Vandersteen 7 mark ll or big Kef blades

you really are dense.....

I bought the stages becuase while they can sound good on certain material, I really wanted to understand how a flat panel with edge clamping stores and releases energy. I have a pretty good grip on that...there are about 2 octaves where they are magic. I bet most Apogee owners love the product even today. 

I bought the Cornwalls initially as garage rockers but liked a few things they did with VERY low power, modified the crap out of them and yet......but I know what horns sound like. they have impact and drive and i understand the colorations......

BTW I was lugging a stacked pair of LaScala around for a band PA when you were doing what in 1978 ?

Yes the big petal metallic MBL driver is a wonder driven by a REAL amplifier like an AMS-100 which makes a Krell look toylike...on certain multitrack material with honked up spatial info or a BIg symphonic peice in a VERY large room they can provide a massive soundscape and do percussion, bells, etc very well.....in spite of the filter...RIP the great engineer whominvented that steep slope... the science of how people is important....you trade away time information for frequency response.....ask the cruciak question...can I have both.....it is very hard work, but the answer is yes.......

lets see, the Bryston do have steep slopes...I really dont care about the choral group hearing image....they are spread out on the stands w performaing shell as a big reflector...I do care about getting them excited to hear near instant feedback....which they enjoy....IF i was really a true Vandersteen zealot as you say, i would replace them wuth the VLR........now that you poked me, maybe I will do that.....with a bit of luck the chorale director will cut the reflector size in half.....( it is just a cheap horn.... )

I suspect you are not a Stax dealer either....when I do lend them these....well, they GASP !!! as they should...

the Thiels, ancient as they are...are very musical....check out Jafant’s fantastic Thiel thread right here, something like 5k posts, not a lot of selling going on...I see music and Thiel lovers....ah, so good....

reread, the white paper the LS 50 is just a slightly different flavor than the esteemed 101 aka LS3/5a...oh with worse bass....

the Quad ESL63...... a 2 way with delay lines to emulate a point source......Peter Walker a real genius, not prone to buying off the shelf AMT drivers and outsourcing to China....RIP good man...

you might do well to study the 63...... I am rebuilding my  pair so I have witheld judgements...but I sold a bunch of them in the 80’s....the concentric delay lines do not fix the edge clamming, dustcover and other issues..

I actually dont believe a Vandersteen is perfect either, you flubbed the shot at the 1c
that has been replaced by the changed and improved 1ci...

since 1977 learning and improving...

and finally, the TREO tweeter is carbon fiber the midrange is trilaminate carbon fiber..woven ....coherence is not derived from the exact same material because the frequency and breakup modes changes, again.....perhaps reading and study will help you...unless you get hip with the science and the listening, you are just a baskin robbins flavor pusher....

the reality is you have a Vandydealer a few miles away and the heat of competition clouds your thinking....

my last exchange with you.....

Gee Dense Tomic nice of you to say, by the way  read all the Kef white papers you should read the one on the Kef Blade and Kef reference lines.


As per what I was doing in 1978, I was working at an audio store under the table at age 13 by the way, so while you were playing Roadie I was actually selling consumer electronics.

As per Quads, owned the Quad 63, as well as Quad US monitors, with dual Entecs, owned Quads for a total of eight years and setup a pair of modified Crosby Quads was doing that in my 20’s how old were you when you got your first high end rig?

Also in my mid 20s started working at Sound by Singer, who was one of the top audio dealers in the country with 10 sound rooms and almost every major brand of audio gear on display while at College was assistant manger at a college High Fi Store.

The Quads don’t sound anything like live music, they have restricted dyanmics, an unfocused image, and a missing top end and bass, they have fantastic midrange that is about it ever wonder why Quad ELS basically disapeared from the market?

Also loudspeaker design 101 a large surface causes diffraction, and even with Peter Walkers delay lines and creating a ripple you still have frequencies bouncing off the total surface of the radiator, hence the large and unfocused image. but hey how many high end speakers imaged with precision in the mid 80’s.

Bought my pair from KJ Leisursound in 1988 when the pound went to near parirty to the dollar.

Moved from the Quads to the Wilson Watt Puppy which sounded so much more like the sound of a live music, perfect they were not, visceral, dynamic, with a much better sense of image placement.

