Speaker shootout update; aggressive treble eliminating some (fairly?)

Brief update: the Dyn Evoke 30s have zero hours on them so I've been breaking them in a bit. I'm also doing some analyses of my room using the REW software and the UMIK mic. I cannot treat the room, obviously, in any elaborate way, but I can perhaps make some adjustments to give the speakers in my shootout a fair shot. Lots of listening ahead and a final decision, I hope.

@brownsfan I've figured out how to adjust limits, but am still wandering in the dark. Let's take this off-forum.

"Motions" were highly recommended for their AMT tweeter. Your hint makes no sense to me. What is "Elthos"? I'm finding it hard to grasp your point. Perhaps revise your comment to help?

@mapman Thank you. I felt it was owed. 

@jhills — You've just hit upon a great marketing slogan for audio: "Have a beer, not an Advil." Brilliant!

@mapman replace the [ dot ] with [.] and it works.

@jackd Nice selection. Let me ask you the killer question -- are they stable enough despite not being fill-able with sand etc.?

@kenjit Isn't there a village somewhere missing your contributions?

@helomech I think they’re very musical, with bass that easily rivaled the Focal 936’s, perhaps beat them for texture and control. They weren’t right for my room, for reasons described earlier.

@cd318
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I eliminated as much as I could and narrowed down to things which would not waste dealers' time, be something I could afford, and would best suit my amp and musical tastes.

I've listened to music for most of my 50+ years but only recently ventured into significantly higher quality sound; so, the challenge for someone like me has been to "educate my palate," so to speak. People rave about all kinds of speaker *types* (electrostatic, open baffle, MTM, etc.) and I had no idea how these things would sound, to my ears and in my room. I've learned a lot, and this forum and its members have helped me understand that there are many things that contribute besides the speaker — the room, most importantly, but more generally, my goals. I didn't really know my goals with any specificity in the beginning, and so it's easy to wander forever. Values drive everything else, so as the Delphic Oracle said, "Know Thyself." (Or, "Figure it out!")

Your point about not buying a speaker that *then has to be tamed* is exactly right; it took me into my 30's to stop buying shoes that pinched in the store but which I thought would "wear in." But I followed your logic with the Focals and the Martin Logans because I did not want to buy something wrong for my room, even if it could be "fixed." (Well, maybe or maybe not.) And returning those was hard because they were huge, I had to pack them up, I risked damage during shipping, and I had already put them on my Visa. Lots of reasons to say "good enough." But despite their very good reviews and many recommendations from smart people, they sounded wrong to me, and so I shipped them back. 

All this while I was conscious I could become impossible to please (the Princess and the Pea, audiophile edition). But now that I'm coming toward the end of the process I'm realizing that this has all been the "tuition of experience." I've educated my ears, figured out a lot about my room, and learned about various technical elements pertinent to speakers, amplification, and acoustics. The speaker choice is now more than just an expensive purchase, but the culmination of this aesthetic inquiry in service of music.

@b_limo Someday, we'll speaker swap for a month? Hmmmm.

@brownsfan Will sure let you know. The Orchid tube was all @decooney I just know how to take good advice.

@decooney You were the only one to suggest that a change of tube in my Orchid MHDT DAC might help -- and it has already. I ordered a TESLA 6CC42  ($24, Ebay) from Ukraine and it took a couple weeks to get to me but *right away* it took the edge off without sounding rolled off. Perfect tweak.

@glow_worm 
I couldn't agree more. My auditions ran the gamut:

Fritz Carbon 7 (ScanSpeak Textile soft dome)
Dyns (Cerotar soft dome)
Focal 936 (aluminum/magnesium)
Martin Logan Motion 60 (AMT)
Salk SS 6M (Beryllium)
Klipsch (titanium)

I learned a lot about what I preferred and also what worked in my room.

@mapman Yes, I may be approaching a good state. In order to stop fussing about audio, I may have to start investigating espresso machines and grinders. In other words, get a side-quest rolling to divert whatever OCD tendencies have been stirred up so that I can put a period on the end of this long audio sentence and just "enjoy the music," as the hackneyed phrase goes.

@lemonhaze71
I'm glad you say the low ceiling is not a disaster. A lot of things have sounded quite amazing, so perhaps I've just figured out where the low ceiling factor becomes a major issue, untreated.

