bluemoodriver- MC - so what do you think the springs and bellows are doing? Please explain.
This is what I mean by the futility of trying to converse with someone with very low reading comprehension. This has been explained already, very clearly, in the OP: Natural sounds start and stop very quickly. Sounds reproduced by our systems cause the system itself to vibrate, then the room, and the room feeds back into the system until the whole thing is ringing like a bell. This all happens very fast and can be seen demonstrated on a seismograph placed on a speaker. https://youtu.be/BOPXJDdwtk4?t=6 That is from the OP. Don’t take my word for it, scroll up, see for yourself. Relax, read the text, watch the video. Watch the whole video. It explains a lot, which is why I linked to it. Then... one technique proven to help learn and understand is to try and restate a position in your own words as effectively and powerfully as possible. Even if you want to pick it apart, it goes a whole lot better when you know what it is you are trying to pick apart. Right now you don’t even know. Or you wouldn’t be asking. So my suggestion is after studying this instead of coming back with guesses and rhetorical questions try and state in your own words and as best you can your own understanding of what is going on. |
Great example of how "diminishing returns" don't have to be diminishing at all. |
Funny you should mention, I was fine tuning my Moabs yesterday and once again impressed with how smoothly the level adjusters work even with these 150lb speakers, and how easy it is to get them perfectly level.
As I recall, Ozzy noted in his review the Podiums are quite a bit better than the Gaia he had before. Thanks for the link and the reminder how good these things are. |
The optimal amount of damping is very low, a few percent at most. Townshend accomplishes this by putting the spring inside a rubber bellows. A very small hole in the top plate allows a small amount of air to move in and out. Squeeze a Pod in your hand, you can hear this air whooshing in and out. Without the hole the air would be just another spring. With the hole it loses some energy each way, just enough to damp out resonant behavior. Zero moving parts, zero wear, very ingenious.
Before going to Townshend I tried various plain springs and tried an experiment or two with sorbothane. But while I am pretty good and creative and put my share of work into it I cannot hold a candle to you, mahgister. 👍 |
You can try them that way. I would also try them directly on the Podiums without the footers. Either way I think you will find the Podiums are a big improvement that makes the speakers really come alive. |
grannyring- I plan to talk to John about the Pods for use under my rack and/or individual pieces of gear. His products are not low priced, but I can see them staying in place for a lifetime unlike others I have tried or owned. In the end, cost of ownership may be a net savings vs less expensive and less effective products. This is a point I have been trying to make for a very long time now. When we buy a component it is good for anywhere from a few months to some years. It improves the system until we sell it, always at a loss, and spend more on a better one- that we hope will be better but often times turns out merely different. But a good tweak is pretty much forever. A lot of them don't really ever wear out. If we like what we have the tweak only makes it better. If its a great tweak like Pods it makes it a LOT better! Without changing the fundamental character of what we had, which is the big risk with component upgrades. My rack is so super massive I've never felt the need, but the more of you guys trying springs if you get good results I might just have to try it and see for myself. Some day. So many projects.... |
Excellent! When the ringing and resonance are gone it is a lot easier to hear all the little differences between the instruments, isn't it? I haven't used bars but can only imagine you are hearing what I'm hearing with Podiums and Pods. Pretty good, ain't it? ;)
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It is going on like 30 years now that I have known cable elevators work. Read the comment on my System page, Deborah had her eyes closed when she "heard" me remove them. Done the demo for many others many times. Definitely beyond a shadow of a doubt for real.
Only recently however did I come to understand why. People had all these theories, and I went back and forth. Now I am quite certain it is vibration control. Getting the cables up off the floor allows them to vibrate on their own with all the same improvements we hear with Podiums and Pods.
I wasn't really certain of this until I tried the rubber band trick. That clinched it. The improvement was definitely there, and no other explanation is left.
Once proven on speaker cables I did power cords, and then the interconnect. The phono lead took longer. Had to rig a block of wood with a couple nails into a rig to hold the phono leads. Once adjusted they are not touching the rack or anything else, and there is a bit of a strain relief curve going into the turntable.
