Dear @
pani: 23+ years ago I was looking how to improve the quality sound on my analog rig. I owned and own two Denon TTs: DP-75/80 and Technics SP-10s.
I took the alternatve to change both Denon TT plinths and instead to following using the wood plinths I start to use one green marble and one beige onyx plinths ( around 45 kg each one and beatiful looking " guys ". I still have it. ).
The overall quality sound improved by a wide margin. Two years latter I decided to try a new knd of plinth and the new plinth was: USE NO PLINTH AT ALL, mounting the tonearm in a separate " tower/pillar ".
Again it was an improvement but not so big as before with the stone plinths.
For me/in my case was there when the overall " naked " concept rised and years latter I brought here at Agon and other forums in the net.
I used in the SP-10s too.
The theory behind the Atmasphere pst is right and tha is not under discussion but try to help yu in your question.
Till today I never heard and never was and is any concern that with a separte tonearm mount tower the quality sound performance losted some kind of coherence or well-timed coherence presentation.
In my case I had no choice for Denon/Technics TTs, I was " obligated " to take the naked " road " that IMHO works really good it does not maters what theory say.
I think that as everything in audio exist trade-ffs here, at one side is the theory and at the other side the sound qaulity level performance in the non-plinth alternative.
Till today I did not and don’t read it a real/fact through listening scientific tests that confirm any single advantage to that theory. So leave it at rest and decide what you can think is your preference: though your audio distributor you can listening both alternatives and decide about.
Btw, It’s easy to measure if the frequency response, phase and amplitude of the TT ( plinth/motor/platter spinning, etc. ) is exactly the same at the tonearm directly because every kind of " joints " where those vibrations has to travel till achieve the tonearm it self can change.
Kuzma, between others, choosed to design some of its TT models with an external tonearm tower and I never read any customers compliant about.
In audio be too dogmatic not always gives the better results.
Btw, that youtube link can say many things but can’t prove something scientific. Seems to me that the TT in that video is a Technics that with its own plinth is really " terrible " and with that Sonus cartridge/VPI the resonant frequency is around 4 hz. That Technics plinth and the resonant tonearm/cartridge frequency are against in between.
My opinion is try to mantain the phono cartridge as aisle as we can, at maximum of the posibilities. Any kind of vibration/resonance produce and increment many diferent kind of distortions that goes against the quality sound level.
An external tonearm moun ting tower is a way to aisle ( in some ways. ) the phono cartridge and does not maters if the external power is seated in a different platform that the TT.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Dear @lewm: """
my opinions on this issue are well known; no point repeating myself. Others can think differently.... """
are those opinions based or with foundation on first hand experiences in your own audio system through several tests with and with out same tonearm/cartridge?
If yes I would like to hear your confirmation about and trade-offs you experienced and if not maybe is time to have the stand alone tonearm tower to confirm or not your opinions, this could gives more value to those opinions. Don't you think?
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear @lewm: """
It's remarkable how durable is this controversy over separate vs linked and how vehement are the opinions, one way or the other. """
Either, by theory or real tests, some way or the other almost all of us talk about " colorations/distortions " .
The " theoretical " people ( like you ) can't prove those theories with out first hand real tests/measurements and the ones ( like me ) that already tested and made several comparisons in between TT integrated arm pillar and stand alone tonearm pillar neither have scientific measurements of what we are listening or not but the " testers " have a clear adevantage over the theoretical gentlemans: we can attest a " better/lower colored " quality sound level that for example you have not and can't imagine.
As I posted for a theoretical opinion can has value it needs first hand experiences in each one own audio system, if not your opinions are just: useless.
Now, is't easy to measure ( through a scientific methodology. ) the theoretical " additional colorations/distortions " you, atmasphere and the theoreticals ones supports?, I think not for any one.
We have to think how to aisle the specific " colorations/distortions " created in specific by the sole integrated arm pod variable and the stand alone arm pod variable against all the other variables ( colorations/distortions. ) involved in the end result when the sound waves comes in the air and goes through our ears.
Who of you can make the measures that with certainty.
So and till today the best is to listen it as some of us did it or still do and with all respect for people like you just forgeret on this audio subject.
There are people like you that are willing to try it and some of them will try through the time but you are not even willing to try but always give the same theoretical statement with no single fact that prove it and that's why I posted is useless and with low value opinion.
