Townshend Seismic Podiums

I am currently using them on a pair of Spendor D9s.  A friend in my local audio group has them under his Vienna Acoustic Liszt.  In both our systems they improved the overall soundstage and presentation once properly adjusted.  Bass was good in each or our systems prior to adding the Podiums but there was probably a tightening though not as pronounced in my setup as the soundstage improvement.

Thanks for your reply. I have a question for your friend's system which has the Liszt speakers. Did he take them off the outriggers and set them on the podium, or did he leave them on and set the speakers with outriggers on top of the podium.

I appreciate your feedback.
Sam

Environmental rumble is composed of a number of elements including seismic activity, traffic, construction work, people walking in the house, the washing machine, and in my case the woodworking shop. Will isolating the speaker from this improve your sound?  The speaker is not capable of amplifying this vibration so there is absolutely no interaction between environmental rumble which is and the sound you hear from your loud speaker. This is very unlike the situation with a turntable which is quite capable of amplifying environmental rumble allowing it to distort the sound that you hear.

They can be used either way. Bear in mind the main point of outriggers is stability. Podiums already are wider and more stable. It won't gain anything going even wider, but you will need larger Podiums to accommodate outriggers. 

Thanks Millercarbon and by the way, what is your real name?

Of course I am looking for improvements in sonics, however out riggers sitting on top of the podiums might be minimal in aesthetics and cause more problems for adjustments so that's why I think the speakers should be on the podiums without the outriggers. 

Thanks,
Sam

Thanks Millercarbon and by the way, what is your real name?

Of course I am looking for improvements in sonics, however out riggers sitting on top of the podiums might be minimal in aesthetics and cause more problems for adjustments so that's why I think the speakers should be on the podiums without the outriggers. 

Thanks,
Sam

Sam,
Those speakers will probably both look and sound better sitting directly on Podiums. You may want to experiment with different materials between the speakers and the Podiums. I use BDR Cones on Round Things. Partly for looks, partly to make it easier to avoid scratches. It is overkill, I wouldn't go out and buy them for this, but I have em so I use em. 
Cheers,
Chuck

Townshend recommends removing feet from the speakers before putting the speakers on their podiums so that the floor to bottom of speaker height is minimally affected. This has to do with not altering the speaker’s bass response. I would think that outriggers should be treated as feet in this regard. If in doubt, call them. They are very helpful.

If your loudspeakers are standard "boxes"---without integral outrigger-style bases (for instance, a Magico, smaller Wilson, or any other typical floor stander) , the Townshend Audio Seismic Podium will provide and create a larger-than-the-speaker-enclosure footprint for that loudspeaker, a generally good thing (I’ll assume you understand why). If you decide to give the Podium a try, remove all "isolation" between the loudspeaker and the Podium platform, such as any rubber feet or spikes included with your speaker.

The Seismic Pods then take that larger footprint---which provides greater lateral stability, especially with tall speakers (which may appear contradictory to the basic premise of the Seismic Pod spring’s freedom of movement---that is, until you digest and fully understand the Pod’s concept, design, and methodology)---and isolate the speaker from terra firma. If you view that proposition as "silly" and/or "painfully insulting", cool; you've saved yourself some money (go buy some CD’s ;-), and there are more Pods left for others to buy and enjoy the benefits of.

If your loudspeakers are already fitted with outrigger bases (either that provided with the loudspeaker, or a, for instance, Vandersteen or Eminent Technology speaker fitted with a dedicated Sound Anchor stand---and are happy with the pairing, you may instead buy sets of Seismic Pods, which you then either simply place under the outrigger "legs", or better yet (imo) bolt onto the legs, just as the Pods are bolted onto the Seismic Podium.

For those skeptical of a loudspeaker sitting on a set of springs--- a concept that violates everything we’ve come to believe about the moving mass of a dynamic woofer causing a reciprocal movement of the woofer’s enclosure in response to the woofer’s movement (or at least the possibility of such), I completely understand and empathize. When I first read about the Herbie’s isolation products (especially the tiptoes fitted with a layer of a pliant rubbery substance), my reaction was based on that exact premise. I "knew" a loudspeaker enclosure should be as immovable as possible, so as to provide the most stable platform against which to move---the excursion of the driver in relation to that immovable platform therefore producing the closest reproduction of that signal of which it is capable. Seems like a lifetime ago ;-) .

Max Townshend is quite aware of the reciprocal movement of an enclosure in response to a woofer’s moving mass. He’s a mechanical engineer, for God’s sake! (and has built a loudspeaker with a huge woofer compliment. One of the UK reviewers has a pair, as well as the amazing Rock Reference turntable, for which I would kill him ;-).