As per your crack on the Legacy’s AMT, they are German made Heil drivers not sourced from China, the midrange driver is silk and graphite made in Italy for Legacy, the crossovers use all top quality parts, in a very well damped cabinet, should get your facts straight.

Lastly the Treo CT uses the Balsa composite tweeter, with a tri laminate midrange driver, these are not the same materials, a carbon fiber dome will be a harder material with greater speed then a woven carbon fiber driver, woven carbon fiber is Kevlar isn’t it and woven carbon fiber has been superseeded by better materials wittness B&W newer Continum cones which are far stiffer than their earlier cones.

Lets talk midrange colorations, shall we, plastics all have a sound which is intrinsically soft. The same way that metal drivers also tend to ring but produce a sound much closer to the real instrument in terms of clarity and over tones.

Metal drivers and ceramics have been getting better and better, lighter stiffer materials push up breakup modes, and Beryillium is uniquely prized by its ability to be self damped due to its extreme stiffness and light weight.

As per coherency most high end manufactuers try where ever possible to use the exact same material for every driver as much as possible if you look at Rockport, Magico, Vivid, Kef, Paradigm.

The ear is especially sensitive in transitions between the tweeter and the midrange. the fact that according to your previous arugments all drivers have to be perfectly pistonic and the Treo CT’s midrange driver is not.

Lets just say we both have a lot of experience in this arena, you are not going to change each others minds.

And we used to sell Thiels an ancient pair of Theils are not not close, the CS 3.7 was a great speaker but would be outclassed by the much newer driver technology of the Kef Blades.

Having a Vandy dealer has nothing to do with it, we like Vandys up to a point, remember used to sell them at SBS, and know the speakers well, they were truly fantastic in the 90’s today there are speakers which sound amazing to compete with them in sleeker more WAF friendly designs.

We are very happy with our Legacy’s which are somewhat tuned sonically like the Vandys, we are also quite happy with the sound quality of the Paradigm’s and Kefs, heck we love our ATC and Quads so it isn’t that we can’t sell Vandy’s we don’t want to we have more than enough great speakers.

You should hear a set of Quad Z4 carbon fiber midrange and woofers, wed to an amazing ribbon tweeter so special.

Good night Tomic, thanks for the diatribe.

Dave and Troy

I've heard the Kef and it's a great speaker. Wonderful really. But if you have the money go with the Vandersteen 7. It's one of those if only I were a lottery winner speakers.
Pure magic.

well we certainly both worked for a living...I was no 13 year old child prodigy....I still have the MC240 and MX110 Z that showed up at our house in 1965....

we sold Wilson...and Quad, and Acoustat, and Kef, and Infinity, and Beveridge, and Vandersteen, and ADs, Gale, KEF, a line of kits w custome filters, etc....we made do with a 8 showroom Brownstone, 3 stories...for a time Pasquale Grado lived upstairs, until we converted his flat into another soundroom...

but, I went on to do other things....like run perhaps the largest advanced technology composite shops and development labs on the planet..think B2, F-22, 787...... easy stuff..

which is why I know that Kevlar is just one kind of carbon fiber....

my AMT   comment was plainly aimed at Quad, not Legacy...a brand I think is quite fine. Quad , like the new Thiel has strayed far from the garden...so to speak...I use the ESl-63 and will use them for a midrange reference, one of many...yes we worship in many tents..

now, I think I understand you associate phase with time and phase correct. The out of phase behavior we are talking about w pistonic drivers is due to breakup modes in the driver, which is different than a filter which w steep slopes shifts phase.

So cone breakup in or near the passband is 100% trash and distortion...which is why the German company developed the laser scanner - not to help Just vandersteen but to help anyone seeking the truth about just what the cone is doing....

well, I am off to pattern a Turkey shotgun....no kevlar in the stock....

A speaker that can handle peaks cleanly at 110 db from listening 12 feet away is the primary decision maker for me. Give me a good set of horns, any day. Now, this is ME. An individual, a specific type of listener. I do not expect, nor would expect, everyone of us to want the same things in a sound system. This is the BS of it all. Rather than combat the fanboy vs fanboy attitude, let us all admit that there are a vast amount of listeners, a vast amount of equipment, and...…..to each his / her own. I have been saying this forever. Music reproduction in our homes should be a fun and engaging pass time. You adults, who I do admire from your posts and readings, need to stop and realize it is adolescent and comedic to continue your bantering. Can't we all be friends ? Enjoy ! MrD.