A friend has been an exhibitor at a Public attended HiFi show on the weekend past.
They presented a HiFi System based on their own very unique Preferences.
This system was using the Vinyl LP as the Source and was presented in a setting where 40 Hotel Rooms were fully booked to have a Non-Commercial event, where Enthusiast and Professional Systems set up for demonstrations to a ’migrant between rooms audience’ of approx’ 500 Public Attendees, of which most will be keen for the use of a HiFi System.
Sytems values are ranging between a Few Thousand ££’s into the £100 000+
The system I am referring to is a Technics SP10 MkII with owner modifications carried out the electronic function. The TT is mounted in a Panzerholz Plinth with a built from scratch own design Tonearm>Cartridge -Bespoke Rebuild of a Ortofon Kontrapunkt B.
This was interfacing downstream with a Bespoke DIY Built Balanced Head Amp>Bespoke DIY Built Balanced Phonostage> Bespoke Built DIY Balanced Pre-Amp>Bespoke Built Power Amp>Bespoke Built Speakers.
From the after-show murmuring, and that I have seen this system put in an image recorded on a Web Site that is a recognised review site, I can only assume the Journalist was sharing similar impression as to what the murmurings are sharing, this was a very good presentation and able to hold attendees in the room for extended periods.
It seems from a description given directly to me, that one well-heeled room attendee, who had made it known, that they have invested substantial monies in a Vinyl based system, was struggling to comprehend the quality on offer from the Kontrapunkt B, when used in the system being demonstrated, it was genuinely a mind boggle to them.
Is the experience able to be reciprocated if the K’b was extracted and put into the well-heeled owner’s system, who knows?
No measurements taken at this event, just numerous individuals freely roaming and assessing, with their senses guiding them, as a result of the external stimulus being encountered.
Naysayers with advance knowledge of this system, will have been quite likely to have written it off, as an exhibit not worth making time for.
From the after-show murmurings, I would suggest, both Naysayers and the Inquisitive were treated to something quite special, and very much able to produce an indelible memory.
I feel very confident it is stimulus, that is the fundamental energy produces that drives a continued interest in having a readily available access to a HiFi system. At a event like the one referred to, the exhibitors and attendees are actively seeking out a stimulant to the senses en-masse.
Measurements are one aspect and without them, there will not be HiFi as such, but in general, measurements are left to the design side, and are not sought by the mass of product users.
Is the Kontrapunkt B, the ’World's Best Cartridge’ ?
Was the Kontrapunkt B, in its modified guise, the Best Cartridge heard in an individual’s World on the day of the event, for a proportion of the attendee’s, it is a possibility this was the case, if stimulus produced was the basis for the judgement.
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What is the 'World's Best Synergy' ?
There is no doubt that very few Individuals, whether a Commercial Retailer or an Enthusiast User, are using the same System Components and Supporting Ancillaries.
Take this further and include the variations in methods used to Support Components and the Unique Environment the System is set up in, it all adds up to each individual making a commentary on value given to a Component, Ancillary, or complete System, all have a very unique interaction with it, which will be interpreted in a way that is with limitations.
The information that is usually offered and most commonly evident, is where the most valued impression made was recollected.
When considering the above, it puts in place, that in general each individual, will have developed preferences based on their Unique Encounters of a HiFi System.
The Presentation that is on offer, will be assessed against the attraction to the ed a Stimulus produced within themselves.
If a person desires to reinforce their findings by investigating the design parameters for a product that has made an impression, that is quite different to the stimulation of the senses that has been pursued through receiving a demonstration.
The rating of value given to a device, ancillary or overall system, is usually derived from the stimulation created through the listening experience only.
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The following description is supplied by a forum member, who has without their obvious endorsement, have willingly or unwillingly, recently been elevated to an Exalted Level by another, in relation to the idea, they are above the regular contributors in the Technical Expertise for the usage of a HiFi System.
What the following does demonstrate, is that the methods selected and being prompted to be discussed, are not usual selections being made for ancillaries used to connect components to produce a HiFi System.
The choices are seemingly thought of as unusual, especially as there is a selection of choices made, that are veering away from what might be considered a regular thought on such a practice.
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I read the thread on WBF via the URL provided by Mike. He started the thread in mid-2020, and I read it up to about mid-2021, but posts continue to the present. As of where I left off, Mike owned two of these expensive LFD cables. One is a phono cable terminated at one end with a DIN plug. To quote Mike on WBF, "the LFD phono is from the CS Port turntable to the EMIA silver SUT; the SUT is connected to the MM input on the CS Port phono with 18" special interconnects provided by Dave Slagle..." Mike is using the second cable, which is a conventional IC as follows: "the LFD RCA interconnects are from the CS Port phono to the dart [DarTZeel] preamp." As of where I left off, apparently Mike had acquired a second phono cable for his Saskia. (Mike, sorry to speak of you as if you in the third person. Please correct me if I've got it wrong.)
It would never have occurred to me that the road to cable Nirvana would be found by combining many strands of wire of different gauges and different shapes (ribbon AND round cross-section) and even different compositions (one strand seems to be copper sheathed in silver; the rest of the strands are pure silver).