But with "Seismic" isolation, we’re talking about something far more subtle. Max addresses the issue of Seismic-scale vibration versus reciprocal woofer-enclosure movement in a YouTube video. With the Podiums (or Pods) in place, the loudspeaker enclosure does not move in response to the moving mass of a woofer reproducing a very low frequency, though the loudspeaker WILL "rock" back and forth if pushed, which may lead one to think it would move when the woofer does. If you want to educate yourself about that issue, all you have to do is watch the damned Townshend Audio YouTube videos. The most informative one has Max behind a table, with a screen on the wall behind him. All is explained, and more importantly, demonstrated.

Watch the videos, and if your interest is piqued, try a set of Pods on your most sensitive component. Max considers that to be your loudspeakers. The turntable is another obvious candidate, as are valve (in honour of Townshend’s UK base of operations ,-) electronics.

Speaker cabinet vibrations are complex and varied. Rick makes a good case for the cabinet vibrating like a balloon. As drivers pressurize the cabinet, air pressure causes the walls to flex outwards like a balloon or tire being filled with air. Then it rapidly depressurizes. These cycles cause the whole speaker, not just the baffle, not just the sides, but the whole thing to be expanding and contracting. This is in addition to the obvious forward and back motion caused by the drivers.   

This may be one of the reasons cones and spikes work better than sitting directly on the floor. Cones and spikes go in corners, which are a lot more reinforced than the middle of the bottom, which is vibrating up and down, expanding and contracting. 

None of this vibrating is anywhere near as simple as that. What we think of as back and forth, expanding/contracting or whatever, if we look closer there are waves riding upon waves. This is a lot of what Wilson and others are trying to address with their composite honeycombed unobtanium high tech materials. 

Pods and Podiums simply allow all this complex motion to occur without exciting adjacent materials such as the floor. They work by allowing the speaker cabinet to dissipate its own energy without feeding into the floor, and equally important, without the floor energy feeding into the speaker. 

However we explain it, the results speak for themselves.

Addendum: One thing I neglected to mention:

The matter of "seismic" level vibration isolation is of significance only after system transparency and resolution has achieved a "certain" level of quality. Geez, I’m reminding myself of Chris Farley’s "motivational speaker" character on SNL ;-) .

Good lord. You want them locked to the ground. Any speaker movement will smear your sound. Serious spikes, steel straps and turnbuckles may be overkill.

Dead right @pengun.  Simple really.  All said in two short, simple sentences.  Bravo.  To the rest: boing boing.

"...if your interest is piqued, try a set of Pods on your most sensitive component."

But PLEEEZE fit them carefully.

Springs would appear counter intuitive , but believe me once heard you will appreciate they are better than spikes by a good margin.

The secret is not to kill vibrations - but to put them in a certain spectrum ... for this reason there is no universal device - every situation is individual ... it's like tuning a musical instrument ...

don't believe me? - put a heavy dumbbell on your acoustics - the sound will deteriorate - it will become jammed ...

no one makes turntables out of rubber and lead for the same reason ... you have to catch certain vibrations ...

I checked the Mapleshade system - it works noticeably on a tube amplifier ...

The springs worked well in the Rocsan Dp 1 CD transport (there the drive floats on springs) ... - apparently it was calculated successfully.

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/GObGsdMtheI/maxresdefault.jpg 

As usual, there are people who are so sure of the correctness of their beliefs (ones that I myself held until I got religion, so to speak) that they aren’t even willing to give Max Townshend a hearing. Their loss. As I said, Max answers the question of why simply securing a loudspeaker enclosure solidly in place is NOT "the answer". If you aren’t interested in learning (and hearing) why that is so, well, why are you even reading this thread? Just to bask in your own self-anointed smug superiority and self-righteousness? No offence intended.

Are there people who are still using spikes under speakers? When I first got into the hobby not long ago one of the first things I did was to purchase  isoacoustic footers, two speaker sets and two hockey puck sets for TT. Now I have two seismic pod sets also and am trying out some free resilient mounts, check those out too. This was all done after buying brass cones of which are in a drawer. I guess still-points are next. 

Personally, I think the pods are crazy and a total waste of money. The speakers should be mounted on quality heavy speaker stands filled with shot or atabites and spiked to a solid concrete slab floor. Blue tac should be added between stand and speaker bottom. to do anything else is overkill and not necessary. Springs under a turntable is also another obsurd idea. Why bother when you can just buy a Linn Sondek with a sprung suspension system....otherwise, a mass loaded turntable on a suitable turntable wall mounted shelf that is affixed to a solid concrete wall should suffice for vibration control.

don't believe me? - put a heavy dumbbell on your acoustics - the sound will deteriorate - it will become jammed ...

However, just like isolation produces a decolouration by helping to limit cabinet resonances, placing a tuned mass damper with absorbtion materials atop of the cabinet will realise equally a significant increase in performance.

