEA is the "one man" aspect of the hobby. In one of the Absolute Sound issues, I read an excellent article by Gary Koh relating to this issue. I am certain that this aspect could be one of the main contributing factors to the potential demise of HEA. Question is how do we change this?? |
Great post trelja. I still question the reason behind the more recent trend in the market...the one that has seemingly majorly softened the market for used HEA. Trying to sell some of the gear on portals like the one that I am typing on, has---at least according to several of my a’phile friends-- resulted in almost having to give away gear! OTOH, we are constantly hearing of the new HE product that is pushing the asking price into the stratosphere. Presumably there is a market for these pieces...and a big enough market that it makes sense to continue to push the prices upwards and upwards.
Looking at the new WAMM speaker or the new D’Ag Relentless amps would seem to bolster this trend. Not sure how many of the buyers can truly afford this gear, but there must be enough for the manufacturer’s to feel safe enough to produce it.
Hate to think of the potential loss of $$ once it gets to the used market, LOL. |
Interesting post craigl59. I think Alon may have hit on a winning strategy. Even if he sells half of that number, then we are looking at close to $5M in sales. OTOH, I'm certain that there are a lot of manufacturer's and dealers who would prefer to sell just one piece at $5M! They probably think, and maybe rightly so, that it is just as easy or even easier, to find that one guy who will fork over $5M, than to have to sell 500 pieces...never mind 1000! |
The move away from HEA to Home Theater is nothing new....so I don't believe this explains the current market in the used HEA area. The Home Theater market is no easy street either...several brick and mortar companies that I know who moved away from HEA to Home Theater, subsequently went under. |
It certainly seems that the “rediscovery” of vinyl has helped with bringing the younger crowd into the hobby. The physical media is a great way for young people to discover music and to alert them to the pleasures of collecting music. The next big return will be the CD.
IMO, the ability to stream is a great way to listen to a large variety of music, but it has too much of a “throw away” aspect that will ultimately loose the excitement of opening that new record...or even CD.
While this is an interesting point, it does not seem to have much to do with the original topic that I posted, at least IMO. |
jimman2, I agree with you that pricing is always a factor. OTOH, I have been told by several a’phile friends who have posted gear for sale that the ’only’ way to sell these days, is to basically ’give away’ stuff. Not sure what they consider a ’give away’ price to be, but I do know that the overall market for used gear is definitely a lot less than even a year or so ago.
What is driving this market aspect is the basic topic of my OP.
Like you say, Millenniums are strong force in the market, the ’Boomer’s’ like myself are diminishing. Yet, looking at the new gear HEA market, pricing is steadily reaching higher and higher plateaus! IMHO, this means a much greater exposure for greater loss when one needs to liquidate this gear.
Here’s another thought....one that I don’t think has yet been expounded. In the auto business, it is known that the Bentley’s, MB’s, Rolls. and other ’luxury’ exotica are subject to the greatest devaluation once they come to the used market. Not because they are any less worthy, but simply because those that can afford them are not interested in buying used! Could this be a factor in this hobby too...at this point??? |
@tutetibiimperes. That’s all good and correct, question is whether this also applies to HEA? Since a lot of the new gear is edging towards pricing that makes most of these new luxury cars pale in comparison! |
@clarinetmonster2 That is interesting. Not sure how you know this, but I have heard that the Magico A3 is currently back-ordered with a waiting list!
|
@supertweak. Yours is the best post on this thread (and there are some great posts on this thread) that I have read and in my opinion, by a country mile!
To say that I couldn’t agree with you more would be an understatement!
I think you just summed up the whole problem with the HEA hobby and the main reason why most youngsters are not buying into it...well done!!
Doesn’t explain the recent lowering of activity on the used market, ( at least I suspect not),but it sure explains the overall lack of interest in the younger gen.
