"But many hear significant differences in all manner of parts dealing with this process. So there must be something more than your old dismissive comment. "
Ok, so can someone who hears it answer the question clearly then?
You have a 50/50 chance of being correct.....pretty good odds for high end audio.
OR maybe even 100% if it turns out that this is all a load of crap. That would be my bet.
Daredevils!!!!! |
I'd say Al's about as good a candidate as I know of to offer up technical commentary regarding audio and electronics in general on this site. HE knows what he knows as well as what he does not and consistently states so accordingly in a very unbiased manner.
Not a good idea to discount knowledge that might exceed one's own. I think we all know that none of us knows it all. Well, except for GEoffkait maybe.... |
Tbg,
Its true that not science and engineering cannot account for everything in reality. But it does a pretty decent job of accounting for the most critical factors usually.
Where would you place fuse direction on the relative scale of tweak effectiveness? What tweaks are just above and below in terms of effectiveness?
To me, one has to prioritize to focus on teh things that will add most value in any complex endeavor at any given time.
Tweaking fuse direction would be low on the list for me, one of the very last things I would spend time on, though assuming fuse is readily accessible, its a fast and easy thing to try onece one reaches that point I suppose, so it does have that going for it at minimum.
The thing with esoteric tweaks like this is there is usually not much down side to trying, as long as one knows what they are doing. So its hard to say that trying is a bad thing in that there may be little to lose. I would not invest a lot of time in this myself personally nor would I loose any sleep about not knowing which direction is "best" in that my prediction is that in most cases where things are in good working order to start, it won't matter much.
There could be value in the mere action of removing and re-inserting a fuse though in that the effects on electrical contact quality could be positive in most cases, unless something were to go wrong. |
" Credibility is hard earned and easily lost."
Quote of the year!!!!! Always true! |
"My question remains, what live sound are we talking about?"
Obviously, all occurrences of live sound are different.
However, I'd say our ears can become trained to recognize the patterns that emerge in live sound after many repeated listens/samples from a variety of occurrences. Then quality of matches between what is heard on a recording and what has been heard live prior can be assessed to some degree, and better matches identified over lesser ones.
This is basically how computers are trained to recognize patterns in the discipline called "machine learning". Raw data is analyzed for common occurring patterns, then matches to the patterns can be determined, although with some degree of uncertainty, which can vary from small to large, depending on how well things are done. Our brains and sensory systems were done pretty well and work similarly. |
We should probably all stop trying to help sort though facts
versus non facts when it comes to high end audio. So much
credibility in this area has already been lost, probably a
sinking ship.
After all, if we all just stick to facts and what is known,
others may know this as well, making audiophiles less
special and more like everyone else out there who also
happens to have an ear for music.
Damned if we do, damned if we don't it seems.
Facts and what is known is relatively boring actually.
Mythology helps keeps peoples interest I suppose, and more
importantly, helps separate them from their cash. |
"Raw data becomes cooked data once it enters your head, or at least it's refried."
Well, its probably to safe to say that biases exist to some degree in all cases with everyone.
COuld be too much salt, not enough garlic, a-typical hearing, listening to the same thing/stuff all the time, whatever.
Its all a very sophisticated yet imperfect process, for sure.
I tried a new $200 power cord on my DAC recently. I am pretty sure I hear a diffference, but it is quite subtle and hard to be 100% sure of, but I feel it was a good investment for teh $50 it ended up costing me.
Would I hear a fuse orientation change? Maybe first time at best (some of my fuses have never been touched since, well, forever), but I am skeptical about that even, and would be even more uncertain from there I suspect, therefore I will save myself the pain and uncertainty and just enjoy the good music until it stops being that and I have to figure out whats wrong now once again. |
So so I'm still waiting for someone to expand the scientific and engineering knowledge base and offer up any advise or theory to help answer the original OPs question.
If the answer is that there is no answer other than trial and error, I'm fine with that. Maybe the mysteries of HiFI tuning fuses will be answered by science someday.
Or even better, if the vendor could provide the answer, that would make it pretty easy for anyone concerned to validate it or not.
Alternatively, there is a lot to be said for the old motto "if it ain't broke, don't fix it". There is always something out there worthy of one's attention at any given time. Fuse direction probably ranks pretty low on teh grand scale of things I would wager, even when one is easily affected by "audiophilia". |
"the real question then becomes: where does one draw the line"
The answer these days is whenever GeoffKait/Machina Dynamica offers up his support.
But that's just me. |
"Rather than a believer or a skeptic, I guess you could call me a pragmatist with a technical background."
A very healthy and practical perspective for one to have in this arena I would say. |
Like most threads about fringe tweaks like fuses eventually do, this thread has now run its course repeating the same old positions with nothing new of interest.
Time to find some other dumb topic to waste time with..... |
"If you think this is Dumb, then in effect, you think high-end audio and audiophiles are dumb."
No, just wasting this much time talking about fuse directions.
Most of the rest is of more interest. Well, I gotta say with the exception of most of what Geoff likes to talk about in the interests of softening up any desperate suckers out there that might buy any of the crap he has the nerve to sell. |
Good point Al.