I know, any one is free to give his opinion: valid or not. So you can go on with.
Anyway, stand alone tonearm pod or not in both " configurations " exist distortions of many kind. Wich configuration puts us nearer to the recording?, this's the question and main subject. No one is the Bible's boss.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Dear @atmasphere: """
This is actually easy to measure! We do it with a silent disk, cut on our lathe, which is much quieter than normal vinyl. All we have to do is place the turntable in a room with speakers playing loudly and then measure the output of the cartridge. The fact that turntables that employ a separate arm pillar are more noisy then 'tables with a proper plinth is easy to see on the 'scope. """
Good that for you it's easy task. I think that your measure is not exactly what happens during playback because you did not use a recorded LP and we want to know what it's happening during playback in real day by day listening conditions.
Now,: speakers playing loudly?. 95 db, 90 dbs, 100 dbs? why only playing loudly? We need to have information as day by day real as we can not over diferent conditions.
Even playing " loudly " maybe that stand alone tonearm pod was not the " ideal " one because its choosed build material, weight or damping or whatever.
Cartridges are all very sensitive are a microphone with high sensitivity but each cartridge is affected in diferent way for sound waves or any other kind of vibrations/resonances and depends in what tonearm are mounted.
There are several variables that are inside the whole subject. The other gentlemans have too many questions as they posted.
Yes, is very easy but in reality what you did it can't gives to us " one and for all " the scientific answer. Maybe you have to reset the methodology and take in count not only those variables we posted here but many more that has influence in the whole subject.
Good that you can take this task because " one and for all " can gives us the answer we are looking for.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear @atmasphere /friends:
""" The entire arrangement has to be by definition rather dead, else sounds in the environment can affect the cut............
IOW, it was not suitable for actually telling if our cut was truly silent, set up in this fashion.
. I hope this gives you some idea of how easy it is to measure this!.....
Now I understand this is bad news for some and as a result there will be those that think that somehow these principles don't apply to their machine. It is true that I did not make the measurements on anything other than our lathe,...............
if the arm is anchored to a point that is able to move with respect to the platter. ..........
I think that we have a problem here:
your target in that tests and your " intuitive " premises are way diferent to our audiophile main targets and premises. So, your conclusion is not conclusive about what we want to test UNDER DAY BY DAY LISTENING ANALOG EXPERIENCES and that's why for you is so " easy to measure ". Your methodology can't fulfill our audiophile targets and premises and can't help us because the your " vision " of the whole subject is overall limited.
No, your news are not bad news for me, your news does not affect me in anyway because diferent targets.
Audiophile DAY BY DAY LISTENING SCENARIO means ( between other things. ):
- DD and BD TTs in the audio system.
- Diferent tonearms and cartridges.
- Some systems using tube technology and other SS one.
- Diferent type of speakers that " dissipate " sound in diferent ways. Some of the systems using subwoofers.
- Normally we don't listen continuously at 95 db SPL. We use variable SPLs even in the same system.
- Each system room " dissipate sound waves in different ways. We have not an " anechoic " room treatment. We just have a decent rooom treatment and not always.
- All of us listen everykind of music. Jazz, classic, pop, country, rock, etc, etc. where each one of kind has different needs ( SPL ) with sound waves that are different.
- No one of us has a dead silent platform, plinth or the like.
and I can go on on many other " premises " we have to take in count, even to use the " right " external tonearm pod/tower
So, I think that we want " more " than your " easy measures ". In my case I want to know where is the SPL ( if exist. ) umbral where the theory start to reflect the " damage " creating ADDITIONAL colorations/distortions because the non-integrated TT tonearm approach.
For me seems not so " easy " but the other way around: huge complexity.
Anyway, it's obvious that even that you could considered an audiophile your self we are way different or just ignorants about. At least me.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Dear @pani: Now that you have several opinions on your main subject thread: which was your choice?
By the pictures that italian TT design looks beautiful/gorgeous ( Italians are very special people on good looking design, anything. ), especially the one with the stand alone tonearm pillar that between other advantages gives you the opportunity to mount 2-3 tonearm/cartridges at the same time in the TT.
Today, other than audiophiles, I can't think that all the TT/tonearm manufacturers that choosed the stand alone fashion are just wrong.