@serjio - I know you didn't mean speaker cabinets, and your discussion has merit, I am just trying to point out one exception.

Tuned Mass Damper, some of you might want to look that up, those of you holding onto rigid methodologies. You can be stuck in the methods of the past, but once you have tasted superior engineering practices, make no mistake, you will go to church (so to speak).

@pengun & clearthinker - boing boing sounds abso-flaming-lutely glorious!

I was able to borrow some for a month while a friend was building his house. I was blown away. I build custom speakers. So I got out my accelerometer to measure vibrations of the cabinets. With and without were VERY different in the cabinet vibrations. And it was very audible. ONLY cost prevents me from purchasing my own. YMMV, but I git measurable results to back up what I was hearing in my own system.

The simplified version of how the platforms work is simple ... They find the acoustic zero of the speakers vibrations. Neither coupling or decoupling from the floor. They end up acoustically floating, without vibrations affecting the speakers any longer. It works.

Nobsound springs are under $30 per set of four. They are not damped, and this results in some amount of resonant behavior coloring the sound. It is however almost always low level enough to not be noticeable- except when compared to Townshend which are optimally damped and therefore have a huge reduction in coloration and greatly improved natural timbre.

My speakers, amp, turntable, everything went from Cones to springs to Pods and Podiums. The improvement at each step was not subtle. Not at all. I dare say no one would prefer Cones to Nobsound, and am even more certain everyone would prefer Podiums to Nobsound- or any other undamped plan spring. I can totally believe you were blown away. Try Nobsound, they are not on the level of Townshend but you will be shocked how good they are for the money.

I didn't like the floating nature pods for floor standing speakers, and I have my turntable on a Townshend platform which works great.

For speakers however, I put mine on top of solid, multi layer platforms that drain the internal speaker vibrations/distortion to the floor, in my case a suspended wood floor where this type set up works best because of how the platform drains the noise to the floor. You can also put the platforms on top of roller blocks for more isolation if you want, but then you get that floating effect.

Check out Symposium audio - they have different levels of platforms and you can talk to the owner Peter about your situation - he is very helpful and sensitive to budgetary needs and probably has come across your exact situation in his 29 years in the business doing the same thing. 

With ALL respect guys, until you have measured and learned with an accelerometer and saw EXACTLY what happens, and is happening, you are just GUESSING. You can easily see what mass loading does, as opposed to draining energy with spikes. You will also learn all of the hundreds of materials used to damp or eliminate vibrations, every single foot ever designed to be placed under equipment, imparts it's own frequency range vibrations. Ebony, lead, brass, carbon fiber, etc, etc. When you place those vibrations into the RTA, you can watch how the frequency moves and corresponds with different treatments to damp or eliminate. This is ALL they do! Impart their own effect on the associated equipment they are under.Now ... someone said you are not trying to eliminate vibrations ... bull crud. If you could eliminate all vibrations ( caused by everything, not just airborne), then you would hear ONLY the speaker itself.
But to do this, you need to neither fully dampen, nor fully drain, nor simply move the measurable vibration frequencies up or down. The perfect idea would be to make the frequency basically go to "zero", neither damping or draining ( decoupling or coupling ) , but to essentially float in a place with no vibrations. It is a matter of finding the product weight, and matching it to the spring rates which equal dead float center of everything. It should neither rock back and forth like a pendulum, nor be unmovable (coupled), but should settle only once or twice and stop dead. There is an exact formula for this for every exact weight. The Townsend platforms cover a targeted freq range for average weight, and do almost perfect. The ONLY way to get better would be to have the platform made to exactly the weight of your speakers to the ounce. This is why I go through a huge custom spring company that makes springs to your specs. This allows me to have perfect suspension for every component or stack of gear. Several hundred dollars for 8 springs, but better than THOUSANDS of dollars!Townsend platforms are science taken from the electromagnetic field of study. Many research labs have either magnetic flotation machines, or air propulsion isolation machines. These do essentially the exact same principle .... Floating the component where there is an acoustical zero of vibrations. It is been around forever, and nothing new. Max just figured it out first for audio.You can naysay all you want ... but they work exactly as advertised and are NOT more audio snake oil.  How would I know this? Having custom spring rates made for my own gear after seeing Max's, and finding out they work better than anything you can dream up outside of science. Which is all that matters here. Opinions need to educate.

NOTHING drains vibrations. Only moves them in the frequency band. NOTHING can drain them away to nothing. Measure with an acellerometer and you will see this is correct. Heavy wood and lead stands and footers just change the frequency some. This is ALL they do.
ONLY finding zero frequency effects can do this ... make vibrations nothing. Townsend platforms do this. I have measured this .... not guessing.

@millercarbon, you are dead on sir!