"I don't know how to rationalize it, but I don't argue with listening tests".
I think Mike and others on WBF are just as surprised at the results.
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What is the 'World's Best Synergy' ?
The one that any individual, albeit, Professional, Enthusiast or Casually Interested, in any aspect of replaying recorded music decides is best for them.
It is easy to create preconceived perceptions and get surprises when the unusual delivers the goods.
I have been undoing such a limiting outlook for too many years, I certainly am not feeling any constraints, an open mind is present for all that is to be experienced.
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@dogberry I am wed to the Ortofon Brand as a Cartridge, even though over the past few years, I have been able to have certain Ortofon Cart's compared to a few other Brands, using the opportunities as made available to attempt to define where the separations are through the using the differing design intents and technologies.
This same experimentation through listening within the Ortofon range only, has also been given a fair amount of time allocation, to learn where there are differences to found between various Cart's from different Marketing Levels.
The Windfeld and Vienna have been the Benchmark used on a Bespoke Design Tonearm.
The Kontrapunkt B in original guise, is owned between a selection of individuals within my HiFi Group and there are redesign / rebuild variants of the K'b as well.
My experience of the K'b in use is quite regular and I have heard it on various Tonearms in various systems, as well as having it demonstrated on the same system in comparison to a selection of other Cart's.
I have learned from this that if the Arm/Cart' are correctly matched, there are still variables in the impression made from a replay.
It could be claimed that the differences in devices used within a system can be responsible for this, and I won't stand in the way of such a pattern of thought, it is one that is presented in many discussions seen.
My encounters and following assessments lead myself to a different approach of thought, I am convinced the K'b is a not too attractive Cart' when used on certain Designs for a Tonearms and can be underwhelming, even though replaying the music in a manner that can be enjoyed. The K'b is a Jekyll and Hide, as when used on another Design of Tonearm, the Design is quite capable of excelling, and becoming very attractive in use. When partnered with a Tonearm of a certain design, the K'b has proven itself to compare very favourably to much more expensive Brand family members, leaving not too much amiss in the comparative performances.
It is the experiencing of the above, that has led me to adopt the thought, where the Trinity of Ancillaries required for Vinyl LP Replay, i.e, TT>Tonearm>Cart' will be with an obvious weakness if the Tonearm is not able to allow the Cart' to perform at its optimum.
It is also the experiencing of the above, that has led me to be quite sure that my there are Downstream Devices underperforming as a result of not being sent a Signal from an optimised interface upstream.
The Redesign / Rebuilt Cart' inquired about in use, has a Boron Cantilever and FGS Styli. This has been a method used by Cadenza Black owners wiith a very good follow up report. I would also believe the technician gave the under the hood of the K'b a little bit of their special attention, even if only a thorough clean.
My K'b redesign / rebuild is a little more advanced in ideas, as it has a upgraded internal from the upper range of Ortofon, with a FSE and WRD used as well.
It also veers from materials usually selected by Ortofon, as it has a Beryllium Cantilever and Ogura Vital S+ Styli.
I have heard much of the Ortofon Family since the release of the Models from the Millenium and onwards, of which a selection has been heard in systems that are very familiar.
I have yet to hear a Ortofon with detail retrieval like the rebuilt one I am using, and am not too sure if any Ortofon Model I have listened to in a familiar set up, has shown it a clean set of heals, more like the differences detected is a different sprinkle of seasoning.
My gut feeling is that if Aucurum was the coil material on my rebuilt K'b, it would be without doubt, out there with the best.
Aucurum is my next line of investigation and I do have a rebuild designed and to be carried out on a Cadenza Black Donor Cart' for this reason.
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Absolutely Wonderful, we 'Love' what inspired, and will defend our choices made, unashamedly, with the ambient, baying in their attempts to put reputations at stake.
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DS Audio are keen to see new designs for their Generators being produced.
There is schematic information available through DS Audio to encourage third party Generators to be produced.
I recently introduced a friend, who is a long time advocate of DS Audio Cart's to a Third Party Generator, and they jumped at the opportunity.
The New Design Generator has made a very good impression and has superseded the OEM Model in use with a Grandmaster and DS003.
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Does the "World's Best Cartridge" the term adopted by the OP, and the OP's references to their other experiences of substantially expensive Cartridges.
Suggest that in their assessment the Cartridges that are seen to be coming in $10/£12 - $25/£30 per replay, if using a 1000 Hours of user life is the guideline, are the Cartridges to be considered only as the 'World's Best'.
As most users of HIFi equipment buy in a price range they are comfortable with, most users of the Vinyl LP as a Source, would not be in a position to comment on such an item that incurs this type of cost.
I am well-Travelled in my attempts to experience new encounters in HiFi, where the creating a broader knowledge of the equipment used in a Vinyl Source has been the goal.
In relation to having experienced a TOTR Cartridge from a recognised Brand with a growing reputation for their use of Technology, I will suggest the DS Audio Grandmaster used in a System that has approx' £200 000 is the most expensive Cart' I can put a price label on.