I will try to learn REW, and HolmImpulse also. It's helpful to hear what you're using the software for, as I don't really know how to go about with analysis. This is probably why folks keep telling me to contact GIK — because there's a lot to this, and my fumbling around isn't going to get me that far. Still, knowing what I can use a *few* things the tools for to help my room (and speaker choice) a little bit is something I can seek out for the moment. I can at least seek to learn something about the major problems getting in the way of the test speakers' having a fair hearing. I have already taken some steps to soften the rooms reflection points, though I have not used measurement to know exactly how it helps. In this way, I am effectuating your comment about not trying to match "speaker to room or room to speaker is," though I am not yet on the way toward a scientific target.

Regarding this basement's floor, the room has a concrete floor with thin wall to wall carpeting, but also several thicker area rugs, other furniture (couch, leather chair, bed, wooden chest covered with a blanket), so there's quite a range of absorbtion and diffusion going on.

Regarding ceiling reflections, I may look into replacing the blanket and getting an OC73 absorber but I'd hope I can just mount it temporarily without getting into a DIY project at the start. Given that I'm not sure how far apart the speakers should be, ultimately, I'm not sure whether or not 4ft X 8ft will cover the correct area, though maybe there's a lot of wiggle room in something 8 feet across?

Bass traps — noted. I'm not finding any problems with the bass that make me want to set up traps *before* making a speaker choice. Still, if as you say there could be issues with frequencies *above* the bass which are affected by peaks or nulls, then some home-made experimentation may be in order. I appreciate you mentioning some targets to shoot for, such as 400 ms and T60. I bought a miniDSP mic that I can put at my listening position or at other places in the room (I obviously need to read about how to go about this), and see if I can figure out the software.

FYI, the rear wall is actually a built in bookshelves above cabinets that run the entire length of the room, with books of various heights all along. The two side walls are far away though I will confess that the speakers are not the same distance from either side wall. A bit hard to explain. My electrical setup has limits which necessitate this arrangement.

Anyway, super helpful post. Thank you.

@jtcf  Good luck with your search, too!

Someone else here was able to get to them and it works for me so I’m not sure what to tell you. In the past uploading links to Google photos has just been blocked so I have not tried it.
The suggestion about the other Martin Logans is noted but the reason I don’t buy used is because I cannot audition it. Once you buy an expensive speaker on the used market it is yours. You cannot return it. So that is a risk that I am not willing to take. I had read many good things about the motion speakers and I tried them out for a mere $20. I was able to get the focal speakers from a local used shop called the music room and those were free. So I’m not sure where the wisdom is in trying a speaker I have no idea how it’s going to sound without the possibility of returning. It’s the other side of the saying you get what you pay for. You get it and then you cannot give it back. Without auditions there is no chance that I would choose a speaker.

@audiokinesis Thanks for the additional knowledge. It helps me understand why some of these effects are happening, and even though it doesn't replace listening tests, it narrows down what is more or less likely to work.

@auxinput No.

FWIW, I'm using:

Speaker wire: Analysis Plus Oval 12 speaker cables

Coaxial Digital: AP Crystal Solo Coaxial

Interconnects: Analysis Plus Copper Oval

@lalitk Thanks for the suggestion. Will take a look. 
@erik_squires I've not hear the speaker above this by Fritz -- the Carreras, which @blimo liked so well. Curious about those, too, but I have a clock running and money down on a couple demo's so I need to rule out before deciding. I will admit that the detail of the AMT's in the ML's was pretty amazing. Instruments and rhythmic "hits" came out of the veiled darkness and that new information is hard to forget.

@erik_squires
Fritz not harsh at all. I’ve been throwing pillows in those places and in lots of others. Fritz was quite mellow, up top.
Focals mostly not harsh on most but could be on more than a few others.

@three_easy_payments Good to know. I picked those for audition partly because of personal recommendation, and price point, availability for free audition, and to experiment with different tweeters. Only after listening am I recognizing that I need to get away from bright treble. I want detail — but don’t want brightness. So, I’m finding the line between them. If I can get my hands on Harbeth or Spendor that might be good, too, but the Spendors I’ve heard (A series) are a bit too tame.