Right now the only two things left to be suspended are the sub amps and the step down transformer. Those two are still on Cones. Oh, and the AC. I should probably get something to suspend the AC from the meter. Right now it is nailed to joists just like in some non-audiophiles home. Or should I say non-serious audiophile? 😉 Time for me to get serious! 😂 Can't believe I crawled around under there painting TC and wrapping Mats and neglected to suspend the wires. What was I thinking???😂😂 |
Then or now, I think most people buy the story as much as the sound. Hardly anyone ever bothers to compare. Not that it's all that easy to do even if you wanted. I started out like many do thinking the whole idea extremely farfetched and therefore not willing to spend a dime on what I know will turn out to be a wasted effort.
But it is a hobby and I do have a keen interest and so I tried, first phone books and of course that made hardly any difference at all but the fact it made any difference was telling and so one thing led to another and soon I was trying all kinds of things.
Along the way I learned that not only the material but the size and shape of the material makes a difference. For decades it seemed the last thing you wanted was something soft and squishy like a spring. Because sorbothane and other soft stuff like that did lower the noise floor and did reveal some detail but also sucked the life out of the music. Spikes on the other hand went completely the other way, only instead of sucking they are adding etch and emphasizing a top end that a lot of guys seem to mistake for detail.
Now looking back it is clear all that was ringing, and all the different spikes and cones were tuning the ringing to what people like. Even today all that is going on with a lot of these things is people using different materials and shapes to tune out some of the more unpleasant peaks in the ringing. That is what Gaia do, they are sort of springy but too damped. Ordinary springs are better, at least in some ways, but have the resonance problem.
Mahgister uses springs above and below and that is another way of tuning out some of the objectionable resonances that come with springs. If you have one sort of spring below with one mass it will have one set of resonant frequencies. If you then add another set with another mass it will have another and they will average out smoother. Similar to the way a lot of subs in a DBA is smoother and better than just one sub.
The beauty of it is once you get the hang of it there are a whole lot of applications. Simply removing the hot glue from the board my crossover is mounted on and using some sorbothane for crude isolation improved the crossover. Rubber bands are a sort of spring and so I figured out a way to use them to hold my phono leads that reduces ringing and vibrations being transmitted up the cables into the tone arm. The opportunities are endless. |
Credit John Hannant. I gave him the weight and dimensions, he did the rest. These things being where they are you don't get down on the floor much to get a good look at them, but looking at the pictures I am reminded just how good they really do look. The paint is a special coating made in Texas, looks great and incredibly durable, not one mark from walking these 150lb speakers into position. Perfect width, about 1" wider than the Mobs, and about 3" deeper which is perfect to allow them to be placed a little further back for balance. |
Podiums are indeed good. New pics show my Moabs are on Podiums with BDR Cones and Round Things. Podiums are so low-profile they only raised the Moabs an insignificant amount compared to what they were before, maybe about an inch. Don’t know. Didn’t measure the before and after height. Only location. They are precisely where they were before. https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/8367 |
Okay. Gotcha. In that case, still wrong, but for a different reason. The mods will probably pull this post, they hate it when I explain certain things.
All internet sites such as this one are granted protection from prosecution for libel and other acts that would apply to things like newspapers and TV shows, on the theory these sites are public squares. If you were talking about a newspaper, where an editor reads everything first and then decides whether or not to publish, fine. But that is not what we have here. Not at all.
This site, pretty much all websites, Facebook, Youtube for sure, are deemed the equivalent of the public square. If you call someone up on the phone and plan a bank robbery no one can sue the phone company as a co-conspirator. Websites such as this one are granted protections under USC Section 230 because they are supposed to be nothing more than a pipeline. As opposed to and distinct from newspapers that exercise editorial control over everything they publish.
Therefore, if a website goes around pulling certain things as you think they are able to do, then yes indeed you are right they have the right to do that. But then they lose that protection and we also have the right to sue them. Today as things stand they are trying to have it both ways. Censor when they feel like it, while still claiming special protected status.
You cannot have it both ways. The jury is still out. But I had some valuable information, intellectual property you might say, heck I will say it! Can't just go around stealing that and not expect someone eventually to come looking for their legal remedy.