I have heard TOTR Cart's from other Brands and know I have heard Lyra's and Transfiguration Cart's in non-owned systems.
More interestingly for myself, is that using subjective listening an assessment method, carried out on non-owned and quite different built systems. I have not discovered a Cartridge that stands out as unique and must have, even though the possibility is for some, that they would not fit into a Cartridge Budget allocated by myself.
There are other questions as well, what actually qualifies a Cartridge to be given a Tile the 'World's Best' or even the Title 'Contender to be the World's Best'.
If subjective evaluation is to be the assessment parameter, as it seems to be for the OP, definitely for myself, and I am sure multiple others with an acquired experience.
The outcome of selections is looking likely to be quite varied across contributors.
One other criterion, that would also need to be added into the assessments being made are the control measures for the consistency of the report.
Are all assessments undertaken using the same supporting ancillaries?
Which prior experiences undertaken by the assessor, would deem the assessor qualified to make their evaluations being made known to the Public, to have any credibility.
Which would be the selection of supporting ancillaries for the Cart', to be used in conjunction with, are the ones that can be agreed on, to ensure there is a fair evaluation being undertaken.
Due to the function of the Cart', environmental impact can be considerably degrading to the Cart's function. Which are the ideal environmental conditions, to be present when making an evaluation.
My experiences to date, have shown myself that the most engaging and desirable experiences that have proven to be very attractive, are when carried out in a home, where a system has been built over many years of devotion and the choices made for particular devices and their mounting, have undoubtedly been correct for the Set Up in that unique environment.
I have been fortunate to have heard Cart's with values of up to £5000 in these types of conditions and have been thoroughly impressed.
In my experiences, I could quite easily live with a Cart' experienced from these encounters.
In my limited experience, it is not too easy to see where a Three - Fivefold increase in Cart' purchase value would offer a more engaging experience and stand out to the level where it justifies the extra expense, if I am using the recollection of other attained experiences of a more expensive Cart'.
I'm leaning towards @nandric assessment of the contributions and will add that in general the human has to offer some kind of purported reasoning for a made decision, especially when associated with the action of making a purchase that is encroaching on being one that is an absolute luxurious acquisition.
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@nandric I said I leaned toward your assessment of the contributions, which was your questioning of how such offered evaluation can be attained and seen to be without contention.
My own expressed thoughts on how such an evaluation can be attained, are not my attempts to interpret your pattern of thought, your queries are valid and from a perspective that is correctly aligned to the subject.
My own queries are more from the perspective of what are the requirements of the parameters needed to be put in place to qualify the assessments offered to be Bonafide and dependable.
Price of Cartridge and Price of System used for demonstration of such Cartridge seems to be the most important factor as the guideline. Under the guise of more outlay means more for your money.
I work on the Basis that certain products are priced, not as their production as a whole is reflected in their given value, but more that the Niche Market can ask for such a Value.
My experience, that I made known, is that I have been demonstrated Cartridges of substantial Value on Systems that are of a Substantial Value but was not left with an impression based on subjective evaluation, that I was being demonstrated a contender for a 'World's Best Cartridge'.
My own account of my experiences, suggest that when a Cartridge is demonstrated in a System, and the impact of that encounter is positive, inspiring and an attractor, being seen as worthwhile for aspiring to.
Then this encounter surely puts one nearer the place, where they can claim there is a contender for their Best Cartridge Experienced.
From my end, that is what really counts, is how an encounter has impacted on a person and how they are shaped by such an encounter, at some stage their need to search for further improvement will become less important when satisfying experiences are encountered and if need be, adopted into use.
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Claims that one selection is ubiquitously correct and are the precedent are precious.
From personal experience, most discoveries of a choice made/to be made, that proves to be satisfying and have more attraction over others, are intermittent or even fortuitous.
The choices made by one, and the perceptions of the end experience, are not going to prove ubiquitous to all who choose.
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Shortly After Lockdown, I was to have Cartridge produced, which was to have PC Triple C/EX Tag Wires produced that were to bypass the Pins and Connect directly to the coils.
The Styli was to be a bespoke selection set on a Cactus Needle Cantilever.
The Body was to be Five Coat Urushi Lacquered, applied by a Japanese Military Equipment Renovator, who had been taught the application skills whilst residing in Japan.
I am still curious about how such a design will deliver.
It might prove to be the 'Best Cartridge in the World' for my purposes or not.
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I was listening to a Radio Programme the other day, where a recording was played from an Interview with a founder of the CD Technology as the World knows it.
The Interview went from the breakthrough to the Music Medium it was used for and how it compared to its predecessor the Vinyl LP.
The interviewee was biased to the core for CD 's superiority, making bold claims for how it was technically much improved over the capabilities of the Vinyl LP.
On Paper it might have been and on Paper as a medium for recording all different data it was much more versatile than the Vinyl LP.
40 Years in the debacle continues, there are still multiples, with an interest in replaying recorded music, that are not too sure of the Superiority of the CD as a Source, and who vociferously reject the notion, and remain with the tradition of using the Vinyl LP.