Thanks big greg. Will consider.
Limomangus -- I set an upper limit which helps delimit what I can afford and might try to listen to. (E.g., no Joseph Audio Pulsars for $8k., etc.) Not sure what gave the impression I did this in lieu of listening; that’s how I discovered the speakers were too bright. Maybe I’m missing your point.

@squeakI appreciate the advice to look into room acoustics. I think that will probably be something that I do AFTER I choose my speakers because I cannot change my room in time to make an altered determination about the speakers that I have for a limited trial basis.

@twoleftears I am open to that possibility and I am glad that I have the speakers here in the house. I *will* say that to my ears the speakers I have are a little bit rolled off in the treble and that is why I think I really do need to look further. The experience of listening to the other speakers showed me that there was more going on up top than initially expressed by those speakers. If I do not find something better in the treble, given the other parameters, then I will probably just be satisfied.

@decooney Thanks. It has been a great journey and the way I hear now is remarkably different than how I heard 4 months ago.

@jtcf That is a helpful experience and thank you for relating it to me. I had a great set of experiences listing to the Dynaudio speakers back in December/January (Evoke 10, 20 bookshelves) BUT... they were in an audio store and they were powered by very good and expensive amplifiers; I was also very new to listening critically. Hearing them in my house, and in a tower version, should be a good test of a bigger Dyn sound.

@auxinput
Appreciate your run down. It’s funny to think that the Salk’s tweeters have a " a slight upward tilt in the 22khz area." My hearing, I’d wager, doesn’t go above 14k at this point!

The Revels are interesting choices for trial. I have a good sub, so a pairing there might be interesting.

@mahgister I hear you about the room. I would not say this room is inherently bad but it is a factor. It’s an interesting chicken and egg problem -- how do you choose a speaker if the room isn’t tweaked vs. how do you tweak a room if you don’t have the speaker you’re tweaking it for? For me, the answer is that my room is good enough for speakers to sound pretty good in, and I’ve only got this room to work with. My hopes in this post are to relay what I’ve experienced with all those factors and hope that some generic issues (as mentioned above by auxinput) are likely to be present in a great variety of rooms, including my own.

@b_limo I asked Salk to burn the speakers in before sending. He ran them for 48 hours and I’ll probably run them pretty good for another 48 before really honing in.

The Dyns I’ve heard were pretty luscious sounding, and I’ve *never* heard them on an all tube system, not least one with mono blocks.

As for Be tweets, I’ve never heard them. Soft domes seems safe to me, but a little too safe. Let this middle aged guy drive a sports car to the grocery store and back! But seriously, I am seeking detail-without-harshness. That’s the target I hope to strike between the soft dome and ribbon/metal tweets I’ve heard.

@twoleftears — Good point. Some of what I’m listening for might rely on my own ability to attend properly to the speaker’s output. I have a scoresheet with all the important characteristics on it, so I will pay attention across the range of metrics (tonality, soundstage, dynamics, enjoyability, etc.) and will keep in mind that my stance in a particular situation (e.g. towards a soft-dome) needs to be appropriate.

Thanks for that elaboration, auxinput. At this point the key will be just to listen!

I don’t think I’ve heard a beryllium tweeter before.

vandersteens are on my short list. 

Are the fritz my favorite so far? That is a hard question because I have had them in my house and I’ve really liked them but they were certain things that other speakers did better in my house (soundstage, bass, both better in ML and Focal) and there were things that still other speakers did better in stores. But Fritz, overall, has been batting .400, as they say. It is hard to say. This is one reason I am getting the Dynaudio back into my house. Their towers are going to give me a sense of whether their soundstage plus soft tweeter competes, and the Salks are going to provide a window into mids, highs that may be new and attractive. We will see.

@djones I'll give a report!

@audioman58 oman I'm a big fan of the Finns and like the look of those speakers. Difficulty has been auditioning or I'd be trying them out.

@skypunk Don't let the door hit ya on the way out.

@grey9hound Amplification in OP (QS tube gear, Orchid R2R dac); source is CD or Node 2i streamer.
These factors have not varied, so at least they're constants.

@mesch  Waiting for the Salks. They're coming next week.

@aschuh Neat idea. Spatial audio is up the road.

@douglas_schroeder  Thanks for your thoughtful reply. Trying not to overemphasize burn in (I read your article); just trying to do some burn in and put it out of my mind. I may be sensitive to treble but my wife and a couple friends agreed there was over-brightness with the treble. And some speakers were not over bright.