Thats all fine and dandy except springs do not provide an exit strategy for airborne vibrations or turbulent air nor do they collect and disperse internally generated resonance from transformers motors, active or passive devices..In fact if left alone this interference will accumulate further and become an unwelcome passenger of interfering energy traveling on top of the music. Keep looking.
Tom

@flaxxer - Not all things measurable are audible, and not all things audible are measurable. It's a good start, but not the be all and end all.

When I say "draining" vibrations, of course they don't disappear, they dissipate through multiple levels within a platform, one being foam, which absorbs some of it and vibrations then go from the platform to the floor (which is why wood is better than concrete or other hard surfaces).

The speaker needs to have maximal contact with the platform to be effective - no spikes, discs or whatever in between. Like I said, you can put pods or spikes under the platform for more isolation, but the key with speakers is eliminating internal vibrations, just like with amps and phono stages, CD players, etc.

The improvement in sound from the speaker with the platforms was immediately apparent. Better clarity and separation by eliminating the noise created by vibrations. Better separation of voices for example, more precise bass response, and more like live music.

An alternative to pods are roller blocks which have ball bearings inside housings that move in the xy plane giving things on top of them the floating effect like springs do, but with no resonance and no adjusting, so long as it is in the weight range for them to be effective. Because the top of therm are flat, they also do vibration transfer, and having them be on top of wood is optimal.

This sure is getting interesting and thanks for everyone’s input.

Sam

With the Podiums (or Pods) in place, the loudspeaker enclosure does not move in response to the moving mass of a woofer reproducing a very low frequency,

“For every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction”
Newton’s third law of motion.

The optimum outcome is for the spring material to deform to accommodate the cabinet vibrations which would normally be transferred into the substrate and anything connected to it. Leaving the speaker’s center of gravity to remain as close as possible to a status quo.

The materials and geometry of coiled compression springs lends itself to broad frequency isolation with a broad amplitude capacity in almost all directions. It’s been used in all manner of vehicles for quite some time.

Possibly one improvement that could be made is to allow them to spin on a bearing as they compress and decompress. Using multiple springs will result in friction as they each try to twist on different axis at the core of each spring. It would be interesting to discover if springs using the same rates wound in opposing directions make any difference in the manner in which they attenuate vibrations?

There is a way to drain cabinet resonances, using a TMD (tuned mass damper) as used in skyscrapers that help mitigate movement during high wind. Using a mass and a material that will deform under loads, so that the mass remains stationary as the cabinet vibrates.

 Samgar2@

Sorry for the late reply. The Liszt speakers had their spikes removed but the outriggers were left in place. Worked well.

@flaxxer, the use of paragraphs may persuade more folk to wade through your pages of text...Oh and would you mind NOT SHOUTING. 

Hello,
What people forget about isolation for your speakers not only helps prevent unwanted vibration to the floor which ends up helping everything especially your TT.  It also helps prevent the vibrations from getting back to your speakers from the floor. Subwoofer waves travel over 50 ft. No one needs that getting back into the speakers. The Townshend products are going to be awesome once integrated into the system. If you feel they are a little to complicated you can use your outriggers with IsoAcoustics. You replace the spikes with the IsoAcoustics feet. Martin, PSB, and a few others are using these on their speakers for good reason. The store where I buy gear from sells the whole line and let you try before you buy so you can hear the diff on your equipment. https://holmaudio.com/
Once I get my TT back from repair I am excited to try out some of the TT isolation platforms. Most likely the ZaZen. The bigger line Delios is better but it’s $600. I do believe Townshend has some type of trial period too. 

What really happens is no matter what you do the whole room - floor, walls, ceiling, and everything in it - winds up vibrating like crazy. But the thing is, even if it doesn't travel 50 ft or whatever, even if it doesn't travel at all it is still a problem. Because if the speaker makes the floor vibrate, even if only right underneath the speaker, then those vibrations inevitably travel right back up into the speaker. 

Max has video clearly showing this is exactly what does happen. The smallest speaker cone movements, the ones that reproduce subtle ambient information, are easily swamped and smeared by this much vibration. This is why Pods and Podiums work so well. Eliminate this subtle vibration, reveal this subtle information. It really is that simple. 

@millercarbon ... hear ye, gear ye! LOL
I agree totally.

I just recently replaced Isoacoustic Gaias under my Magico A3's with the Townshend Podiums, and I must say, the results have been astonishing.  The bass is much tighter, faster and articulate; in contrast -- and I have to admit that I did not really appreciate this before making the change -- the bass was kind of bloated and did not have the degree of control that I now hear.  More importantly, though, the mid-range and high frequencies became much more open and detailed, and with that, better imaging and a much improved soundstage.  It's as if I just substantially upgraded my speakers.  The Townshend Podiums work, and they work extremely well.