+1000 on your post. |
While it may appear that the $10k/pair price point is ‘hot’ right now, somehow I doubt that holds true for used gear!
|
@ghasley
Not sure where you are looking, but if it is on this site, there appears to be plenty of selection and 'inventory' available.
While I totally agree with you that pricing is the number 1 determinant of how quickly something is going to sell, I also know that several of my fiends who have tried to sell their gear recently on this site and the few others that are utilized for used sales, have experienced a long drawn out process with little success. OTOH, was their price too high...probably. One guy did give his speaker cables away ( his comment, not mine) for 10% of the retail price that he paid less than a year before!
( Perhaps he paid way too much to begin with....that would be my thought; although he adamantly disputes that). |
@ghasley
Last time I looked, this is a public forum. How smart would it really be to name names?
To say that the cables that my a’phile friend sold for a fraction of the list price weren’t very well thought of may be true...or may not be. Question is whether your “expected “ returns on your used cables could really be realized. Like others have pointed out on this thread, there are many sellers who are deluding themselves with their asking prices. Are you one of those or not...the market that we all find ourselves in at this point will dictate that, not your hyperthetical musings. Sounds like a very good thing that you are happy with your gear, for the moment. |
@ghasley
Everything you said in your above post makes some sense. However, I personally have NEVER stated that HEA is dead. The industry is certainly changing and is certainly contracting, at least in comparison to what it was in its hey day. ( Probably in the late 80's or early 90's)
The fact is that there are certainly some VERY overpriced pieces for sale on all of these web sites...and in the B&M outlets. OTOH, I also notice that if something is considered well priced, its marketing time is usually fairly short. The lower priced items definitely have a larger market demographic than the higher priced items ( generally regardless of the discount from new pricing).
My OP was asking what happened to the USED high end market and ....recently. |
@ghasley
All of your points do little to address the fact that the change in the used HEA market has occurred recently. What accounts for this broad change? Why has the free market changed so drastically in such a short period?
The old idea of 'flipping' gear now seems to be a whole lot more difficult.
OTOH, I would certainly keep that Motorola Bag phone you mention...soon it will be worth some serious $$ to a collector, LOL.
|
@grannyring
You bring up a good point about most of the recordings. While it is true that most of the recordings are in many ways lacking, I would think there are enough that the hobby should have enough great content for some extended period. However, I certainly agree that the vast majority of recordings are truly sub par....unable to truly capture the sound of a cymbal, or a snare brush, or a piano etc., This has undoubtedly lead to many listeners in the hobby blaming the gear and losing interest overall.
Plus, the questionable quality control in the record industry still seems to be an ongoing factor. Pathetic in this day and age if you think about it, IMO.
|
@fstein
Maybe, except what you stated doesn't account for the 'collapse'.
|
@terpstation,
I don’t happen to believe the millennial generation is not interested in the sound of actual instruments. I think that millennials have a great deal of choice in which to spend their hard earned money, if...BIG IF, HEA was more affordable to them..and more of them knew of the existence of HEA, then I think we would be seeing a resurgent and growing market. Instead, it would appear that the current generation of HEA manufacturer’s have thrown their lot in with those that believe it is imperative to make a quick buck and to max profits while they can. Not saying all of the HEA manufacturer’s are going down this route, but unfortunately for the hobby, this trend does seem to be expanding!
|
Yesterday at THE show in Irvine, Calif, I had a very interesting conversation with one of the manufacturer’s who was displaying his wares. He is going to be bringing to market a great new product. We discussed his pricing strategy for this product, which I believe will be SOTA in its division. Essentially after I had asked him if he was going to price this piece at an even higher price than the current competing SOTA piece ( which is very well reviewed--but at a price that makes most people pale in shock) to meet his far east dealers requirement (higher is better...through the roof is best!); he replied...absolutely NOT! Why not, I asked him. To which he replied, because this would lead to the rest of the world having sticker shock and his market would severely suffer in those other areas. Smart guy, IMO.
|