I wonder, if those who were at the forefront of the Vinyl LP Medium being produced, were as critical of the predecessor Shellac, and kept the putting down Shellac as a Medium for 40+ Years throughout the heyday of the Vinyl LP.
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The 'Debacle' of which Source Material works best for one individual to another is pretty much a fuel source that has been burnt.
There are small pockets of individuals, that can't let the embers burn out, the need to fan the flame and maintain some heat is a seen occurrence, especially when a Thread becomes very focused on the Vinyl LP as a Source and discussions on supporting ancillaries are at the forefront.
I have read a lot on digital replays over many years, and more recently read a lot about the options available to myself on streaming.
From recollections, I can't remember a user of a Vinyl Source, countering the discussions about the virtues of using a Vinyl LP recording, as better choice over a Digital Recording.
Using my own Set Up as a description of how the Two Recording Mediums are used, it is quite simple to Comprehend.
The mechanical designs required for replaying the Vinyl LP have been quite interesting to myself, and for nearly as long as CD has been available as a Source, I have pursued learning about the engineering that is offered with ancillaries required to be used when replaying the Vinyl LP.
I never quite adopted the same stimulus for the ancillaries required to replay CD as a Source.
Today, I run both the CD Source and the Vinyl LP Source in parity to each other, when it comes down to enjoying a replay experience.
The difference is that the ancillaries used for CD, are remaining to be unstimulating to be investigated to see where there is a mechanical improvement to be found. With Vinyl the interest still remains strong, and I am actively pursuing encounters to see what is still to be learned.
In a nutshell, I have adopted Two Mediums, where one medium that I use, has a need for supporting ancillaries that I have a secondary passion for. This as a Medium is the one that become available for mainstream use 64 Years ago in 1948. This is in use, in Parity, with a Digital Medium that become mainstream available 40 Years ago in 1982.
It is hard to see where the two such antiquated mediums, are able to attain such a competitive position toward each other, where each is contested for their superiority of usage.
Interestingly from my end, the Digital Streaming Replay method, which is relevant and off the now, and not as such, an antiquated Medium, does seem to be recognised for being a replay method that is very dependent on ancillaries that are noticeable in the impact they can have on a SQ / Presentation. Learning about the influences of these ancillaries does have a certain stimulus, more so, than CD replay in my case.
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There is affirmation from both types of Medium Users, that there is something to be contested, an analysis of the commonly seen exchanges on the CD Source vs Vinyl LP Source, there is the assertion to be seen stated that something exists.
There is a resistance seen to show conflation and merge ideas, there is seemingly refute presented and this serves as an ongoing fuel to maintain division.
The properties to be compared from each Source are intangible, the methods used for embedding recorded information, and the method required to replay the recorded material are not similar, and limitations of one vs the other are known.
Reconciling with the differences to be discovered in each and allowing oneself to adjust to the idea that both are viable as a means to produce a satisfying replay, will be key to accepting that either are quite capable, and worthwhile embracing if the choice of the Medium is wanted to be used.
In a Thread as this one, with the Specific Topic inquiring about 'What is the World's Best Cartridge' the not too commonly discussed, requirements to create optimised interfaces for a TT > Tonearm > Cartridge and the Materials and Designs that would be seen to be selected as Good > Better > Best to enable a Styli / Cantilever to be used to their optimum, would be a much more valuable area of additional discussion and information to be aired, in place of where Digital as an alternative Source Material fits in to the discussion.
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When a System is put together in a way that the devices in use are able to resolve recorded information and present it in a manner that creates a perception that an Honesty and Truth is being presented, it will be quite easy to describe the experience as having a realness to it.
The wording used to describe the believability of the 'realness', will be as varied as the wording one might use to describe how attending a Live Performance from an enjoyed Band hit home, as much of the emotion being portrayed will not only be created by the now experience, but these will also be influenced by very specific events that took place over earlier periods of time and how they impacted on each individual.
Individuals are very much controlled by their emotional state. Music Replays evoke emotion, and the impact of the evoked emotion, can be used to determine the quality of the replay. This is not the best method for judging equipment performance. It is the best method to judge why a item or selected system is the best choice for an individual.
To see a Band, Perform Live, that was a creator of selected Song at a Loved Ones Funeral, or a Special Song chosen at an Important Moment in one's Life, will have a compound effect on an attendee of an audience.
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@thekong There are much improved generators available today, that are encouraged to be produced and are being produced for DS Audio Optical Cart's.
I have heard a Top of the Range DS Audio Cart' in use, but not heard one in use with an alternative generator design as of yet.
I have encouraged a friend who owns a Grand Master to adopt one the New Design Generators, of which they now own and are using.
I will at some point get the opportunity to experience the pairing in use.
It would be great if it proved to be one more encounter, where the experience is indelible for its attraction.
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Nice description of the kinship of the Ortofon Generations.
Not to be a challenge, but I have heard the Vienna, which has a controlled but noticeable Bass Presence compared to the K'b.
I perceived the Windfeld as have an increased Tone in comparison to the Vienna, the Windfeld seemed to have underpinned the attractive Vienna.
The A90 I have heard on an unfamiliar system and had this in my mind as a Lean Racehorse, but still to my liking.
