I'm searching for a good arm for my Raven One too ..and I asked Thomas for the final price of his new 10.5 .. shesshh!! too expencive!
At that price I prefer a preowned or demo DaVinci Grandezza 12" or a new less expencive Graham Phantom or Triplanar VII
When I spoke to Thomas in April 08, he thought the arm would come in at about 6 to 7000 euros. That may have changed. I am sure it will be good, but more appropriate for an AC3 or Black Knight perhaps?
am sure the tw acustic arm is great but for the $, I would probably opt for the time proven phantom, or the triplanar arms. or a used grandezza.
I do not think anyone outside of Germany has there heard it in their setup.
Jeff from High Water should get one soon, and hearing all of TW's other products over the years with new introductions, I assume it will be another home run.
I believe this arm is priced to compete with the Graham Phantom, Tri-Planar and SME V, price point.
The pictures that I have seen are a product of top notch quality.
Speaking with Thomas of TW to get some impressions of usability, he said it will work with many different cartirdges in various weight ranges and compliances.
Isnt the TW arm a Breuer derivative?
Isnt the TW arm a Breuer derivative? - Perrew -
I don't recognize anything from the Breuer design in TW Acoustic 10.5 arm
Interesting to note that some of you have already chosen other arms over the 10.5 without even hearing it. My understanding is that Thomas has Phantom, Breur, Schroder, etc. tonearms. Am sure he has compared his own arm to these well known brands.
It is a true 10.5 inch arm w. is a bit longer than most of the arms mentioned here. It can be purchased w. adjustable VTA on the fly. All the parts are purpose built and the build quality is said to be very high. There are a few very nice unique features including an azimuth adjustment at the headshell and different counterweights supplied that can be switched for different cartridges. It uses a magnetic antiskate mechanism but has little need for antiskatee. The effective mass is 14 gms and the arm is made from anodized aluminum. The bearring housing has the same shape as the Raven plinth. Suffice it to say TW is very happy w. the sound and build quality. Another nice thing is the counterweight screws onto the back of the arm so dialing in VTF should be easy & provides for fine adjustment.
Well, unless the TW 10.5 arm's wand isn't filled with granulated platinum or at least 24k gold, I simply can't find any hint to the announced price tag in the pictures nor description. But surely TW will provide enough good reason in the upcoming tests. But it definitely is no derivate from the venerable swiss Breuer Dynamic design of the early (very early...) 1980ies. It looks fairly plain in all due respect. Well - we will see (hear ?) in due course and given the price tag it will automatically and universally greeted as one of the top tonearms of our day. No doubt about that.
Interesting to note that some of you have already chosen other arms over the 10.5 without even hearing it. My understanding is that Thomas has Phantom, Breur, Schroder, etc. tonearms. Am sure he has compared his own arm to these well known brands. (Eps)
Thomas already told me before Xmass he has compared his new creature to the arms you mentioned above and he claimed his arm is sonically far superior.
Well , I can trust him .. no reason I (or we) don't believe him.
But this isn't a good reason to practice a "wallet massage" to his customers!
Dear Eps to my house 6000 euros , like David said above , are lotsa money also for a good arm!
Telling the truth he told me much less than 6000 euros .. but even a mass of money compared to other well know and acclaimed arms price
the retail price is EUR 3990,00 incl. vta adjuster on the fly.
We do our best to make sure that the prices are the same all over the world.
Jeffrey Catalano from High Water Sound NY will have setup two 10.5 arms at the show in Jacksonville.
Dear Curio, of course TW's 10.5 is far superior sonically to all tonearms he compared it to. Seriously, would you - or anybody else - expect otherwise ? Do you expect any manufacturer to launch a new product stating: "yes, I compared it to the best of the current production and it isn't as good, but has its merits..." ...?
Every new product is the very best and ahead of any competition in the laudatio of its father (designer, productioner).
Its about the others to find out the truth and the inevitable test of time to proof the real content of any marketing claim and promotion.
In 10 years the used market price and demand of the TW 10.5 will tell the story.
I make my purchase decision based on how it sounds, not how fancy the materials are or how it looks. I have been criticized for liking 47labs because it is priced too much for the number of parts it uses. But why should I buy something with top transports and extremely expensive parts but sound lousier than the 47labs? My end is to enjoy the music not to impress how good looking my system is.
Why are other paintings more expensive than others? Do you buy a painting because the canvas and paint used are more expensive than the others? You buy a painting because it stirs something in you. Just a thought :D
And in high-end a "painting" is cheered and talked up before anybody of the prospective buyers even saw (here read: heard..) it.