The 6.5' (78") ceiling is correct and some of those tweeters are 40 inches off the floor — i.e., they're a mere 3 feet from the ceiling. As for "lower the speakers beneath ear level", that cannot work with towers so — that may eliminate towers. Though the Dyn towers will be 10" shorter, so that may ultimately be the factor which helps the most. I'll try splaying them. Thanks for the suggestion.

Yes, I have aftermarket power cords and speaker wire but didn't want to bog things down with too much description. Pangea cords for streamer, dac, preamp, and amp: Pangea Audio AC 14SE MKII and AC 9 SE MKII.

@julie People above recommended Kef and Tannoy as solutions to this very problem I'm mentioning but for you they caused the problem. Hmmm. And yes, Dynaudio are on my list.

Thanks for the summary, decooney.
Ceiling has a thick blanket across entire area of reflection points, same with front wall. No side wall reflecting problems. Floor is carpeted, by the way. To quote my OP, “No terrible reflection points; room not overly live or dampened.”

@furiouslyadrift34
Agree that ceilings likely a problem. Since I have been trying tweeters that have very little vertical dispersion (AMT) I'm now aiming to deal with what's overhead and in front. I've done the mirrors and laser pointer thing. Thanks for your reply. Very interested in Ascend Acoustics Sierra-2 line, but worry a tower is too much, regardless of tweeter type.

@audioconnection Thanks. Vandys are on my list. Just hard to get an audition. Same with many other speakers people mention.
@ djones51 I'd consider a minidsp but am hoping to keep things simple. Still, good to have a backup plan. Thanks.

@ baylinor Just measured it. 6.5 ft. Old bungalow basement. Not sure a tower can work, even with RAAL tweeters.

@audioguy85 I've not tried or auditioned wharfedales because of local availability. I'm not "fixated" on aggressive treble. I am learning. My process has been to try speakers which have a number of qualities I am looking for and one of those is detail. Reviews of what I have tried have said good things about their treble. I'm discovering that my situation possesses some factors which are making them aggressive. That said, I'm open to Wharfedales and appreciate your suggestion.

@electroslacker
I'll be curious if the specific type of beryllium tweeter in these speakers is implemented in a way that makes them bright. I've learned that certain judgments about the material of a tweeter can not tell the whole story; not only are there different ways of using beryllium, there are different ways of designing a beryllium (or any other kind) of tweeter.

@mapman
I've played with toe-in. I'll try lower stands for the monitors if they're bright. Right now, the brightness is a problem with towers. I've played a lot with the Fritz, but will again. If your suggestions can change them toward more detail in that upper end, that would be optimal, but I've had them in virtually every position, so…

@decooney Thanks. I will try those things. Interesting AMT history.
@auxinput I'm not qualified to partake of a burn in debate. I decided to get 100 hours on the speakers right away and they're now up to 200. Rather than wonder about it, I just did it.
@kenjit Do you know what the word "complaining" means? (Rhetorical question.)
@mapman This is really the first hifi rig (beyond mid-fi) I've put together and only in this room. LTA sounds interesting but I think I'm sticking with the amps and tubes I just bought. The speaker is the variable at this point. Trying the stands idea if necessary.
@limomangus I was using the shoe analogy recently for this topic with a friend. I no longer try to talk myself into shoes that aren't quite fitting in the store. I never wind up wearing them.

@mammothguy Thanks for the report about the Dyns. I've seen the Confidence series used (about 1/2 price at The Music Room) and I think they had the Contour series recently. Possibly of interest. I'm really starting to realize that I've just got too much energy, overall, in the room. Bookshelves or at least smaller towers are probably the way to go.

@oldhvymec
Great suggestions; thanks for a helpful post. I'm going to swap my seats out today and try your suggestions. Will avoid those wires, too, and the experiment with soft domes will continue, soon.

But if you're right about seating position, and if I do more work on the area acoustics, I may be able to get the detail I'm looking for from a well implemented non-soft dome tweeter, like the Be tweeter or perhaps an AMT. I'll have a nice trio of options to compare soon -- Fritz soft-dome bookshelves, Salk Be dome bookshelves, Dynaudio soft dome towers (shorter than ML or Focals).