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So, about a year ago I decided that my comments would have a shelf life. That is; when the subject matter starts to turn or when interest starts to wane, I will pull it. And everyone else's too. Precisely why no one should have such power: it will always be abused. |
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In hindsight it makes perfect sense. When we do something to the system, electronics or components, it affects the signal and so it does pretty much the same thing to everything across the board. So play a record, any record, you hear the improved detail, dynamics, image, whatever you play it is the same. But with this, because the effect is on resonance, well every individual instrument excites these resonances differently. So there are some similarities sure but there are also a lot of things where maybe something like a wood block or string bass has a signature sound that maybe excites and resonates more. Well in that case then when this exaggeration is gone that instrument is going to sound way, way, WAY more exactly like itself than ever.
That would explain why sometimes even now I put something on and it hits me that OMG that sounds so much more REAL! Only it is not like with say my Herron where after a month everything is sounding just that little bit more refined. This was laying there ready from the beginning, only just needing this one particular instrument to come along and reveal it.
I think this is why I find myself enjoying Sinatra-Basie, Tchaikovsky, stuff like that a whole lot more. It's not like rock and electric stuff isn't better too, but anything with natural live acoustic instruments- especially human voice!- because we know what those really are supposed to sound like, when we hear them on Podiums they actually do sound that way, for once, finally, and it really is something to hear. |
Is it in yet? Is it in yet? The review. Is it in yet? Not like we are anxious or anything but, are we there yet? Pictures? Video? 😂😂😂😍😍😂😂
Oh man, I don't know who is having the better morning, me or Oz. If you only knew.... 😁 |
Right, the improvements these things make, some of them will be familiar and similar to other stuff. Dynamics, clarity, imaging, etc. But some of it like more natural lifelike timbre and tone affects so many different instruments, some of them it seems more than others, or maybe that is just the way I notice it. But whatever the reason it kind of creeps up on you more and more over time just how much better it is. This is different than the usual deal where something burns in or whatever. Pretty sure all the improvement is there right from the beginning. It just takes a while for the depth and breadth of it all to sink in. |
Lucky mine weren't like that. As I was following tracking it went from 2pcs to 1pc and I was like Where's the other one? Then it would show, and ultimately DHL gets them both here together. If I had one and not the other, arrggghghgh! Review Monday??
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A 2x4 is too thick to slide under the Podium. So I lay it down on edge and cut a bevel on one end, bringing the 2" thick end down to only about 1/4". This will now slide under the Podium, with the bevel angle matching the angle of the lever. The 2x4 laying wide like this is plenty stable to support lifting the Podium without it tilting either way. I did this because the feet were hard to slide on my carpet. Raising the whole platform like this enabled me to slide BDR Round Things under each footer, without having to move the speaker off and back onto the Podium. This one cut on the chop saw saved a lot of work!
Incidentally, I would not have thought it would make much difference but BDR under the Podium is definitely better. I got this idea from another guy, who prefers PM to public comments. Also the BDR Round Things slide on carpet making it a breeze to fine tune position now.
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Oh, I got another tip that allowed me to raise and lower my 140+lb Moabs with one hand: leverage! Take a 2x4 about 18" long and cut a bevel on one end. Leave the 2x4 only about 1/4" thick at the end and it will slide right under the Podium. Then place a dowel or 2x2 for leverage. Press down with one hand, the whole thing lifts easily!
With the other hand slide a shim under each side and lower it down. Repeat at the other end. Repeat if needed to raise high enough for whatever clearance you require. Works so well I had my wife come and, "Do you need me, dear?" No, but watch this! 😳
The coating that is on there, Townshend is understandably tight with things from having been ripped off before (check out the bogus Podium knockoff video someone here found) so all I know, it is an extremely durable paint/coating made here in the States. My Moabs are on BDR Cones, they were walked back and forth a couple times, kept looking expecting to find marks but, nada. Tough stuff. |
What I did was to first of all screw both the upper and lower adjusters down to as low as they would go. This automatically levels the base, at least if the floor is level.
Then I "walk" the speaker up onto the Podium- first tilt to one side so it is balanced on the two feet or cones on that side. Then tilt it onto just one corner, and rotate the way you want it to go. Tilt back and forth like this until as far as you can go over the Podium.
At this point you have a choice. Either continue to walk it forwards onto the Podium, or switch sides tilt it the other way and walk it backwards to where you want it to go.
If you are on carpet I found it useful to use something round and smooth like a furniture coaster under each foot. This will make sliding around to adjust position a lot easier.