Would you pay a premium price for a so far unseen painting of a painter who has never before actually made a painting just by chance that it "might stir your heart" ?
So far we can judge the TW 10.5 only by the following "facts":
It's origin (first tonearm of a company so far only associated with and manufacturing turntables). It's look (standard). It's price tag (pretty high for a very simple design). It's technical features (none of which is new).
So lets way and hear - everything else is just hollow marketing hype and till now I can't see any USP in the TW 10.5 which by any chance would justify the price tag.
What's the name of that Arm? "Good Night"?
MEIN appologies, um dieses Übersetzer-Programm zu verwenden, aber nahm ich Deutsch in der Universität vor 45 Jahren, und mein Gedächtnis hat mir im Zurückrufen coversation Deutsch gefehlt. Ich stelle diese Frage das Analogvinyl enthusists in Deutschland. Haben Musik vom neuen TW-Acustic Arm gehört? Ich habe an das Kaufen von demjenigen gedacht, aber keiner hat ein in den USA, um mir einen recomendation zu geben
Sorry, aber neine, ich habe nie gehort mit der tonarm. Ich habe die TW Akustik laufwerk im eine audio-show im Dusseldorf gehort, aber damals war die TW geraten meisten nur im Deutschland. Was ich gehort damals war schones Musik und alles was gehort zu "pretty damn good listening" plattenspieler.
Was ich gehort war aber schon. Ich habe spater mals eine Transrotor Apollon gekauft, war endlich prinzip aber fur mich optik spielt eine faktor, und, dazu mit zehr gute klang.
Ich sehe die TW mit neue tonarm als geheim audio tip fur analog fans ganze welt. Viel Gluck.
And no I am not German.
Please - if you guys need to create some online marketing help for TW's new tonearm, - for heaven's sake: do it in english
Any german attending here is at least able to produce some decent english in written form.
So certainly no need to address any request in german.
What your translation-tools do produce as "german translation" is much worse than you can possibly imagine.
And I for one am German.
If you want to get some more information on the genesis of this tonearm, you can (try to) read the discussions already hold in a german forum last year.Raven 10.5 Tonarm
Some history:Miwi - Tonarm
It is completely written in (rather idiosyncratic) German. Use bablefish or something like that to translate that website.
By the way you can judge the performance of translation engines and how they twist _your_ mother tongue.
I got some seductive pictures of the arm from TW by mail, but I haven't seen or heard it yet.
First, I'm sorry for murdering German. Pretty stupid idea on my part trying a translating program. Second, I'm not in any way trying to create buzz TW's new arm. Just got to excited (crazy) about getting additional arms for my TT and I wanted to see if there was some "in country" (German) experience with this TW arm.
Solong, you are right the photos are fantastic.
I did not see any marketing inference for the new TW tonearm. I for one do post on German audio web sites and engage others with audio discussions as you do here in the American forums. I can where Gerrym5 was going with his post and do not see any reason fro him to feel bad about it, as the new TW tonearm is readily available in Germany and not the USA right now.
I was able to see a TW turntable in a Hi-Fi show in Dusseldorf a few years ago. It looked and sounded real nice.
Are you registered with any of the German audio forums such as Analog Audio Association, Roehren-und-Hoeren or Hifi-forum.de?
Audioquestlife, well, I can see marketing inference for the new TW tonearm - and marketing is my profession....
Audio web forums are today the prime marketing platforms of most smaller high end manufacturers - and that is o.k. with me.
I would however prefer a minimum of objective and clear minded sceptic distance to a new product without any laurels yet.
And yes, I am registered with 2 of those "German audio forums". However - the comments and posts there are so low level, that I couldn't justify to my personal high esteem to participate there.
A total waste of time.
I have personally set-up alone or in team 3 TW Raven ACs.
The virtues and flaws of that particular TW turntable are well known to me.
At least as well as to his designer.
TW has bought the design of the 10.5 OEM from a german engineer to whom it was his first attempt as such and which was originally intended to serve as a kind of "inexpensive tonearm for all" on the major German forum AAA.
Kind of "Foren-Tonarm".
But you know this very well too.
Well, personally I am impressed from GerryM5 that he tries to get in contact with some Germany Audiophiles. I guess he knows that most are not able to answer in english language even when all Germans have it in school to survive outside the own border :-)
The German forums have mainly 2 attributes:
-to show who is without work/lives at Hotel Mama
- to get something cheap from a Dealer or Manufacturer, and it is pretty boring anyway.