I like Ortofon, these Cart's in their Trickle-Down Technology Guises, meet my needs. The Older TOTR items are proven to myself to be very attractive too, but not being pursued, I have found my level of being contented.
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On to the next wildly debated Topic.
What is the 'World's Best Synergy' ?
How can one ancillary be instrumental in elevating another ancillary, to be seen to be better than the sum of the parts.
Again, no measurements available, the evaluations derive from the varied views on how the Stimulus of the experience shaped one's perceptions and influenced an attraction or repulsion toward the parts in use.
Again, each to their own, in relation to what is their preferences.
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once you start creating Frankenstein cartridges, by changing or modifying cantilevers, styli, coils, suspension, bodies, etc, then opinions regarding the net SQ are even more useless than otherwise, not to say that comparing OEM cartridges without respect to different tonearms, turntables, amplification, speakers, rooms, listeners, is a worthwhile pursuit, beyond expressions of love, meh-ness, or hate.
Note: Frankenstein Cart, is a term used that is usually associated with claiming the end product is usually made from parts not selected by a Manufacturer, which then produces a scenario where a product is unpredictable and unique, with only limited persons able to offer an assessment.
As a Sub Context, Frankenstein is made of multiple unrelated parts and is destructive as the result.
There are numerous Cartridges available that are produced using Trickle-Down Technology from Brands Flagship Models. Each of these Trickle-Down Models would be considered as an inferior model to the Flagship, but offer an essence of it.
It has been seen that a Brand offering a Trickle-Down Technology, where the intent is to produce a derivative version of a of a Flagship Cart', has chosen, not only to reduce the use of the sought-after technologies and design aspects, but also on certain models, include the use an Aluminium Cantilever in place of the more desirable and better performing options that are known off.
I find it hard to look at a Trickle-Down Technology Cartridge produced from this approach, as anything but a Frankenstein Cart'. The uniqueness of such a product in comparison to other options, being the offer of such a variant is available at a reduced fee to the Flagship Model, making the idea of usage more attractive to the mass of interested individuals to experience.
I have no beef with this as a Business Method, I have bought into this method myself.
Moving on, Return of a Cart' to a Manufacturer for refurbishment.
The likelihood is that the small print is to state that materials will be used that are equivalent for the work undertaken. Equivalent can be very broad in its meaning and is pretty much a statement used with the intention of assuring the Customer there will be a Cart' produced with the Companies interpretation of an acceptable function.
There is not any Guarantee for the exact Cart' that was bought as being returned.
I can't help but interpret that accepting a service under these circumstances, a Frankenstein Cart' is to be produced.
Where it differs from the above is that, not many will be able to share in its uniqueness unless this specific route for refurbishment is chosen by a large number of the Cart' Model owners.
I have no beef with using this as a method, it is one I am yet to experience, but have heard enough to know there are happy customers.
Companies are making decisions for their product that are a derivative of a Particular Design / Model of Cart'. The Companies will be making decisions to use different Materials for Bodies, Different Magnets, Cantilevers and Styli and in some cases Coils to produce a Frankenstein version of their Flagship Cart'.
Moving on, Third Party Technicians that Work on Cart's.
There are some from this field, who are with very valuable experiences and have worked for, or on behalf of Brands that many would have on a shortlist to own. From my end and in the circle of individuals I deal with regularly, there is nothing being made known that is to be concerned about, if the choice is made to offer a Cart' to a Technician that is known to carry out high quality work, it is viewed as a admirable way forward to let a trusted Third-Party Service sprinkle some of their magic dust on a Cart'.
It is no secret; I have been an advocate of the method of using a Third Party rebuild service, I find the method totally satisfactory, and know there are numerous other that are satisfied too.
To some the idea of using the Third-Party Service route, is not to be encouraged and is seen to be purported in small groups, as being the least attractive method, and the one that should not be considered.
I can't find any place where there is reconciliation on this very restrictive advice, each individual has the right to experience a Cartridge in any guise as they wish.
There is no Guarantee a alternative option is the better.
What others think does not matter one iota and should not be an influence on a decision to be made.
To have a dialogue with a Company or a Third-Party Service and have a Cart' produced in a manner that considers your made known preferences is an experience that can be had a very fair asking price if options are investigated in advance.
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Modified Cartridges are much more fitting as a Subject within this Thread, than the lengthy 'got of on a tangent' Digital / Vinyl Source discussions and is definitely much more fitting that the Ammunition Cartridge put forward.
@reimarc Is your reference to a Gyger Styli the FGS and was it used to replace the MicroRidge Styli. I know the FGS, when attached to the Thin Boron Rod on the Cadenza Black is found to be a very attractive design by those who have selected the modification during a refurb.
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When at my friend's home who has produced my Tonearm, this a system where many of the comparison / demonstrations are carried out between various Cart's brought along to be used. All comparison / demonstrations are undertaken with a db metre monitoring the listening levels to keep an accuracy and control measure for the evaluation.
Only when all is done and dusted in the comparisons, will the listeners ask to hear a replay of choice at a level they are accustomed to.
