I'm a believer. I think that the great advantage of subs is room EQ in the bass via a(n external or built-in) subcontroller with DRC. With this arrangement, the main signal remains free of digital processing (might not be critical, but sure feels good) and the generally crappy in-room bass response can be addressed with a x-over point that is still low enough (
The extended deep bass response from good subs is just gravy.
Just MHO
Marty |
Mlsstl,
I agree. I do use subs, but they are a PITA to get set-up properly. However, you don't need a professional to do it - provided you have a taste for the work.
A good DRC subcontroller (like Velodyne or SVS/Audyssey), a good active x-over (I use NHT), two (or more) good subwoofers and some elbow grease will work out fine. At the end of the day, count on app. $2500 and up, plus your hourly rate x 20 or 30 hrs. Once done, you may very well get IN-ROOM bass performance (depending on your room) that's unmatched by any non-DRC full range speaker at any price.
Not for everybody, for sure, but IMHO worth it if you're willing on the terms above. |
Mlsstl
Completely agreed. Hence, my last post started with "Mlsstl, I agree". I was only amplifying on your comments.
Subs aren't for everyone and you can !definitely! end up worse off with subs if you don't get it just right.
Marty |
Mapman's #2 appropriately addresses Lear's comment. The biggest impact of my subs - BY FAR - is the peak/dip between 70hz and 120hz. I use 2 DRC subs and bassbusters and the measured response of my sytem in this range went from +/-14db to +/- app 1.5 db. I assure you that this is audible.
As to lowest frequencies: My Rythmiks aren't particularly optimized for this range, but they still outperform any full range loudspeaker that I've heard. While Lear is right about the limited content way down there in the deepest bass - I've never measured response below 30hz on any recording I own, even though a FR sweep shows my system flat to 25hz - there is still a real audible impact on deepest bass. An oversized bass drum which has a fundemental around 50hz sounds different when the subs are on board. It's almost a spacial character in which the sound expands and "blooms" in a way that sounds much more natural than on full rangers. This might be due to the "clean up" higher in frequency, or it might be some other phenomenon.
I know that this isn't a particularly "granular" or technical analysis (and it certainly surprised me to experience it), but it does comport with the oft expressed belief that subs improve soundstage. IMHO, there really is an impact on low end info when good subs are deployed.
Bottom line: Despite the dearth of truly low end musical info, subs can significantly improve a music only 2 channel set-up. IME and IMHO.
Marty |
Jax,
I had a similar situation. First I added 2 bassbusters. This had the effect of lowering the output in the 1/2 octave above your suckout. IME, part of the suckout is real and part is actually a function of the hump that often occurs just above this frequncy and extends up to 120hz or 150hz.
With 2 subs (crossed in the mid 70hz range), you can usually find a pretty smooth level match between the subs and the now "bassbusted" response at the bottom octave of the main speakers' (crossed and rolled off) range. DRC will allow you to address the smaller issues that occur (at least in my room) around 50hz and, if you wish, tailor response down in the deepest regions.
I use:
NHT x-2 to roll off bass in my mains
Velodyne SMS-1 to provide DRC via parametric EQ and to optimize integration with mains via the VERY flexible High Cut Filter integrated into the unit.
2 12" Rythmik subwoofers
2 bassbuster knockoffs from
The whole sub-woofin' enchilada ran just under $3000 (a fair bit more than the Ohm 100s I usually employ as my main speakers), but was - IMHO - a great investment. All products are available via money-back in-home trial period, so you might want to think about checking it out.
Good Luck
Marty |
BTW, Jax,
You asked about room position and the 80hz suckout. My understanding is that this response dip is usually due to 1/4 wave cancellation and is a function of the speakers' distance from adjacent walls. Subs can be placed flush to the wall which increases the frequency of the cancellation and reduces the severity of the effect - usually making it fairly benign. So unless you're willing to put your full range speakers right against the wall, changing the speakers' placement within the room is unlikely to do the trick.
Marty |
A couple of folks have indicated that you should just improve your speakers rather than add subwoofers.
The problem is: The physics of wave propogation at low frequencies (i.e. long wavelengths) suggest that these frequencies will usually remain smoothest (minimized cancellation) when originated at, or near, the wall(s). So, unless your upgraded speakers work best in-wall/onwall/against wall, this "solution" doesn't address the issue.
As to high-end 2 channel products failing to embrace .1 (or.2 or .3), that may indeed tell you something. Just something different than has been implied here. Subwoofers definitely do not hew to the "purist" 2 channel philosophy, but that doesn't mean that the choice of a subwoofer is "wrong". Maybe the philosophy needs to be re-thought.
Marty
PS - You could always forego the sub and smooth the bass region with Digital Room Correction, but I suspect that this is a greater transgression against the 2 channel orthodoxy than even the dreaded "s word". |
Tigg,
Feel free to stop by (SoCal) and check the RTA in-room readout of a 20hz to 200hz sweep. You'll note that the system is flat to 25hz on axis at the listening chair. Could go lower, but no need for music. You'll also see that the system is +/- 2db below 125 hz - pretty much impossible IME without subs and/or DRC.
Marty
PS If you take a listen to the program material of your choice, you may not hear much below the 43hz you get on your system (very little music goes there) but you will hear the lack of the typical suckout at 80 hz (usually north of 10db) and the missing hump in the 1/2 octave above that (usually north of 10db,as well).
No offense taken at your post - just pointing out that the suggestion of upgraded speakers doesn't eliminate 1/4 wave cancellation, unless the speakers are in-wall, on wall, flush to the wall, and/or digitally corrected. |
Incidentally,
You don't want to measure the distortion in the bass on your (or any other) monitor. I'd direct you to any of the subwoofer forums, but the results might make you queasy. Suffice to say that even specialized 8" drivers tend to struggle below 50hz at volume. The large cone (12",15",18"), drivers in the better subwoofers will typically produce about 1/10th the THD of the best 8" drivers at highish SPLs <50hz.
Pre-empting any comments re: "speed" in the bass, I'd personally look to group delay measurements (which tend to correllate with damping rather than driver size), but I'll acknowledge that some feel that these don't tell the whole story. |
Tigg,
I'm pretty confident that subwoofers will produce better measurements below 150ish hz than virtually any (non-corrected) monitor or full range speaker. I'm also sure that I prefer the sound of a well executed sub/main combo to any full-range alternative that I've heard. I'm further sure that not everyone will share that opinion.
You may never embrace the subwoofer solution. I didn't mean to suggest that a subwoofer is "better", merely that it's hard to argue against the approach with numbers (AFAIK, anyway). But I'd be the first to admit that numbers aren't everything in this game.
Marty |
