I am going to join in the camp that says look at your placement and room setup before you replace your subs. That said, it is entirely likely that your subs are running out of output relative to your main speakers, which are capable of large dynamic swings. If you look at the output of the SVS-SB12 NSD (the prior model), you will see that its max output at 25 hz is 96.3 db, 31.5 101 db, and 40 is 104.6 db. You have a pair, but they are not co-located, so figure 3db more. https://data-bass.com/#/systems/5b11db42a201f10004e39d7a?_k=8inm1d With this in mind, it is likely if you are listening at higher levels you are running out of output. To get a set of subs that will keep up with your current speakers, much less the 4367 at full chat, you are going to have to go much larger. Whatever you get, use at least a pair, and if you have the room and money, four (distributed bass as discussed above) A few I would consider: I think you are on the correct track Seaton Sound Submersive HP, F2, or X21. Mark Seaton builds excellent subs, as well as monitors which are used by studios and high end home theater and music systems. I would take the JL off the list. Very expensive for what you get. Rythmik- F18 or FV18- Amazing clean, tight, and huge output. I love my Rythmiks, but I have a slight hesitation, as I think the Seatons may be a better match to your speakers. HSU ULS-15 MK2- Boring choice, but really great quality subs that sound good and with pair, should just have enough output. I believe that for any sub you purchase, you should be using a high quality active crossover to bass limit your mains, with a crossover between the subs and mains at about 80-100 hz. I am big believer in Richard Vandersteen’s believe that to properly integrate subwoofers, your main speakers must be linear to 1 octave below the crossover frequency, and your sub one octave above. So here, your mains meet the need, comfortably extending to 40hz. Finally, while I don’t want to send you looking at another website, you may want to post your question and systems setup over on the AVS Forum subwoofer section. Those guys are very data driven and spend about 100x as much time as people here playing with subs. They often have very good advice on sub placement and setup recommendations. Make sure you give your room size, as it is relevant to output. |
Tim,
I think you are failing to see the forest through the trees because you are so focused on obtaining the smoothest in room response for the maximum number of listening positions (what a distributed array accomplishes). In doing so, you are missing another side of the equation, the OPs issue of wanting to get a live feel in the bass range.
Lets step back a moment. In regard to the distributed array, there is no question, it provides the smoothest response over the widest listening area. The same studies that have demonstrated that time and time again, also show two subwoofers can get the same smoothness at a single listening position. So far the OP has not indicated he has listening parties.
The second part of the equation is output. Your argument is that it will be sufficient, but here it isn't. The OP is in an entirely different position than you or I, both of whom are using large Magnepans. Even 3 series Magnepans with 500+ watts per side are hard pressed to hit 102-104 db. Your swarm hits about he same in down to the 30hz range.
The OP is using a speaker that will comfortably hit 115db on peaks. He mentions live sounding bass. For a full scale orchestra, that is 105+ db. Move it to a rock show and you are talking 115db+. The OP's requirements are much more like a home theater than someone that wants to listen to string quartets.
The guys over at the AVS forums are bass nuts that are also very measurement focused. Many of them use distributed bass arrays, but not with small subs, but large Seatons, SVS, HSU, or Rythmiks. The reason, sufficient power for reference levels (which is 115db for movie soundtracks, the 105db for the mains and the +10db requirement for the sub channels). It is simply impossible to hit those levels with smaller subs.
Let's put it another way, lets do a really cool distributed array with eight subwoofers. Except in this case, we are going to use 4" drivers (there are 4" drivers that will go down to 20hz). It won't work worth a crap, as the subs won't put out more than about 75db. Even with the gain of multiple subs, you might be at 90db. Obviously this is not sufficient.
We don't know how large the OPs room is (but unless it is tiny, there is going to be little room gain). We also don't have an MLSSA for his room to see what the response looks like. We do know that with his current setup, he is not seeing more than 100db from his subs when his mains are capable of 115db, a 15db shortfall.
We also know the OP has considered a JL F113, which runs about $3,900. The OP can get smooth response AND THE OUTPUT HE IS SEEKING within that budget, but it isn't going to be with PB-1000s. With SVS, he needs to step up to the PB-3000 ($2600 a pair) or better yet the 4000 ($3400 a pair) which will get him the output, but also a 3 band parametric in each that can be used to further tune.
