Talk but not walk?


Hi Guys

This isn't meant to start a fight, but it is important to on lookers. As a qualifier, I have my own audio forum where we report on audio issues as we empirically test them. It helps us short cut on theories and developing methods of listening. We have a wide range of systems and they are all over the world adding their experiences to the mix. Some are engineers, some are artist and others are audiophiles both new and old. One question I am almost always asked while I am visiting other forums, from some of my members and also members of the forum I am visiting is, why do so many HEA hobbyist talk theory without any, or very limited, empirical testing or experience?

I have been around empirical testing labs since I was a kid, and one thing that is certain is, you can always tell if someone is talking without walking. Right now on this forum there are easily 20 threads going on where folks are talking theory and there is absolutely no doubt to any of us who have actually done the testing needed, that the guy talking has never done the actual empirical testing themselves. I've seen this happen with HEA reviewers and designers and a ton of hobbyist. My question is this, why?

You would think that this hobby would be about listening and experience, so why are there so many myths created and why, in this hobby in particular, do people claim they know something without ever experimenting or being part of a team of empirical science folks. It's not that hard to setup a real empirical testing ground, so why don't we see this happen?

I'm not asking for peoples credentials, and I'm not asking to be trolled, I'm simply asking why talk and not walk? In many ways HEA is on pause while the rest of audio innovation is moving forward. I'm also not asking you guys to defend HEA, we've all heard it been there done it. What I'm asking is a very simple question in a hobby that is suppose to be based on "doing", why fake it?

thanks, be polite

Michael Green

www.michaelgreenaudio.net


128x128michaelgreenaudio

Showing 3 responses by bill333

I've been tuning for many years, so maybe it would be helpful to some of the people reading this if I talked a little about my own experience. Like most everyone else, I got started with tuning because I was looking for better sound. I felt that what I had was ok, but I wanted more. I began with acoustical treatments and then moved into stripping down components, using minimalist wires, and tweaking the electricity. At this point in time, I really can't NOT tune a system. How do you listen to a component with its chassis top on when you know that removing it will give you a sound that is so much more dynamic and open? How long can you look at a capacitor strapped down with a plastic zip tie, when you know that freeing it will give you a three dimensional, holographic soundstage? If it's me, the answer is - not long at all. :)

As my systems became more finely tuned over the years, I began to notice that recordings I remembered as all sounding reasonably good differentiated into a large group of recordings that sounded spectacularly good, and a small group that didn't sound anywhere near as good. What I also observed was that if I put together two equally good sounding systems from different components, the same recording could sound wonderful on one system and ho-hum on the other. It wasn't the recording. At this point, I could have done one of three things: One, dial the system back until all recordings sound just ok. Two, live with the tuned in system that does most recordings extremely well and ignore the recordings that aren't so great. Or three, tune the system to the recording.

I'd like to say that I've been in camp number three all along, but that isn't true. Opening a system up by stripping down components, using good platforms and good wire, careful setup of speakers and room treatments, and releasing tension from the electrical will get you to spectacularly good sound. But tuning to the recording is really a different skillset. It's the same tools and techniques, but you need to understand what sonic effect each move has and then put together the right combination to get yourself where you want to go. With so many variables involved, it was really more than I felt I could do.

What changed things for me was the discovery of the Audolici A25M. The Audolici is an integrated EL34 tube amp that makes about 30W per channel. It's a lovely sounding amplifier even untuned, but what really sets it apart is its ability to be tuned to the recording with wooden blocks under its chassis. What this means is that recordings that had sounded distant, unfocused and uninvolving can be tweaked into sounding beautiful in just a few minutes. And the spectacular recordings sound just as spectacular as ever, with their own settings. Essentially, what had been a complex process involving many different parts is now reduced to an adjustment on a single component.

In practice, I find I don't actually need to retune for every CD I put on. Many recordings will sound at least good to very good with the same block setting under the amp. But when I put on something that has a distinctly different recorded 'key', I'll know it inside of 10 seconds, and I adjust the blocks until I get the sound I know was in there. :)

I know there will be people who read this and have no interest in going down this road. Believe me, there's no judgement. Every person needs to decide for themselves what great sound is, and how far they're willing to go to get it.  I'm just telling you about what has worked for me.


@prof 

"bill333 can you give us a non-mystical, technical explanation for how removing the chassis top of a component would cause those audible differences (or releasing of the capacitor)?"

I have no technical explanations for this, and no interest in finding any. There may be people out there who enjoy observing scientifically unexplained phenomena and constructing theories to fit them, but that's not the hobby I'm engaged in. I'm trying to create great music listening experiences. Simply put, I don't see how having a well explained system is going to give me better sound. OTOH, if you have practical ideas on how to get better sound from my system, I'd be glad to hear them...

"(BTW, I’ve had the top off some of my equipment before - pre-amps etc - for different reasons and...no...it did not change the sound)."

There could be any number of factors involved in your not hearing a change in sound. Without being there to hear for myself, and subsequent experimenting with your system and room, I really can't say what happened. The most likely explanation is that some component or components in your system are closed down to the point that upstream changes can't easily be heard.

But let's get to the point of your post. You're not here to help people get better sound. Having read through your posts on this thread, I can't find a single instance of you doing or saying anything that would help another person improve their system. You're here to cast aspersions on anyone whose methods who don't fit into your mental model of how things work. Let me be clear in saying that my experiences are my own, and are posted here in the hope that others can benefit from them. These are things that have worked for me. If you, or anyone reading this, tries these methods and benefits from them, I am genuinely happy about that. If you choose not to try, that's ok too. But I have no interest in trying to fit my experiences into your dogmatic belief system.

“As the millennium turns, science seems in many ways to be treading the weary path of the religions it presumed to replace. Where free, dispassionate inquiry once reigned, emotions now run high in the defense of a fundamentalized "scientific truth." As anomalies mount up beneath a sea of denial, defenders of the Faith and the Kingdom cling with increasing self-righteousness to the hull of a sinking paradigm. Faced with provocative evidence of things undreamt of in their philosophy, many otherwise mature scientists revert to a kind of skeptical infantilism characterized by blind faith in the absoluteness of the familiar. Small wonder, then, that so many promising fields of inquiry remain shrouded in superstition, ignorance, denial, disinformation, taboo . . . and debunkery.

@geoffkait  +1  +1  +1