you could try some of the older but updated models of the conrad Johnson line such as the premier 1&4 along with Audio Reseach model 150 these are all stereo and powerful. |
Call Kevin at VAC--ask him for his reccommendation. He'll give you the unvarnished truth. He used the THIEL 3.6, a very difficult load, in some design work a few years ago.
That, plus after talking to him, likely you'll have a new, very knowledgable friend in the audio industry--who happens to make some of the finest gear on the planet.
Larry |
no tube on Thiel no bueno
Bryston on Thiel muey bueno
Ole |
Dear Zxzzorro: That a tube amplifier like the Vac can " hadle " the Thiels can't means in any way that that amplifier or IMHO any other tube amp really could honored your Thiel's quality performance level it has due to its electrical impedance curve, phase angle and low sensitivity.
If you want to change the electronics you own INHO with that speakers the best you can do is to looka good SS design amplifier with at least 200 watts at 8 Ohms and with a low output impedance as: 0.05 Ohms.
Matching the speakers electrical impedance curve with the amplifier output impedance IMHO is a must to have if any one aspire first rate quality performance with low low colorations. This matching speaker/amplifier subject is extremely important but we audiophiles don't take in count because we have a misunderstood about ( low knowledge. ) and because no one out there and inside the AHEE has interest to fully disclose it.
If the speaker/amplifier has a mistmatch on the electrical impedance what you achieve is only a colored, inaccurate and degraded quality performance level.
So what are your targets about? , any tube amp can makes " sound/noise " with those speakers but not any tube amps could be a good match. I think you have a lot of great SS options for those speakers where you can attain top quality performance level.
If I remember the ST reviewer use with those Thiels VAC, VTL, Lamm, Krell and ML ampliifers and at the end he prefered the ML's over not only the Krell but the other tube ones. But even if the reviewer was biased in anyway that does not change the Thiel's needs for a low output impedance amplifier that no tube design could give you.
Of course that this is only an opinion and the good one is the one from you.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Hello Raul,
I agree with you that some Thiels could be be amplified by good tubes and with good results too .. but not all the Thiels.
I own the Thiel CS 2.4 and due to a deep (2.7 ohms) in a critical area it's really difficult for a tube amp to drive.
In fact the CS 2.4 needs a really good solid state, but one with lotsa current (amperes)
For this reason I bought a pair Parasound Halo JC1's and these are perfect to feed my 2.4 without to care about any deep.
Now I'm in heaven .. if listening a pair Thiel CS 2.4 can be considered heavenly.
Previous owner of my CS 2.4 owner used two Audio Research Classic 120 (tube amps) , but he preferred to sell Thiels while to change amps.
My cent!
|
If I were to keep the Levinson 332 amp and elect just to replace the Levinson 38 preamp with a tube preamp, what would be the best alternatives with an $8000 budget limit? is this an type of upgrade worth such an expense? |
If you have a very deep pocket then go for the 220watts otl by Berning. |
Dear Audpulse: Are you really recommending an OTL amplifier design for those Thiel's?, if yes then IMHO you have no single idea of what means matching speaker electrical impedance curve with an amplifier output impedance and obviously you don't have idea why that speaker/amplifier impedance matching is a must to have.
On this subject tube OTL amplifier design is the worst of the worst choice for those speakers, please read about Ohm Law before give that kind of advise.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
Raul,are you familiar with the Berning 220 watts otl ? I do not need to read Ohms Law. The same kind of expression you showed is what others have showed when I mention the Berning otl. Go read the design specs. on the otl. This otl is not like the conventional otl you see out there. After that, seek out the amp and have a listen. There is no speaker out there that this otl will not drive with ease. |
Dear Audpulse: David Berning is a designer from what I have great respect, IMHO he and Ralph ( Atmasphere ) are the ones that really bring the tube technology to a different league understanding the tube technology " problems " and though their designs solving many of those " problems ".
Even that and as good are the Berning items the trouble with the Thiel 7's is its electrical impedance curve that needs a very low amplifier output impedance to handle " seamless " in favor of quality performance.
These are the output impedance specs on the today top of the line amplifier Quadrature ZH270 that for a tube and OTL design is really good ( btw, Ralph use the OTL " road " on amplifiers. ):
" Typical output impedance (measured at 1 amp, 60 Hz): 0.8 ohms, NORM feedback; 2 ohms, MED feedback; 5 ohms, LOW feedback. "
IMHO it is not enough, those impedance values are higher that what Thiel's are asking for.
Maybe you could think that 0.8 ohms is a good one but even this does not made a good match and in this amplifier design you " pay " a fee because for you can get 0.8 ohm the feedback goes at 12db in that top of the line amplifier.
I'm still tink that you need for those speakers at least: 0.1 ohm in amplifier output impedance.
Now, you can choose whatever you want and this depend of what you are looking for, I almost look for excellence and this kind of level always needs a very carefully decisions on audio items.
Regards and enjoy the music,
raul. |
Raul once again I hear you and respect the points you are making. Most amp designers cheat on their specs. If I mention a very well respected German SS amp,you will agree with me that it is a match for the speaker. Please do not ask me to mention that German SS amp. But 3 years ago at RMAF, there was a small demo between the SS amp and the Berning otl with a very difficult German speaker. Everybody at the demo were shocked how the otl easily handle the speaker better than the SS.
Today the one SS that I have respect for is the KARAN but unfortunately it is not very popular in this country. Forget the paper specs. on the Berning but go have a listen please and you will rethink. Understand that the Berning is not a true pure otl like the Atmasphere. It is otl on stereoids. Sometimes in audio,we have to look seriously at designers that think outside of the envelope. To me the Berning otl and I mean the 220 watts is like no otl today e.g it does not get crazily hot like others and the tubes will last five times if not more than other otl tubes.
We can argue all we want but please do yourself a favor and listen to the amp.
Just to let you know you are my mentor on the topic "Who Needs A MC When There Is MM". You are the reason why my knowledge of cartridges have improved to date.
Thanks for that. |
Dear Audpulse: Last time I heard a Berning amp was mated with MBL speakers and sounds good. I don't want that you could have a misunderstood on my opinion.
If it is true that a tube amplifier ( like the Berning. ) could make that those Thiels makes " sound " that does not means IMHO that a tube amplifier is a better match that a good SS design.
For me it is not enough that " something " sounds good it is important that sounds good and be accurate. I don't know if you understand what I mean but I can't explain in other way due to my English limitations.
Regards and enjoy the music,
Raul. |