With the speaker on the Podium and the Podium as low as it will go this is the time to move the whole thing to exactly where you want it to be. This is the time to do it because the springs will probably be fully compressed making it relatively easier to slide around. I say relatively because the way they are designed to have full freedom of movement each tower can still move around a little. This makes moving it a little more of a challenge than something like say a solid butcher block or slab of granite. Pay attention to how each foot moves, you will get the hang of it.
Once it is right where you want it then start turning the top adjusters, two at a time as per directions. Be careful, you may need to use the supplied thin wrench to prevent the lower nut turning when adjusting the upper handle.
Most speakers have drivers in the front so the center of gravity is a little forward, so in order for the speaker to be balanced it will not be centered on the Podium but a little further towards the back. But however it winds up you then turn the front two, and then the back pair, one full turn at a time until you notice the whole Podium is up high enough to be moving freely on the springs.
At this point I like to look and check each corner to be sure it is free to move in all directions. What I found worked best was to push sideways on the Podium base a little and let go. If the springs are all free to move the whole platform will oscillate side to side no matter which direction you push, and the speaker will also be free to rock side to side, up and down.
As long as this is what you get then it is high enough. Does not need to be a great deal of movement. In actual use playing music the speaker will not move at all. Not that you can see anyway. All this rocking and rolling is just to be sure the springs are totally free to move.
Once everything is high and free then double-check location, and then finally double-check they are level. This is a lot more nit-picky than the instructions, because I am a total OCD when it comes to speaker placement. OCD is putting it mildly.
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The longer you work on your system the more things you have likely tried and, at a point, the population of things that "could" offer improvement gets smaller and smaller. I know just what you mean. Because I was right there with that same way of thinking. First it was all you need is speakers, amp, source. Then wire. Okay so speakers, amp, source, wire. Then conditioner. Okay so.... you get the idea. Then if you clean the contacts, okay contacts clean, but now we are really running out of things to do. Right? Not so fast: Room. Okay so acoustic panels. Rack. We have a good rack. Surely we are done now? What? Cones? Wait, what- springs are better than cones???! Okay now we are done. Sorry. Back to wires. It matters where they go. Okay so move the wires. No, not on the floor. Okay so up off the floor. Are we there yet??? The whole time this is going on, which is by the way not years but decades, in the background the whole time is a chorus of millions chanting, "diminishing returns, diminishing returns, diminishing returns." Only instead of diminishing returns what I’m hearing is steady to occasionally increasing returns. One Schumann generator isn’t exactly transformative, but ten of them sure are and at only $10 each that is one hell of a strange sort of diminishing return! Don’t even get me going on the rubber bands, just one of several worth doing that cost zip! Two plus grand for some Podiums might seem excessive under $4500 Moabs, until you hear it and realize how many tube traps it would take to clean up the bass this much, how many diffusers and absorbers, if such a thing even is possible. The improvement in clarity is so great I seriously doubt any amount of acoustic treatment can match what Podiums do. The bottom line then is completely the opposite. The population of things that could be improvements is getting bigger. Not only that, it is no longer "could" but now with experience I know it is "will". Like for example the last thing I did was to my crossover, which I knew would be an improvement, the only remaining question being how much. Quite a lot, as I found out. The beauty of all this is it is now quite easy to say with certainty that enough of the right tweaks and accessories can elevate performance far above anything attainable with the conventional big box component upgrade approach. This leaves me more stoked than ever to hear what lies ahead! |
pmiller115, that is a really good description, and I noticed the same thing but get so focused on sweet spot listening I never mentioned it so glad you brought it up. My first time coming home after being at Mike Lavigne's, his room is so neutral-flat across the band and it really hit me at first like my room is all tubby and bloaty. That was last summer when my Moabs and everything was on DIY springs. I was left with the impression a whole lot of tube traps are needed....
More recently though when I did the same thing I was really pleased to hear my system when I got home. All the bloat was gone. No tube traps. The only difference, this time instead of springs everything is on Townshend- all the components on Pods, speakers on Podiums.
You are absolutely right. I am pretty OCD about putting a record on, sitting right down to listen. Hardly ever put anything on and walk around. But you are absolutely correct. Nailed it.
The difference has to be that now the room- floor, walls, ceiling- are being mechanically vibrated a whole lot less. What vibrations there are, they are from sound, not nearly so much mechanically transmitted through the speaker cabinet, floor, etc. Pretty obvious with bass, you feel it in the chest and body not coming up through the floor and chair. That same sort of thing is probably causing the walls to vibrate and act like speakers, with the ringing being what makes the unlistenable areas.