If you want to convince skeptics, some due diligence in testing process will go a long way, rather than just saying I hear it so its so.
Or we can just all go find something more productive to do. |
Magnetic fields is pretty basic Elecronics 101. No mysteries there, only how it relates and to what extent case by case. It usually does whenever transformers are involved.
SOme tweak-mongers would have us tweak shield to compensate for earths magnetic field even. ANd stick gadgets on our refrigerators. DOn't forget about that..... |
"Mapman, basic but ignored."
I'll agree on that and say goodnight. |
Al, that's a VERY generous analogy! :^) |
" So, it sounds like you and Al would not be interested in feng shui type ideas even if they improved the sound? Well, that's a fine howdyado. Geez, you guys really are set in your ways."
I can only speak for me, not Al.
Pick up a few follower's of your ideas and lets talk in 100 years or so.
I might even settle for a groupie or two. |
" I saw the arrows as indications that there was something going on inside the "fuses" that required a specific orientation."
Well, what do the makers say about that?
IF nothing, then we are back where we started...he said she said.
If they do, then at least there is something material to talk about. |
Well, actually, no there isn't in that which way DOES AC current flow again exactly? Both ways I think. That is why it is called alternating current. So there is no direction even in which to align anything.
So that means you can choose to try both ways and pick whichever you like best for whatever reason.
No wonder people like these things. They give you something to think about and you can NEVER be wrong!
Gotta love that.... |
"Second, there was less line noise when measured with the orientation of the fuse along current flow within the circuit.Second, there was less line noise when measured with the orientation of the fuse along current flow within the circuit."
It's alternating current folks. There IS no direction of current flow to align with.
That's the basic fallacy of directional fuses that people who want to believe choose to ignore, whatever their findings may be. So there would seem to be no way to know which direction is correct, although in this case the writer at least cites some measurements made, FWIW.
One accounting in a blog should not be taken for more than its worth, though those looking to build a case surely will.
|
"So there would seem to be no way to know which direction is correct, although in this case the writer at least cites some measurements made, FWIW."
Even worse...there IS no direction with AC current, so there CANNOT be a correct or incorrect one. |
"Mapman, how many times must you recite your mantra?"
Until someone acknowledges that there is no direction with AC current so there cannot be a right or wrong.
THis is a fact and valid point. TO ignore it shows a disregard for facts when they stand in the way of one's agenda.
That's not to say that changing direction may or may not make a difference case by case for many reasons already cited ad naseum.
Whoever wants to tread these waters based on speculation alone more power to you.
TBg, you have Machina Dynamica on your side at least, if not anything usable by the people who actually make the fuses. |
ALso, why burden people with a directional fuse and provide no useful guidance on which way to instal it in teh first place?
Why not just make it work similarly well both ways and save people the work of trying to figure it out themselves?
I can buy a good quality commercial fuse from many reputable vendors that have no directional connotations for a fraction of the cost.
Directional fuses are a bad idea, period. When I need one, I will buy a good one with the right specs that is NOT directional so as not to have to guess. |
"Is it possible the fuse is constructed in such a way that it performs better one way than the other."
That is a very good question! |
"Mapman, please just go ahead and buy any fuse that works and stop trying to muck up the discussions that other wish to have with more empirical listeners."
Tbg, my ears tell me I am an empirical listener just as yours tell you which direction the fuse sounds better.
Sorry if my views and opinions conflict with yours. Im sure it is very inconvenient. |
Geof,
How does your color based audio "Feng Shui" as it were work?
Feng Shui has been around a long time and has many followers. I'm willing to listen if you are willing to explain. |
Wolf,
I don't know much about it. Seems like an eastern form of superstition.
I do believe in the concept of Chi force though so I find anything related to that to be of interest usually. I suppose the concepts at the core of Feng Shui have wide appeal, but I do not understand how Feng Shui concepts actually work. Its on my list of things to learn more about, way ahead of teleportation tweaks and yes even fuse directionality. :^) |
I'm listening to WWOZ New Orleans on Internet Radio via my Squeezebox and main rig as I work and type. Love that station and the Big Easy music scene in general. Helps make me actively receptive to things like Feng Shui.... |
Geoff,
Specifically your response to Almarg above regarding color of magnets which I'll copy here for easy reference:
"Al, I realize this next series of comments is beyond the scope of this discussion but I'd thought I'd throw it out there anyway, perhaps to see what you think. As I think I probably mentioned somewhere along the line on this thread, I have been using magnets in audio applications for a very long time. Furthermore, I have found them to have a positive effect on the sound. But the kicker is where I am using magents. I am using them on windows, on doors, on transformers, on cell phones, on TVs, on wood book cases, on mirrors, among other things. See, I told you it was beyond the scope. Lol. Now, having said all that I should also mention that the color of the magnet is quite important and depends on the object on which it is placed. For example, for steel blue, for aluminum red, for glass green. " |
"Penn & Teller's "Bullshit" series is smart, funny, and accurate"
Unlike much of it one might find around here. |