For myself at times, I have found this measure a bit like using a Headphone as a Speaker, it takes a little time to become accustomed to a level not usually selected, especially when used on an owned and very familiar Cart', but once a few tracks are played, the benefits of controlling the levels between the candidates are soon noticed.
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In relation to the reference to a db metre used.
These occurrences when arranged are purely Social Activities and used to extend a selection of individuals encounters and experiences, it is all done under the guise of Good Company, Good Food and Good Music, note Music is the least of the importance on a day like this, friends catching up is the fundamental goal.
Attendees bring along their own Vinyl LP's as part of having a range of familiar materials being presented during an assessment of items put forward to be experienced where a common interest is shared.
Individuals I know, enjoy the occasional opportunity to measure a choice made for an item in comparison to an alternative item.
Individuals are also keen to hear their donated LP for the occasion at a SPL the are quite familiar with, when not experiencing it at such a level, there can be a settlement period to adapt.
The db metre in use is not a scientific tool, it is basically a tool, to show to all attendees, the presentations are near parity in the SPL during a demonstration.
As said, ' Only when all is done and dusted in the comparisons, will the listeners ask to hear a replay of choice at a level they are accustomed to '.
There will not be any items exchanged for assessment at this stage, but a curiosity might need to be nurtured if an item that is not familiar has impressed and is wanted to be experienced in use that is in keeping with one's usual practices.
If we as a group, were all to agree to add a period to see who could supply the best comedy, I will be the first to suggest that the methodology in use is not fair, and we hook up an oscilloscope, obviously, this will need to be immediately followed by passing the Tissues to assist with the Mopping Up the Eyes Streaming Tears, as a result of the fits of laughter.
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@intactaudio I own and in the past have used a Autoformer of your design during comparisons sessions.
I found the gathering of pre knowledge of the sound level difference of components and the recording the Clockwise/Anticlockwise clicks to work as an easy method for presenting different components in a very close sound level 'to my perception' using the 1.25 db steps as a fine tune.
On occasions, guests would be party to comparisons, I have no recollection of anybody requesting the pre-selected levels needing to be tweaked.
Not at any time do I recall needing to use the other option available to myself to complete a fine tune.
1db as a description does sound like an accurate increment for my ears, my system and in my listening environment.
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@mikelavigne You are one of few who have invested substantial sums into your equipment.
It would be easy if to dislike your commentary on your experiences, if you were to attach yourself and follow certain ways of expressing yourself, as seen used by the minority of contributors, who seemingly are in collusion, in their encircling a member and bombarding them with their superfluous confrontations.
Fortunately, you have stood your own corner and been faithful to your decisions, and made it known how these are beneficial to yourself, and in certain cases have been the correct choice made for yourself.
There is nothing left for you to prove, your budget, your system, your listening environment, your reaction to the stimulus created. The intrusion of others into this, especially informing you of being wrong choices, is insulting, and I can see your affront and resulting action to depart.
Your reporting on your experiences encountered are very welcome.
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@big_greg " I try to limit my comments and opinions to things that I have actual experience with either in my system or that I’ve heard in a friend’s system. I don’t want to be part of the "noise", ".
This is solely my intent, it is also why I am very happy to meet with others, or travel to meet with others, venues such as in my home, their homes, or a pre-arranged meeting place, where a group are to attend to share in the available experiences from lined up demonstrations.
It is all done under one umbrella, which is to be a ’sociable participant’ within a small group of like-minded enthusiasts. No different to your visit to Mike’s and others you may have choose to spend time with. Where the outcome is usually always that advantages are recognised, amounting to great value. The overall outcome of the encounter, being indelible and very much worthwhile sharing with others.
By increasing my experiences with fellow enthusiasts, is indirectly a route to learn, this extends to learn much about how others are creating their own systems in their own environments.
I have on numerous occasions been left with a curve ball, from one’s approach, something new to me, be it a Brand or a DIY Build or ancillary and have been supplied ’if looking to be affordable’, another item of interest/curiosity added to the ’must’ try out on my system list.
To sense within a Thread, that a communication is present from an individual that is locked away in their own space, Smashing Down on the Keyboard, as an alienated individual. Attempting with a ’futility’ to convince an individual what is right and wrong in their choice, is from my perspective a repellent.
It is very difficult to consider accepting a content from a contributor, who is seemingly without any structured interactions with like-minded kin. A contributor that produces such an impression from my observation, is not a source of supply of information where I find myself content in the information that is being offered, there is not anything being made available that suggests creativity or offers any stimulus, it is quite the opposite.
I am on the side of the individuals who are helping this interest grow and bring into the fold new members who are to participate for the long haul and make discoveries that are very attractive to be maintained in similar ways to the one’s we all have behind and in yet to be encountered. It is not the easiest of tasks to convince somebody with a curiosity/interest in HiFi, that to invest in a System with a Vinyl LP source is a practice worth pursuing.
It is commonly seen through the content chosen to be added to a Thread, that it is very very easy to send these much-wanted visitors away for good.
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It is official for me now, the luxury of HiFi at hand, is now removed, as a result of nearly all the collection of ingredients being crated for Storage.