Pretty crazy good stuff to be getting from just one thing like that, eh? |
Wow. One of the best descriptions of the Holy Grail of high end sound I ever heard. |
When did you get the F1 duckworp? The F1 is not very common, hardly anyone here has heard them. You should review them for us!
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Right prof. But let us set all that aside. The following little exercise is something I started doing all by myself back in the 90’s. People like to talk about marginal returns, always assuming it is less and less, on which I disagree, but whatever, let us call this miller’s rule of marginal returns.
Miller’s rule of marginal returns is when the improvement is worth it (and you can afford it!) then you do it. That simple.
Worth it, compared to what? Why anything else you could do, of course! Usually that means a better component. So let us consider Townshend Podiums in light of Miller’s rule of marginal returns. Should we buy them? Are they worth $2k or whatever?
Well now, I have never heard Tekton Ulfberht’s but teajay has and he informed me in no uncertain terms they are only very very slightly better than Moabs, and even then the improvement is almost entirely in the one small band of bass impacted by the extra woofers. Well, my Moabs on Townshend Podiums have imaging, detail, and truth of timbre that is quite a bit obviously better, including with a lot better bass.
My Moabs on Podiums at about $2300 are half what it would cost to upgrade to Ulf’s, and so the marginal return on Podiums is greater than the upgrade and highly recommended purely on the basis of sound quality per dollar.
Different people will of course think of different speakers. Not the point. You are free to choose and go with whatever you want. You can choose Totem, you can choose Harbeth, you can choose Wilson. Don’t care! To each his own! All that matters is when you try em you wind up realizing it was more improvement than you could have got from changing speakers.
All that matters.
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Two things about the "punch" prof, one is as Rick told me, you will know it is right when the punch is through the air and chest not the chair and butt. A lot of what we think of as bass slam is just the speaker vibrating the floor and chair. You never will have as much of that.
But the fact it is going through the floor and chair also means it is going through the floor and equipment, smearing sound all over the place. I'm sure part of the clarity improvement from the Podiums is less vibration getting to the turntable and amp.
The second thing is I used different springs like Nobsound and some others and they were just like you described. If you play around with loading you can tune the balance to reduce some of what you don't like. But you will always be left with a little less of that slam impact. With Townshend, I don't know how Max does it, but there is more slam. Not the same as on the floor, because it is no longer coming through the floor. But relative to other springs the bass has a much more solid foundation, more visceral impact.
The difference I would describe as with nothing or spikes the string bass player is there and you feel it in your butt. With springs the bass player is a little more there and you feel it in your chest. With Podiums the bass player is THERE! and you feel his fingers plucking each string, you feel the body of the instrument, you feel the bass player doing his little hmmmhmmm thing they all do, and it is just way more organically palpably real and THERE! To steal Fremer's line, "there's more there there!"
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au_lait-
@millercarbon I
just ordered 4 pods on your recommendation! I’m almost finished with my
2nd plinth and have been on the fence between these pods and
Stillpoints. I have had to move my room around and discovered new
footfalls, so hoping these help. Thanks for the extensive reporting,
appreciated. Thanks, and thanks for letting us know. Increasingly people PM and I seem to be batting close to a thousand. Something cool if you are DIY, when you get the Pods screw the top completely off and see how it's made. You can use them as originally intended or with the addition of a short threaded stud you could thread them directly into your plinth. Just another option to explore. |
This just in: the company in the video was the importer to Switzerland of Townshend many years ago. They copied the Townshend shelf and use it with their speakers. So there you go. Nice guys. |
The Townshend platform used in the video mitch2 posted is a double-decker design with different springs and standing a lot taller than Podiums. It is clear to me they are not Podiums, yet the guy in the video calls them Podiums.
So I asked around, and am told they look like a very early generation Townshend Stella stand. Why Credo would choose to so blatantly mislead, well we report, you decide.
Likewise there is one point in the video where the graph of the Townshend is clearly better than the Credo. He jumps forward and starts talking about the Credo, and again I leave it to you guys to watch and decide for yourselves why he is being so intentionally misleading.
I will say though that I find it hilarious the way the Townshend video I linked is dismissed as a shill while the other one that appears to me far more biased is deemed highly informative and helpful.
