02-18-08: Dan_ed said:
"Mass, yes. Isolation, not so much."
Different correct answers to the same physics question.
My question is, what happens if you deaden structure-born resonance, but what about airborne vibrations? The arm and cartridge, unless islotate, are subject to performance degradation if not protected (isolated).
Dave |
I use a non-suspended Pro-ject RM10. It comes with its own highly effective isolation base. The plinth and platter are high-mass and the bearing has magnetic repulsion to minimize friction caused by the high weight of the platter. It has a very good 10" carbon fiber arm that mates well with highly compliant cartridges.
Ease of set up is one big factor why I like the non-suspended approach. My dealer moounted the cartridge and all that I had to do was level the isolation base and then level the TT itself. I was in business in just ten minutes. I'll not have to worry about springs sagging or anything bouncing around when I'm cueing the arm.
Oh yeah, my TT sounds great.
Dave |
Have you got any clues as to what you would like? You mention a substantial budget. What do you already have, if anything? What would you like to improve and what do you listen to regarding genre and quality of your pressings?
Dave |
Keith,
That budget warrants some travel,if necessary, to some of the best dealers in Asia. Plow through all the reviews that you can find. Stereophile and Absolute Sound have archived most of their reviews and there are several very good internet mags. I'd suggest rolling around in those for a week or two to see what tweaks your interest and then try to seek out dealers for the things of interest.
Also, if there are audiophile clubs in your large city you might visit one to see what everyone is using and perhaps hear for yoursel.
Dave |
Yeah, don't focus on the construction theory, just try to get somewhere that you can listen to a few in your price range and buy what strikes your fancy.
Dave |
Either design type will benefit greatly from a top drawer isolation device. You should plan a major hunk of your budget for such a device. Each level of isolation that you add raises the isolation at the cartridge pretty dramatically.
I can see this easily in my own system by rapping the shelf in my armoire with the stylus in a silent groove. I have to rap very hard to hear anything through the system. Next, when I wrap the isolation platform I can hear it more easily, but it's still highly muted. Finally, when I rap the plinth I hear it quite readily but the stylus still tracks.
If there's basement below you listening room, you might put in some extra support below the system and immediately around it. In a rental house, long ago, one 4X4 pole, stratically placed, did wonders.
Take your time, but we're really interested to hear what you finally do. This is a sizeable expenditure that warrant careful study.
Dave |
02-18-08: Dan_ed said:
"Here's my .02. Get the best table, arm and phono stage you can for now. You can always add a better platform and cartridge latter. If you're handy you can easily build a decent RCM for less than $100."
I have to disagree strongly with Dan_ed on this one. Even without springy floors, I believe that a good isolation platform adds an major measure of excellence for any table. The physics of adding stages of isolation is easy to demonstrate and hear, even without springy resonant floors.
Try the Disc Doctor manual record cleaning system before springing for a RCM. Like me, you may find the need for a RCM totally absent.
I think his budget of Aus$20,000 is a very substantial amount and it's reasonable to think that he can expect a complete system within that budget. I don't sense that he wants to do it in stages, but arrive with a VERY satisfactory setup quickly.
Dave |
02-18-08: Dan_ed said:
"From Sumiko's webpage
Massive 12lb. (5.4kg) sandwich construction acrylic platter virtually eliminated unwanted resonances.
I can see why you need some help with dampening. Dgarretson's VPI runs around 60-70 lbs. Maybe that's a little better, but I see a common theme with those who keep demanding that everybody who doesn't use complete isolation is missing out. For comparison, my table and stand together are well over 300 lbs. Hey, if it works for you."
What's Sumiko got to do with it? His budget is Aus$20,000. I'm sure there's a different SME distributor in Aus, if that's what you were looking at.
If isolation and mass isn't important then why do you have a 240 lb stand???
Nobody said one size fits all except you. I'm saying to allow for a stand or isolation base in the budget. He's talking about a sandpit now, so I think he understands the issue.
Dave |
Oh, you can hear it easily. I isolate my TT in a 100+lb armoire, loaded with probably 50 pounds of CD and spare cables and wires in the bottom and my control amp, universal player and TT in the top. All-in we may be talking about 200 lbs.
I've got a Korg MR1000 hard drive recorder that records in 1-bit DSD at 5.6MHz, twice SACD resolution. For the best recording quality I go straight from the phono preamp into the Korg with no speakers. When I record the same thing with doors open and the speakers on I get a less clear recording. With the doors closed and the speakers on the recording is almost as good as with no speakers.
The distortion presents itself as slight smearing or obscuring of detail. There's no outright mistracking. I haven't tried it at really high levels, merely the levels that I'd listen to music at (75 to 100dB at my listening position, with averages in the mid 80dB range).
My armoire and TT is 6 inches from the left speaker and about 18" from the right speaker, so there's a lot of energy right around the TT. After my little experiement I keep the armoire doors closed for all listening session and all recording is monitored with headphones. (I'm archiving my D2D recordings to DSD.
I've got 10" concrete floor and ceiling, so room-borne vibrations are not a big issue for me. Also, the mass of that armoire and all the stuff in it gives my turntable a nice headstart.
The demonstration is easy to replicate if you've got a high quality recorder and a way to isolate your TT from airborne sound waves. (Maybe move it outside the room door). The beauty of the recording is that you can set the level and then move things around quite a bit between test recordings, but when you play back you go very quickly from A to B to C, making it easy to hear the differeces.
Dave |
02-19-08: Piedpiper said:
"nice test Dcstep! Have you figured out a way to burn SACDs from your Korg?"
No, SACD is a controlled format; however, DVD-A has equivalent resolution and that works.
I have big ambitions for my Korg, but they're unrealized so far. The DAC is exceptional, but the analog inputs and outputs are a little noisy. You can listen through the noise, but I'd rather not. I thought I had a modder lined up to upgrade the input and outputs and add some internal shielding, but he's gotten tied up with other projects.
If I can find somebody to do the mods, then I'd like to do a bunch of comparisons and make those available to people on this forum and clubs and just cover the postage. The resolution is so incredible that you can actually successfully record the different in interconnects, for instance. As a club project, it'd be very interesting to record a bunch of cartridges, arms, etc., etc.
Any modder want to fix up my Korg??? Ric Schultz was who I had in mind. I may just wait him out, but I'd also like to start some projects.
Dave |
02-19-08: Dan_ed said:
"Dcstep, that's a test I can trust. I wonder if I can re-create this with my CDP and a recording that I have in both formats."
Taking into account that the CD likely has limits as compared to the LP version, you might switch back and forth at 100dB or so. Another test might be to listen on high quality headphones at a fairly loud level (say 90dB or so) and then turn on the speakers at 100+dB and see if you can hear a degradation.
The beauty of recording is that you can listen to your results on headphones so that the small differences are more apparent.
Oh, I just thought, if you've got an SACD or DVD-A of one of your LPs, that'd be a much better test than a CD. I'm just afraid that the congestion of the CD will mask the difference, because most LPs start out ahead of their CD versions. My experience with SACD and DVD-A however has been very positive.
Dave |
02-19-08: Dan_ed said:
"Maybe we should start a new thread. Seems like we're getting farther and farther away from Amfibius' topic."
Yes, but it's good to consider placement of the TT relative to the speakers, so I don't think that we hijacked.
I'd be happy to join a new thread if you'd like to explore this further. I'd be curious to hear of others' experiences in this arena. I've probably exhausted all I've got to say, but I could Copy and Paste.
Dave |