Or the OP can go with a Seation SubMersive HP+ and Slave (4 15" drivers in total). For $3,800 this will net him enough output to even keep up with the larger JBLs should he get them in the future. At this point the two SB1000s will be useless, but again, he can get great frequency response with two subs at a single listening position (and being the Seaton's are bipolar, they will load the room more evenly than a monopole sub, just by virture of the fact the two drivers are a couple of feet apart). |
I am still concerned about him having enough output even with the addition of two PB1000s. The PB1000s run out of steam at about 100db in the 20-30hz range. Even if you combine them with the SB1000s, depending on how loud the JBL's are turned up, the subs are still going to run out of output capability. All four, with being used in a distributed array are likely to max out in the 105db range at 20-30hz.
https://referencehometheater.com/review/svs-pb-1000-subwoofer-review/
If staying within the SVS line, I would consider spending the extra for the PB-3000s. This will get you the output that will keep up with your mains, plus 3 band parametric eqs to help with any final tweaking. . Finally, I agree it is a good idea to discuss with SVS, making sure you have your room dimensions handy. |
Tim,
I forgot to mention, you can’t respond. That way I get the last word and the OP doesn’t abandon the thread (assuming he hasn’t run for the hills already).
Cary
:) |
Tim,
We do have a pretty good idea on the OP's preference for bass levels, he has a pair of SB1000s and is not satisfied. To get a significant feeling of increased volume, he needs to pick up 10db. Adding two more SB1000s will only net him about 6db (again, because we are not co-locating). The PB-1000 a little more. Two Seaton Submerssive HPs are capable of 115+ db at 20hz without room gain. By 30 hz, we are well over 120db. We do know this will keep up with his current speakers as well as his future speakers.
Audiorusty,
You make an excellent point about the phase issues with vented subs. While a well designed vented sub can have virtually the same transient response as a well designed sealed sub, the vented has far more phase change through its range. Sealed subs are easier to integrate, especially with multiples. |
Tim,
He currently is peaking at about 100 db at low frequencies. A general rule for each identical sub added that is not colocated is 3db, so 6db total. Adding the PBs 1000 may give more than a 6db gain, but as pointed out by others, with different phasing, there could also be cancelation (keep in mind the phase shift (group delay) is entirely different for sealed v vented subs). Here we have a limited ability to compensate for this, unlike the home theater guys that adjust all their phasing and eq in the digital domain.
This brings us back to if the OP is going to do a swarm, he should use 4 identical subs. This limits us to the 4 SB 1000 and about 106 db. Also most people run their subs 4-6 db hotter than their mains. He feels the current pair are not enough, 6db more is not a substantial change. We aren’t even getting into the discussion of the high distortion levels that occur when pushing subs to their limit.
This is why I came back to the pair of Seatons. He gets the smoothed response at his listening position, but the output capability to not run out of steam. |
Tim,
Thanks for your assumptions, but they are completely wrong. It is rather ironic that you attack my position and claim that high quality music reproduction is not my goal, while you time and time again say that the quality of subs matters little, only the quantity. Keep in mind your frame of reference is that your bass is the best you have heard. That doesn't mean that there aren't much better sounding subwoofers, just that you haven't experienced them. It is akin to someone saying that a quarter pounder at McDonalds is the best burger out there and the only way to do one, when the only burgers they have ever had are from Sonic and Burger King. McDonalds may the best that person has had, but it doesn't mean they are the best.
For the record, I don't have a home theater system and never have. I did hook my TV up my stereo this year after we rearranged the room and the TV ended up between the speakers (someone gave us a 75" TV). Since I don't want movies, I think I have listened to the TV through the stereo twice, the $179 Yamaha Soundbar from Costco is what I use, as it gives great dialog clarity without blasting the sound level.
I do have a lot of experience with subwoofers and their integration. More than 30 years ago, I started building subwoofer enclosures for cars because the ones that I heard were all boomy and crap sounding. At that point, all calculations had to be run by hand using the Thiel Small parameters and a calculator.
The great thing about cars is they have a fixed cabin gain below about 50 hz with NO standing wave issues and a fast decay time.
With good drivers and a properly designed enclosure (or infinite baffle) you can get amazing, accurate, low distortion bass in a car. With cabin gain, a well designed sealed enclosure will roll off at the same rate as the gain, with perfectly flat response to below 20hz. I am not talking about the 160db SPL competition bass (which is achieved with narrowly tuned vented enclosures in the 60-70hz range), I am talking the ability to hit 115db cleanly down to 20hz. The current system in an old BMW I have does exactly this (HSU 12" driver in a 1.25ft sealed enclosure, QTC .65, mains will do about 105db).
There is something magical that happens when you have that free dynamic headroom. Most home subs suffer from dynamic compression and distortion when turned up. It starts in the 90db range below 30hz for nearly all subs, until you start getting into the big boys. For example, even the Velodyne DD18+, considered a huge, accurate sub, cannot hit more than 110db at 30hz, 105 at 20hz. Same for a Rythmik F18.
When all you have ever heard are subs that are running into dynamic compression and distortion (which is the case with almost all home subs when pushed to even 100db), they sound great, until you hear a setup that doesn't. When you hear the setup that doesn't you experience this effortless, fast, tight, bass that seems to come from blackness. It also has a dramatic effect on the sound of the mains, making them sound much cleaner.