LP's, CD's, Cables, Valves and Ancillaries, along with boxes of buried parts are rediscovered, to be promptly buried once more, are now Packed.
Next will be the Source Devices, the Vinyl equipment requires a very delicate hand and thoughtful methods for the storage. I have also put a few Tonearms out for long term loan, to assist with some of the upcoming comparisons being arranged.
The Cart's and DAC will be kept at hand, to be used in future comparisons, and I believe a few Bake-offs are to be arranged prior to the Xmas, with CDP's, CDT > DAC's and I believe a Steamer > DAC, when undertaken at one home.
These usually are carried out on a few different systems, as past experiences show, there are surprises to be found, Synergy is useful description and when believed to be present, is a wonderful encounter.
Not always does a most impressive item of equipment on one system, deliver to the same degree of impression on another, on the odd occasion may have even been the least impressive.
How I am going to miss Trying out a new purchased music in the comfort of home and How will the Dark Nights of Winter be without a few periods set aside for replays and comparison sessions.
I will be 'Sleeping on the Sofa' in relation to HiFi and very dependent on my invites to HiFi Group activities.
Picking up on the activities of others with their equipment experiences, will at least allow myself a little continued reading and as always there will be follow up investigation if the content captures my interest.
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Cartridges are in their very nature fragile and the most careful of individuals has a user error within them, as we are fallible.
I not only know the Stories, I know individuals who are the Story, when a £4-5K cart' is exposed to the moment of lack of finesse, the sick feeling goes to the core, and then there is the repair bill to receive as the final bitter pill to swallow.
Encouraging individuals to experience items they may not be used to in any great capacity is not a bad thing, their confidence will grow through the disciplines being learned for the handling and the interaction.
Making an ease of access to extremely expensive fragile items, for those with a wanting skill set and lack of confidence around Cart's, such as the types assumed to be added to a selected itinerary of Cartridges as home trial demo' items.
Where the method to acquire is seemingly using mail order and forum support as the only guidance, might lead to 'ends in tears' stories, if a certain type of user takes a punt on a discounted Cart' as a Trial Period.
Finding an inroad to being able to offer a Cart' at a 'Trade Price' or 'Near As', is looking the safer bet, as the individual can seek out a Cart' that is off interest, get it demoed through a Professional Service, 'if available', and shortlist it for a time when they would like to commit to a purchase.
If when monies are to be spent, and they are still attracted to one of the items in an itinerary available from a Member of this forum, then all well and good, especially if the discounted price is covering a Warranty and Aftersales Support that is matching that from a Dealership. This seems to work, as the Buyer will have confidence in their decision being made, and not feel they are lumbered with something they are not really wanting if an unwanted damage happens.
Plenty of Permutations to be considered when devising such schemes.
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There is also present a Marketing Snobbery, where one has to protect the Old-Guard, by keeping the Riff-Raff out, keeping the product for the ownership of the well-heeled only.
This as a marketing strategy certainly lends itself to being attractive to a certain proportion of clientele, who pay oodles for the tailor-made service.
Seeing as the only places that these Types of Clienteles converge is at commercial ventures, or specially arranged presentations/demonstrations, it is not difficult to keep the clientele separated from the Riff-Raff, which really leaves the exclusivity through pricing as an attraction to a product.
Low Volume Turnover - High Mark Up for a Product that has a mysterious allure, that captures the interest, will be an ideal USP to win over a certain type of customer.
Imagine the little extras like having a one-to-one dialogue with a proprietor of an establishment, it can't get more intimate as an experience than that, and surely worth investing in.
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@sksos I am really liking your assessment of the MSL Gold Signature, it is a Cart' that is creeping through the undergrowth of various threads, with many who are willing to stand up and declare 'I am impressed'.
Where does your report stand out and get my attention, the TT in use is one I have looked at with growing interest and one that I am impressed with. The design intent for the build, is somewhere that I lean toward when considering a TT or Modification to a TT. Another Item of interest that has caught my attention, is that the Head Designer of Micro Seiki and the Founder of Tech Das Hideaki Nishikawa has been impressed by the Kuzma Designs, maybe only for an import to Japan reason, as Mr Nishikawa is also a CEO of a High-End Equipment Import Company. If the Kuzma can draw him in when visiting the Trade Shows in Europe, why shouldn't it draw me in as a distant observer.
The report catching my attention does not stop there, you use an all Valve Phonostage, of which I have a Bespoke Built Valve Input / Valve Output design, which is my keeper Phon', I can't foresee myself separating from it.
It seems you have experienced over the past period, approx' £20 000ish of Cartridges across Three Models, and from the Three the MSL Gold Signature has been the one that is seemly worthwhile to make old bones with.
It is this type of report that adds value to my visits to Audiogon, Thank You for this contribution.
I am at some point going to get a listen to a MSL Cart' from this level of production. Using one's words used as an assessment is totally OK to form a shortlist, but to form an individual view on a Cartridge and to fully comprehend the impression it can make needs time made available to be in front of it.