Till today no one over the net proved it, no real facts.
So, the " ball " is in your " field " now.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Dear @pani : """
who think like me including an audio designer... """
well, with all respect to him and you he is not a regarded TT/tonearm designer and for his posts neither an audiophile.
Please read the @halcro last post.
Btw, good that you was decided to know what to buy before you posted this thread. Tell us how good performs when received because looks very good.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear @atmasphere : """
Actually this is not true. """
You are totally wrong because I'm asking for normal day by day listening enviroment in real home audio systems, I don't care about lathe or about your self targets. YOUR TARGETS ARE NOT THE AUDIOPHILE TARGETS. GOT IT?
"""
As previously mentioned, I have explained this twice already in this thread. I suggest you re-read my initial posts """
YOU EXPLAINED NOTHING WE AUDIOPHILES WNAT IT TO KNOW, so useless.
If you want the right questions to you then comeback with the " overall solution " that can gives us what we want to know not what you want to know or what you want to support, you are biased to your soluition/targets that are diferent from what we want to know.
Enough, you are in a way different " tv chanel ".
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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Dear @atmasphere : """
but right now I am thinking that you have an monetary investment that prevents you from doing so. """
Wrong again, my very little investment has nothing to do with. This discussion is not a contest, here no one wins but all, so as usually in you don't try to win but to understand to some of us that in my case have a higher ignorance level than you.
As some others posted you are intuitive more than scientific in this subject.
No one of us audiophiles have a lathe at home but normal TTs but because in your simple " test " you say that appears a " coloration " then in any inferior/normal home audio system things must happen too. That's what you infere but can't prove it.
"""
Actually this statement is false as well. """"
could be but I think that no audiophile in this thread know you as a " well regarded " TT/tonearm designer/manufacturer. Please no ofense intented, for me even what you posted still no well regarded TT/tonearm manufacturer at least not at the same level as you are as tube elctronic designer/manufacturer.
Anyway, thank's for your reply.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R. |
Dear @atmasphere : According with my very high ignorance level there are some things that goes against your " scientific " test:
- as @halcro posted one of your premises is that exist movement in the stand alone pillar. Why don't choose as premise that the pillar has no movement? what could happen at your scientific/theory?
- I have a premise too in my subjective " science ": that the holding cartridge tonearm must be aisled from the self TT " movements/vibrations " and air borne effects in order that those non tonearm " movements " can affect/produce additional distortions/colorations to the cartridge performance.
- according with your science my premise go against your theory because the tonearm has to vibrate exactly as the TT platter. So, if we have an integrated tonearm pod that does not vibrates at all then is wrong and add " colorations " by the cartridge.
- according that we need that the integrated tonearm pod/base has those same platter bearing vibrations. So, a well damped/dead one integrated arm pod is wrong and is wrong because till today exist no TT dead silent beairng platter.
- So, I infere from your science that it's better not to aisle/fuly damps the integarted arm pod. I don't know what I'm missing here but I'm not convinced that is better if vibrates evenly with the platter that if that arm pod stays deadly.
- other of my premises is that the cartridge must be " aisle " from vibrations as we can. Now, the ideal scenario for a cartridge ridding job is to make that job with no single vibrations, this is imposible to have/exist.
- starting from that ideal scenario next step could be to put at minimum all non-self vibraions that affect the cartridge job.
The bearing platter vibrations always affect the overall cartridge job as the tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency and the own tonearm additional vibrations and the feedback of all those vibrations and now we " need " that the integrated tonearm pod stays vibrating evenly with the bearing platter and this represent additional vibrations/colorations that are produced when in touch with all the other already generated vibrations because here exist a delay time on those same kind of vibrations and its amplitude are not exactly the same.
My God !!!!!!
We need additional integrated arm pod vibrations. Why and external dead silent arm pod is different of a dead integrated arm pod?
is it better/worst a dead silent arm pod integrated or not? or is better the one that vibrates evenly with the bearing TT platter with all those additional vibrations I talked about??
For you and the other advocates to integarted arm pod things are so " easy " but for me and other gentlemans are not. Please re-read all the @fleib posts where I agree with.
Vibrations or dead silent?, that's the question.
Regards and enjoy the music,
R.
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