As far as the low level of these improvements are concerned, I have my doubts this is even a good faith discussion on both sides. On one side for sure. The other fellow though...
The proof of human experience is the human being. When people hear it, they hear it. The burden of proof is on the one doing the measuring, not the other way around. At least that is the case for as long as we are talking about what we are talking about: audiophile gear. These things either work, or don't, and either way we know by listening.
This only changes when we flip from being audiophiles looking for better stuff to manufacturers looking to make better stuff. When all you want is results you buy what works. When building it though, whole different story.
Then and only then the concept of "do they really hear it?" begins to matter. Because they pretty much have to hear, or they won't buy. That is why it can make sense for Max or Keith to test and measure, and even do double-blind testing. Building and buying are two very different things. The degree to which people routinely confuse them only goes to show the degree to which they themselves are confused.
There really is no answer that will ever be enough for the one who wants to argue. On the other hand the answers are everywhere - for the one who is willing to listen.
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mitch2, thanks for the video. Ringing and smear- just what Max said. Very easy to see on the Townshend video. Very hard to decipher on the graphs the Swiss guy likes to use. Being able to see it in real time makes it crystal clear. Was nice to hear the guy say spikes do transmit vibration up into the speaker, and they add resonance at different frequencies. Exactly what I have heard for years and why I never used them.
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Question - does any of the secondary vibration imparted to the cabinet make it all the way back through the isolation of the diaphragm and voice coil... What? Since when did the driver get isolated from the cabinet? |
Yes and probably at any price too. |
Send a set my way, I will happily compare! |
I didn't remove it. Some mod who sympathized with some triggered snowflake removed it. I stand by every single word. It is pointless trying to corrrespond with people who cannot comprehend even simple sentences. You for example spent the last two weeks hijacking a thread only to wind up corroborating every single thing I have been saying- but then acting like you reached some new and completely different understanding.
That is why I created the list. I have this problem where I like to think everyone is just trying to learn. And therefore capable of learning. But the reality is there are people like you who, well you will have it removed if I say that so just let me say thanks to you I am back to the Hateful 18 list and you being on it, ... bye! |
This is what I mean by the futility of trying to converse with someone with very low reading comprehension. |
bluemoodriver- How the devil do you think the microscopic and high frequency vibrations your cabinet experience are dampened in any way by springs and bellows with holes in. I don't. They aren't. Where did you get that idea from anyway? For sure it was not from me. So where then? |
bluemoodriver- again, one more teachable moment: The magnet isn’t meant to move of course. The coil does - probably less than a 10th the mass of the magnet. So the vibration movement of the cabinet in the vertical plane is probably a 10th of that estimate. So that’s 0.00001 mm every 200th of a second.
Just the thing for a steel spring and bellows to sort out!
must be why not a single speaker manufacture has this as part of their design. Eliminate all the guesses, assumptions, and hypotheticals and we are left with: isn’t meant to
probably
probably
must be why not a single speaker manufacture has this as part of their design. In other words, what you just said- literally- is probably, probably, probably, must be. How exactly do you get from "probably" to "must be"? When you suck the air out and nothing is left, that is what we call "vacuous." |
Mitch- Adjusting for level it is a whole lot easier to just turn a screw. That is what Townshend does with their Pods and Podiums. Rather than messing around trying to find springs that balance either get Townshend or if you are DIY then just drill your Nobsound or whatever and tap for 1/4-20 threads. |
mitch2- Another way to consider it would be to get the app and then put your phone on your speaker. Using the same music and sound level, take readings with the speaker spiked to the floor and readings with the speaker on springs or a spring platform. It might be interesting. The springs are an isolation tool and if properly sized, preloaded, and damped this idea of speakers bouncing around and distorting is probably not what is happening. Reflections from the floor could be worse but I haven't measured it so I don't know. "Haven't done it so don't know." Thank you so much for saying that. Have asked many times, when you just don't know, please say you just don't know. Instead of pontificate as if you do. Your candor is a breath of fresh air. Your app idea has been done and demonstrates this beautifully. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOPXJDdwtk4 This one short clip clearly demonstrates exactly what is happening, exactly how Podiums make such a huge improvement. Notice the one dealer said they were having a problem with booming bass due to the room they were in. Podiums eliminated it. This is another thing I have been saying, that a lot of times problems aren't really quite what we think they are. If that dealer asked around here you can bet your bottom dollar he would have got tube traps, GIK and EQ all day long. Nobody but me would have said try Podiums. Watch the video. Look who'd be right. The blur or ringing Max shows in this video is a great visual representation of what happens with music. Instead of blur, everything is in focus. Just a huge improvement. |