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For a certain level of Clientele, even Sake can be supplied in finest of packaging craft man produced to an ancient discipline. I'm pretty much sure the Vessel for containing the Sake, will have been produced from the Furnace of a renowned Ancient Families present day members maintaining the traditions.
It is always down to how a certain individual likes to separate themselves from a more common approach to a purchasing of a Product and how much pomp and ceremony they choose they need to attach themselves to Justify the purchase of a luxurious item.
I have seen a few descriptions offered of the MSL Signature Cart's across different forums and have only seen one that has added much rosiness and romanticism as the influencing factor of the Purchase.
I went into my Garden Shed and have seen a Saw from a Bygone era, and thought WOW!, that's impressive Craftmanship, I want to buy a Cartridge with all this Heritage and Tradition behind it. Then ending up with Titanium, Extra Super Duralumin, Super Duralumin and Boron as the Item that is the connection to the past craftmanship. That is difficult for myself to buy into.
I prefer, I have a few quid spare and bought this and for me it proved to be up my street and a good buy it was too, but that's me.
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I am fully on board with the Japanese Craftmanship in their Traditional Tool Making. I would love to spend time with a Skill that is replicating woodworking traditions that extend back a Thousand Years that have evolved into various established Traditions, that have been strictly followed for many hundreds of years, with the Tools required and Skills needed to produce this work being passed on through generations of families.
The Smithing Traditions and Skills required to produce the Steel and Tools is sharing a history that shares very similar culture as the Products produced with the Tools.
The Layered Steel required to produce the Tools, comes from Ancient Tradition, the Traditions of the Swordsmith will always come to the forefront in most discussions. These are one area of Smithing, there are disciplines for working with Steel that are highly sought, such as producing Tamahagane Steel, families are Three to Four Generations Old carrying out this discipline and there are Apprentices from these families' forges having produced these Steels as an apprentice and Smith for more than 60 years, a life's work to preserve a tradition.
I get it and I get the ritualistic disciplines to remain faithful to the preservation of the disciplines.
Where I am not getting it, is how Japanese National who has a recognised Skill for producing a product that belongs to a very modern world, who is marrying a selection of Modern Materials to assemble a very modern world product, is selected as an individual to be offering the Heritage of the Smith and Carpenter.
Ikea is a Designer of Carpentry and very modern. Ortofon is a Designer of Cartridges and share a very modern history almost the same as Ikea, but a little longer as an established Brand Name.
My Take on it, is that all Cartridges that are of Interest to the user of a Vinyl LP as a Source Material, are a Modernistic Design and dependant on modern technologies to perform to the standards that are expected. It might be an attractive idea, to bring a Tradition to the Design when considering an Aesthetic or USP, but this tradition when added certainly is not a requirement for a Cartridge to Function.
If I were to follow the Instructions in a Cabinet Makers Text Book and apply a Heritage Coating such as a Shellac Finish on to an Item of Ikea Designed and Produced furniture. I fail to see how this can not acceptably present itself as a comparison to any modern product, that coated with a Heritage Coating.
Urushi on a Cart' Body, Shellac on Ikea.
Realisation both are precision produced with a design that is attractive to many, but neither are Born from Generations of Handed Down Heritage.
If a modern product is supplied in Presentation / Storage / Transportation Box, that has very attractive features and is possibly even hand produced by a Craftsman with Heritage Skills, this does not transfer to the Modern Product contained within, the Product in the Box, only has a Heritage back to the time it appeared as marketable product.
A Cart' is a Sacrificial Part to be used, it comes with various design options and a wide range in pricing to acquire such a part. If one chooses to extend their purchasing to the upper end of the pricing scale, that is fine, as said I have interest in a Cart' from this Pricing end and want to encounter one for the experience.
I certainly won't be creating fantastical reasons as to the reason it should be acquired. It is either an attractive item in use and as a result of the impression made, become a worthwhile consideration as a Purchase, or it is not.
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The context being, the era of evolving designs such as Ikea Furniture and the Phono Cartridge Designs for the Vinyl LP at 331/3 and 45 RPM share a very similar time in history.
No matter what one does to them, in their attempts to attach the products to a desirable Heritage, there is no Heritage associated with the Design and Production of the modern world items, that spans back to the Period of History, where the Craftsmanship is revered, valued, protected and preserved.
That element of association is clever marketing, especially through a Models Naming being related to a Tradition, followed with the idea intimated of being Craftsmen Produced, or when an aesthetic is being added as a coating to a part belonging to the assembly, that is being awarded the status as a 10000-year old ancient tradition. Not one of these cleverly dropped in messages, is able to produce a Cartridge to an improved level, these are there to appeal to certain clientele and be persuasive in their content. Then there are those who actually believe the spiel.
A person was once intercepted by a TV Team and asked on a TV interview, if they were in any way influenced by the methods used for Marketing Alcohol.
The person made it known they were absolutely not under any influence.
The person was then asked what their drink of choice was, which was made known to be Guiness.
The person was then asked why they would choose to drink Guiness, to which the reply was 'it's good for you'.
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The Lark Ascending - A Musical Encounter like few others, it is Transcendental in how it can touch a person.
It does me proud when listened to on the TV, let alone the HiFi System.
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