Most forums are marketing platforms, I have no problem with that, but what amazes me for years is the fact, from the real competent Designers I never find any "comments or buddies who do him a favor" but from those who are glad that some think positive about their real world average products, they are endless.
Let's try to save the good Standard here :-)
Thank you for clarifying yourself. I know that because you are in marketing that many issues regarding how people perceive a product to those who are early adopters add relevance to purchasing decisions.
I am a business major myself and understand fully the concept of marketing and product placement. With audio products in the marketing mix, the 4 P's, product, price, place and promotion they do not seem to garner the same role as regular commercial products, because in audio, everyone is waiting for someone to comment on the product, the early adopters of such a product help make the sales or help to prevent sales. In mainstream marketing of a commercial product, the interest is garnered at a much larger scale and the community is a lot larger. For us audio minions, the community is so small that word of mouth and posts in these forums are really golden words for some and help many others to fully understand what is going on with the particular product that is being referenced. Many people are blowing off the magazine reviews to get impressions from audio products in these very forums. If I was marketing a product for the audio community, (I would ask my marketing manager who works for me in my business)I would use tools to search out the most popular products from the low end to the high end and focus my tactics on the products that are most asked about or wanted by fellow audio interested people. Again, a small niche. Now I am way off topic.
Hey where are you in Germany? I am in the Rheinland Pfalz region, Kaiserslautern area.
I know what forum you are talking about, the same one with the Forumslaufwerk. I never tried to keep up with that topic.
Great idea. I agree. That is why I made my comments regarding the early adopters and people who will get a chance to use the product and submit their impressions. That is one reason that this very forum exists. I cant wait to hear some impressions as I am looking at adding another tone arm to my turntable, a non-TW one. Perhaps this new one will fit my needs.
you are not informed quite well.
The 10.5 was egineered by Michael Wiedemann / Thomas Woschnik.
I know Michael for several years now. This design is not his first one. He has done many designs over the years.
But now, with the knowlegde of TW, he was able to design the ultimate tonearm, as he understand it.
It has nearly nothing in common with the arm, he introduced in the german AAA forum.
This arm was engineered and is build in Germany/Ruhrarea.
It has nothing in common with products, which components where bought in for cheap and sold in a shiny package for a lot of money (e.g.stepups from a Bavarian seller).
glad to meet another German user from TW's Marketing group after DT got 4 - four - private emails from TW.
2 Answers from you here at A'gon and both for TW products. Nice.
cheers for you too.
Hi Wini, - o.k. first of all: Syntax you won the bet ...
If TW and Mr. Wiedemann do think they have designed - based on their knowledge... - the ultimate tonearm as they do understand it, this is certainly great for them, but not my problem.
There will certainly be enough "claqueures" (sic....) in their camp to further promote those ultimate products.
We will see in due course - in 1-2 years - the used market price for the TW 10.5 (because there will be enough first hand buyers who will part again in due course with this ultimate tonearm...).
That will be the first real judgement.
We will see.
BTW - TW has sent me 3 emails as PM yesterday and congratulated me on my expertise and in-depth knowledge of his products and their flaws and virtues.
So you see - he and me, we really are on good terms.
That one quote of you however is puzzling:
***It has nothing in common with products, which components where bought in for cheap and sold in a shiny package for a lot of money (e.g.stepups from a Bavarian seller).***
I don't understand..... you mentioned (and I know that was true at least yesterday..) that TW is based in Herne/North-Rhine Westfalia.......... is he now about to move to Bavaria ?
You mistake my comments in one vital point. I am not in here for bashing any products for the joy of it.
What I can't stand is that every decent new launched product is hailed as the holy grail and the "ultimate".
I look at those products (mechanical ones - TTs and tonearms - NOT amplifiers) and see off hand several aspects of its design which I know do compromise its performance.
That is the reason why I ask for some earned laurels first before allowing any product to be called state-of-the-art right away.
Well - in any case, in early summer you are most welcome to discuss here a turntable I have designed and which will be presented here on Audiogon as well as in some international audio magazines.
It has 4 times the price tag of the TW's Black Night - so most german audiophiles won't be able to afford it.
However they will learn a lot about turntables.
But they won't like it at all......
I must say that the enjoyment factor here is very high. Let's raise it to the next level and have a meet, facetime. You know... Internet cameras, etc. The real deal.