@mapman 
QS = Quicksilver. For both preamp and amp. They're matched perfectly.
“tube R2R DAC” = MHDT Orchid DAC with tube.
NOS tubes purchased from Brent Jessee and carefully tested.
I think it's safe to say that upstream is ok.

@oldhyvymec. Tried your suggestion by bringing in a different listening chair which lowered my ears. It helped but speakers still too big, bright. Heading in a a different direction, now...learning my room plus eliminating problematic speakers as schematized here. 

@b_limo 
It's not at all clear that I'm sensitive to overly-bright speakers.
For one, if they're "overly bright" then *anyone* would be sensitive. So, it's not uniquely me. (And others hearing these in my room have also flinched at how bright they were.)
Second, the room has 6.5 foot ceilings. As many have deduced, this indicates that it may not be that the speakers are overly bright. It's the room is causing the issue.
All that said, a soft-dome may be the right thing for anyone who had my room.
Doing some hearing tests would be good. It very well could be me, but doing it outside of the strange acoustics of my room would help.

You wrote:

I really think though that they soft domes aren’t going to get you the detail that you are after. You will need to go Beryllium, amt, ribbon or planar. The nice thing about ribbon and planar is that the limited vertical dispersion will actually be beneficial for you with your lower ceilings.

My suspicion is really that *any* tower is probably overloading the room. I bet I could get any speaker and as long as it's right sized (and I'm sitting at the proper, lower, height) it could work.

In other words, I've put too large speakers, too high up in a room with low ceilings. I've created an acoustic challenge that makes it seem to be about the material the tweeter are made of — but that is just a small part of the equation. That is what a bunch of the really smart comments on this thread add up to, as I synthesize them.

Hi @ditusa — I have that right now. (At least an absorbent blanket.)
@djverne Thanks for the suggestion. I think my Quicksilver Monos will have the juice needed for the 88 db Dyns, but we'll see. No cost experiment.

@ditusa I'll try to parse what you're saying about why a blanket won't work. Not quite sure what you're saying.

Appreciate all the posts. Audio is such a tricky subject on which to compare notes. It's common wisdom to try things out in one's own home, yet every room is different. And the associated gear is different. So, when I utter a simple claim like "speaker A is bright" any number of factors *besides the speaker* can cause people to agree or disagree. Typically, it's more fun to throw out names of brands and models to solve the problem, but what turns out to be most helpful have been "rules of thumb" or basic questions which highlight the factor I might be missing — "How high is your ceiling?" or "How far apart are the speakers?" or "What kind of music are you listening to?"

For me, audio research has been most confusing when I've mistakenly assumed that technical details about gear design is the key to getting oriented. E.g., I've found myself researching "warm solid state" or "beryllium tweeters" or "front ported speakers" before appreciating that none of those things were relevant, yet. To assemble a system I've made a lot of leaps in the dark — toward my amplifiers, my DAC, my cables, etc. Once I was down to speakers, I figured it would be a simple matter of trying a few and choosing. But the room! The room. The damn room.

@cowan217 thanks for the roon tip. Harbeth keeps coming up as a name to try. I bought the Klipsch to have something to play with while my Salks were taking 7 months to build. (The virus shut things down in Michigan.) These Klipsch are great for the money but not in the league of anything else listed.

I don't know if this will work, but here's a diagram: https://tinyurl.com/y26272p4

@mapman Thanks. I'm saving the page for those stands. Your point about amps not being taxed to do the work (even if they're up to the challenge) is good advice and I'll factor it in.

I was very interested in Ohm for a while. (Kept seeing them on the Bosch TV show.) A lot of places that have home trial seem great but will cost more than a few $$ for return shipping. I tried the Martin Logans from Crutchfield rather than Music Direct or Audio Advisor because Crutchfield is free shipping to me and $10/speaker (I kid you now) for the return. Music Direct/Audio Advisor those speakers would be about $250 to ship back. 

@dougsat  Yes, it has been fun to try stuff! What's harder is uncovering one's own misconceptions and sometimes big blind spots. But it's all growth, so I feel fortunate. I have *some* notion that a smaller tower — a slim, shorter one like the Spendor or Dyn 30 — might work, but if not, I think the bookshelf option is a good place to head back to.