Relax mahgister, he never knows anything about anything, this is no different. One of many it is best to simply ignore. mofojo-
MC
I’m not ready to drop that kind of coin on some spring platforms at this point. Can you recommend what springs and where to buy them so I could play around with some DIY platforms? Understand. Springs are the best, but you don't need the best springs (Townshend) to realize this. Even plain springs are still very good compared to just about anything else. If you know your load, what your speaker or whatever weighs, take that weight and divide by 3 or 4, the number of springs you want to use. That gives you your load per spring. Then search eBay for the right spring. It won't be easy. You want a spring that your load will compress it about half way. 50-70% is about right. When compressed it should be wider than tall. For stability. But not too wide, it must move freely in all directions not just up and down. The hardest most time consuming part of the whole thing is searching around for the right spring! These are the ones we used under my Moabs. https://www.ebay.com/itm/160-Wire-Compression-Spring-Lot-Of-4/223934604299?hash=item34238ae40b:g:og8... These will work with speakers (amp, whatever) from about 125lbs to 175lbs, maybe even up to 200 lbs. They were quite good with the Moabs. I searched around and bought smaller but similar ones for my subs. Searching around for the right load spec was killing me. Sometimes I got ones that looked okay per spec but when I got them no way! So I switched to Nobsound. Amazon has different versions, they look different but are almost exactly the same. Seven small springs per footer, use however many the component requires. Basically try different numbers of springs until it sounds right. The beauty of this is you wind up with leftover springs! Cut a piece of MDF or acrylic, drill some 1/4" divots, and you've made another footer! That's what I did. Most gear needs only about half the springs they give you, so if you can DIY you can probably have 8 footers for the price of one! The disadvantage with springs like these is they resonate. There's a real art to getting the most from them. Notice mahgister talks about fine tuning adjustments. Eliminating all these resonances and the need for tuning is Townshend's great achievement. I don't want to go too deep into springs on the Townshend thread. PM me for details if you want to try this. |
Yeah Bob it is strange. I started with Pods under my turntable. The most obvious place you would expect would make the biggest improvement. But I swear they improved my tube amp at least as much! It is still a little strange to feel the amp move when turning a knob but the sound is so much better I will just have to get used to it. Haven't tried them under my CDP, I listen only to records now, but John is adamant they work great on digital.
He was right about my phono stage. And speakers. So probably right about the DAC as well. Please let us know how it goes.
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That is one of the more consistent improvements I have heard across different uses. No matter what else happens the bass gets tighter, with greater slam or impact and more articulate. It is hard to describe because sometimes it feels like more bass because of the extra slam or impact, but other times it feels like less, because tighter less round or tubby. However you describe it though there is no doubt it is better!
That is a very high end pre-amp to be getting a lot of improvement from Podiums shows how good they really are.
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mitch2: I too have come to appreciate the benefit of springs under my speakers and electronic gear. Last year, I was able to find appropriately sized springs to support my heavy speakers, subs, monoblock amplifiers, and server. After reading about the Townshend pods, I damped the springs by covering them with a thin wall heat shrink and using a nail set to punch a couple of small holes in the side of the heat shrink to release the internal air. This damping along with an appropriate precompression and spring rate, seems to have resulted in a natural frequency that is below the audible range. The Townshend pods and podiums are probably better but for not a lot of money the springs perform better than anything I have used previously. Like MC says....a more natural sound.
That’s the best I can think to describe it. The usual "improved dynamics and detail" just feels so inadequate. |
Not surprised but happy to hear. Several here have tried them on my word and all have been very happy. Also I mentioned speakers because that is the main market but pretty sure there is at least one who used a Podium under his turntable to solve a very difficult turntable vibration problem that had been bugging him for a long time. I forget if it was a Podium or Max sent him a Podium plinth for mass and he used that as a shelf with Pods. One or the other. Point being the stuff totally works.
How long have you had yours, and what are you using them with? |