I'll host it. A webinar: gratis from moneyrec.com. You have to have a webcam so we can see your face and thus get the truth and the lies out in the open. We can first congrat Thuchan on his purchase, we can then needle Raul as to where his tonearm vaporwear is, next to Dertonarm and his groudbreaking table and way to lose his retirement funds, next to Syntax on why we are not as smart as we should be. I'll invite Fremer to the party since he owns the current rage. I'll record the deck and we can sell to those less fortunate :)
I happen to like Raul. He has his biases but it isn't about product but more about synergy and design. He is transparent enough about them and has helped many here with wonderful advise.
But if such an event does ever happen, how about in person and taking place in Mexico.
We can have a wonderful discourse in Spanish, German & English.
How about a Stereophile Show in Mexico instead.
Webex audio seminar hosted by Audiogon. I love that idea.
And Audiogon could charge a price (hopefully small) for admission and/or replay.
Mikey can moderate.
RE: Raul...I was being over sarcastic, sometimes the keys I type and the words I think are two different things. Raul is great and I have learned much from him.
The offer stands though. I'll host account the first one. Webinars are great for connecting. Let's give one a try. The only issue is the audio. Our account does not have the 800 dialin number, so the call is a toll call to areacode 408 USA. I have tried Skype on the Webinars but the delays are very prominent with International Internet connections.
I joined Audiogon for 'escaping' the level in the German forum, but it's like coming home. Same narrow minded sensitivities, but another place - thanks guys.
Back to topic: is there anybody who already had a listnening session with the 10.5? There was a report in 'the' German forum and the 'LP' magazine, which sounded quite good regarding the performance of the arm.
some sensitivities in high ended minds seem to be universal. Just walk around a little in your new asylum to appreciate the differences.
But if want to read a hearing report you have to go back to the german forum - there's one. Listened at TW's home some days ago.
As far as I know only a small sample of prototypes are existing. You can't yet buy it regularly. So experiences may be sparse till now.
the arm is still in production and available as a real product.
The first batch are sold out and the next ones will be at your local dealers place in 3-4 weeks.
The first review is out in the German print magazine "LP".
I am sorry, this is only in German language.
I do my best to have a translation ready in the next weeks.
There will be more up coming reviews in the future.
Hi Thomas can you describe what does this arm superior to the breuer? Tks
Ok, thanks for clarification, Thomas.
I got some emails from people, knowing that I'm a Raven owner, asking if I have the arm myself, have heard it, being interested in (assuming synergies with the Raven family) and so on.
I got the impression that only a few items were on the market, in hands of friends, reviewers, whoever.
But being in production and available in a short term should be good news for the "beggars".
I am sorry but I don't give you a answer of your question. That is not fair to make comments of products from other manufactures. I sold a lot of Breuer arms together with the Raven TT, because it is a very good arm. I had it in use for my personal in the last 3 years.
Mr. Breuer a a great designer, a 100% respect from my side.
Hi Thomas i know you like the breuer therfore my question but if i understand correctly you chose a pivoted arm before a dynamic?
please, no discussion about who is the best.
I am not the right person for that.
We have some nice Germans here in AudiogoN, they can tell you what is the best.
01-18-10 Curio Said it were your words, sorry for the confusion.
Curio Said it were your words, sorry for the confusion... (Perrew)
Perrew .. you're really "confused" because I never wrote that!!!
Please don't use my name and don't make my name saying thoughts I never had!
Hi Perrew, a pivot tonearm can be both - static balanced as well as dynamic balanced.
The TW 10.5 is static balanced as are 99% of all tonearms. Dynamic balanced mode does need some specific design features regarding the bearing.
With the TW 10.5 with its gimbal bearing this would of course be possible, but the twin fathers of the TW 10.5 decided to go for the plain and much simpler approach of static balanced mode only.
One must remember, that giving a tonearm the option of dynamic balanced mode does not mean that it is impossible now to use it static balanced mode.
A dynamic balanced mode tonearm can (usually...) also be put in static mode only - if desired (Micro Seiki MAX and MA as well as SME V, FR-60 series etc.).
On the whole scale the 10.5 is a plain and straight forward gimbal bearing pivot tonearm with static balanced mode and medium mass and a geometry based on the IEC standard (which is suboptimal for older records from the late 1950ies to the late 1960ies).
What I am missing here is anything new or special. We do not see anything here - any real technical design feature - which hasn't been shown in previous designs of other manufacturers.
We see some cosmetic hints to the SME V, some to the new Ortofon, we see a - I believe good quality - gimbal bearing, fixed simple one-piece-counterweight on the same horizontal level as the bearing and an antiskating working with the basic idea shown in the Graham Phantom.
What I would have expected and would have liked to see in a tonearm asking $6k is something new, something unusual or at least something more creative.