At the end of the day, it is not about hitting huge SPL levels, it is about getting the best sound, which requires using subs that can stay clean and not run into dynamic compression. 4 10" subs can't do this in a reasonably sized room. It is why my progression of home subs has taken me from Velodyne F series, through ULD's, to HGS, and finally Rythmik. At each step, it has seemed to be amazing (and better than anything I ever heard at a dealer), but the next step revealed more.
Finally, you can rag on those guys at the AVS forums, but unlike many, they spend a lot of time correlating objective data with subjective sound to get improvements.
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clio09, For car stuff, I find simple is great. Check out CDT, Hertz, and Diamond Audio for components. For subs, Image Dynamics work well. For a car the size of a 911, an 8" will just cut it, a 10" if you can fit it. You can use speakerboxlite for free on an IOS device to model drivers in enclosures. Sealed works best in a car unless you are looking for max SPL. Regarding your setup. Given your listening levels, you are not likely to be running into compression or high distortion levels. I will caution you with using sealed subs in a home environment, you will likely need to eq to compensate for roll off in excess of room gain. BTW, loved those Acoustats, remember hearing them driven with a Hafler front end (XL-600). Now I am giving away my age. Sealed Rythmiks are an experience. The only way I can describe them is slightly dry, very clean, and great impact. In my office, I use their base L12 with a paper driver, which is slightly tighter and cleaner sounding than the HGS-12 it replaced. In my main system, I used an F15HP, which is significantly tighter and cleaner sounding than the two HGS-12s it replaced, and crushes them in output). Don’t tell Noble, but I am only using one right now in my main setup (after using two subs for a couple of decades). There is a second on the horizon, but my listening room has little in the way of standing wave issues at my listening position. This is driven in part by its large irregular shape (21 feet long, 13 feet wide for part, 19 feet in part, a ceiling that goes from 9 feet to 18 feet, and two large openings to other rooms). As a result, I have one dominate mode in the 40hz range that is easily addressed with a single band parametric eq. Two will provide a more even response, but some additional headroom (which is needed, as a certain wife has bottomed the Rythmik when in control of the volume, music, drinks and dancing). As far as setup, lots of trial and error with REW and moving the sub (subs before) around and playing with phasing, cross-over, and PEQ. I have tried a Mini DSP after the crossover and did not like the results (but it could be I am not savvy enough with the setup). When I say trial and error, I probably ran 200 sweeps before I got everything dialed in. REW is a gift compared to doing it with a CD with tones, an SPL meter and graph paper or a spreadsheet. Well worth the cost of the UMIK ($100) and the learning curve. https://www.roomeqwizard.com |
Clio09, Enjoy the 911. The 84-89 911s were special. Personally, the 964s always have held my heart. Noble100, It is obvious in your mind there is only one solution to a problem, yours. Thank goodness people like James B. Lansing, Paul Klipsch, Henry Kloss, Paul Walker, Roy Allison, and Jim Winey didn't decide that the best speakers of their day were as good as could be. For virtually every issue in life and science, there are multiple solutions, each with its own trade offs. Those that get so myopically focused as to believe there is only, or decide they already know it all, never learn and never develop further. There is no best speaker design, dynamic drivers, horns, electrostatic, ribbon, or quasi ribbon, they all have trade offs.
You can fool yourself that the only important thing with subwoofers is a smooth frequency response, regardless of output capability, transient response, room decay, phasing, and a plethora of other issues that we are still learning and defining in the setup of sound. You can also continue to believe that your 2.7s extend with any authority to 35 hz, they start to roll off in the 50hz range and will quickly slap the panels when trying to reproduce any type of deep bass. If you would high pass the 2.7s they will sound less dark and sound cleaner after being relieved of trying to handle the deep bass. Did I mention I owned a pair of 2.7s for more than a decade which were run both full range and with an active crossover? Just for shits and giggles, I ran a quick MLSSA at my listening position in my main systems this morning. There are two graphs, the one with bass flat to 20hz is my 3.5s with a single Rythmik 15, crossover set at 80hz between the two, and NO EQUALIZATION. The second with the rolloff is the 3.5s running full range. https://photos.app.goo.gl/rDxsgpnU5xVsz1UWA |
phusis,
Tapped horns are awesome, make mine a DTS-10.
I am not a big fan of 6th order enclosures, they lean towards a narrow frequency range and have to built perfectly to specification or it all falls apart. For high output with limited space, 6th order enclosures have a place. There is a reason the SPL car guys use them. I did build and use a 4th order bandbass for a car for several years, but that was when power was limited and it gave good output for the space.
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