I expect however that this tonearm will soon be revised and we will see a MK2 version by 2011.
Breuninger & Dgad - Peter´s idea is a wonderful idea. We would have so much fun. I would love going to Mexico again, I told Raul why. But why not meet in person at the High-End in Munich in May.
May isn´t a bad time in Munich with its wonderful beergardens in springtime. And on top of it we invite TW. He will provide everyone of us with a sample of its new tonearm to test it. How does this sound? TW agree?
My motto now: Go to Australia. Cool down !
I wrote above : "Thomas already told me before Xmass he has compared his new creature to the arms you mentioned above and he claimed his arm is sonically far superior"
I sent and I got very few emails about TW Arm 10.5 with Thomas W. just about the supposed final price and availability time , since I'm going to buy a new arm for my Raven One.
During one of these few emails Thomas wrote me he compared his new Jewel with some other arms but he "never" wrote me a precise comparation with a certain arm , notably he never wrote about a comparison to the Breuer because I never mentioned the Breuer to him .. due to the fact the Breuer isn't in my wished short arms list.
So if you were refferring to my post .. you are confusing and muddling thoughts.
I have great respect for Thomas W. and I repeat I exchanged few thoughts with him but I never asked him for a precise comparation with xyz arm .. and he never replied a precise comparation with xyz arm.
As I wrote .. he claimed his arm is very good , since he compared with "some other great arms" , and he injected enthusiasm into the new creature , as obvious for a designer.
Meeting in Munich in May ?!
Thichan - great idea !!
I am in for sure !
Now - TW should be at the High-End anyway.
All others should take the opportunity.
Munich is never as nice as in spring time.
Have a web?-camera with you and we can set up a nice discussion group regarding tonearm (and turntable....) design.
I would love to see this happen and would like to discuss tonearm (and turntable...) design with some of the "professional manufacturers" live and in person.
Hello Mr.Brakemeier (Dertonarm)
Do ever had a Graham Phantom in use? Or has Bob changed his antiskating design?
I am looking forward for more lessons about analog.
Hello Mr. Woschnik, well I guess you should digest and learn from all those lessons already out there first, before asking for more......
Right now its kind of asking for college tutorial when still struggling with elementary school routine.
There are many lessons out there for a tonearm designer who really wants to create something new and smart - one just have to have a remote interest to learn and to widen one's horizon.
Yes, I am familiar and had in personal use the Phantom and know the Phantom II from direct first hand impressions in a very familiar high class set-up with 3 top-flight current production LOMCs.
Again - you have problems reading correctly: "basic idea shown in the Graham Phantom" doesn't mean "same as..."
But if you look real close you could indeed learn a hell of a lot from Robert Grahams design. Many nice and some -at its point of introduction to the market- unique and highly innovative design features and some really smart solutions.
Something I would really like to see in your tonearm.
Curio, I quote:
Interesting to note that some of you have already chosen other arms over the 10.5 without even hearing it. My understanding is that Thomas has Phantom, Breur, Schroder, etc. tonearms. Am sure he has compared his own arm to these well known brands. (Eps)
Thomas already told me before Xmass he has compared his new creature to the arms you mentioned above and he claimed his arm is sonically far superior."
From the above one could conjecture TW stating the superiority to the Breuer.
Therefore my interest in knowing how the TW10.5 is sonically superior to the Breuer.
Meeting in Munich is a nice idea, there is good food and nice bavarian girls with Dirndls. When we meet each other, there will be some German Audiophiles, too.
Don't be confused when you hear that I talk to them v-e-r-y slowly, some of them are close to deaf. But quite enthusiastic and we have always good discussions about the price tags.
I find it contradictory that you are advocating from TW as follows, "What I would have expected and would have liked to see in a tonearm asking $6k is something new, something unusual or at least something more creative."
Then again, you strongly promote the FR66 tonearm as one of the best of all time. Something that is a very old design. What are we supposed to believe based on your writings? That something using old and tried principles which I assume you have some commercial interest in is worth $6K. Is there any new version of the FR66. Or should be look to spend an inflated $6K for a very old FR66? Yet a new, warrantied item from TW which as you seem to claim is using very standard design (not the case but so be it) should not be worth the same amount.
I follow your agenda on this web site. I just feel it is about time you make it clear to others as we seem to not understand you so well.
Your wonderful use of English even escapes your fellow Germans in understanding. "Again - you have problems reading correctly". You have said something like this in more than one post. I would suggest that something is lost in your translation of German to English. Maybe you should return to the German Forums where you won't be misunderstood.