@mboldda1 Interesting proposition but I really need speakers I can try and return easily for free. With The Music Room in my backyard, I have an ever-rotating supply of very good things to try. I just drive up there and bring it home. 14 days later, if it doesn't work, I drive back. 30 minutes each way. Free, from start to finish.

@djones Gotcha. No headphones, please. I'll go with correction of some sort but first I need a best first foot forward with a speaker.

@brownsfan  Great points. The only things I'd add about the room is that there is a short entrance hallway along one sidewall which makes first reflection on the right side a non issue. On the left side, the side wall is also so far that first reflection isn't an issue. There is also a hallway in the rear which lets some energy out. In other words, it's not a hermetic box. I don't know what that does to the sound, but I thought I'd mention it.
I will try the flutter echo test, though in my situation, the sound from the speakers is more or less direct given what I've mentioned above. I'll go get the REW software.

@kenjit

The problem is @hilde45 isnt willing to have his speakers retuned but still wants optimum sound quality. You cant have it both ways.

The problem is you're not reading what I said. I am in the process of trying and returning. If you can't read what I've written, then don't respond to it. Otherwise, you're just scribbling graffiti on the forum wall.

@mapman Think you're right about bookshelves. I do have a REL sub. I'm concerned about the Dyns needing power but these towers are 88 db, though they are 4 ohm. That said, anyone who knows the Quicksilver Mono blocks will probably testify to their ability to drive a lot of speakers. At any rate, this will be a free experiment with local pickup and return.

Philll your system sounds wonderful! And I agree with what you said.

FYI, I hope to post report about the speakers soon. In the meantime I received the testing Mic that was recommended and I am looking into the Rew software.

@b_limo et al. Can’t really do the setup as suggested, as it’s a guest bedroom. Plus, set up along the long wall, I’ve got side wall reflections ping ponging all the way along. Short wall has a lot of recommenders, too, but I’m not ginning up that debate. I understand why you're saying it though, given the ceiling challenge I described.

I will be able to move this system in a couple years to a larger room (35 x 25 x 11 ft. ceilings) and the wife’s given me a green light to work with the architect to make the room set up for audio. At that point, I’d likely go for different speakers.

MC, how many speakers have you owned over the years? How many have you tried?

One and done. That’s so much easier. How nice to just know what right is. I envy those who are decades into this hobby who don’t need to research, ask questions, buy and try and return. Then again, I'm kind of enjoying this process. Which I suppose is why anyone already settled with a good system is even online to talk about it in the first place.

@twoleftears  Thanks. At 40" high, my concern would be about my low ceiling and the problems noted previously that other towers caused. So if VA is a suggestion worth making an effort over, I'd need to know why this otherwise fine speaker would *not* repeat the same problems.

Alright you bast*rds. ;-)

I’m going to test it out.

@corelli 
I've done a lot of homework, and have made a yeoman's effort trying to avoid things *doomed* to fail. Of course there is quite an expanse between "doomed" and "delightful." So, learning what my ears would like meant some experiment, some shipping, and some schlepping. This has got to be typical of most here. What I didn't appreciate sufficiently was the effects of a low ceiling on an otherwise very balanced space (in terms of reflection, absorption, etc.). Now that I've learned that, I'm in the zone. It's taken some time, but this is a hobby, so if it had been more efficient, it would have been less fun. 

@jackd It would be worth trying that. I’m suspicious that 6.5 ft ceilings will be a problem wherever the TOWER speakers are, but if I don’t try, I’ll never know. That said, I am NOT having a problem with any bookshelves I’ve tried in the room, so it may already simply be conclusive that (a) big towers won’t work, (b) bookshelves do work, and (c) small mini-towers might work.

@mapman See above. The tweaks are a good idea but not really applicable to towers. I’ll try that on stand mounts if I notice an issue. Listening with the speakers along the long wall almost creates a nearfield listening situation, by the way. But with towers, at least ones with AMT or Focal's metal tweeters, the ceiling interferes. I suspect it would interfere wherever I put a tower.
I have two sets of stands to work with are: 25" and 20". Thanks for the additional option!

@twoleftears Re: (2) you make a good point. Fritz’s tweeters are about 3 feet from the ceiling and the Martin Logans AMT tweeter is the same. But the energy coming out of those AMTs is probably greater and has a different dispersion pattern; I’m not sure how far the Focals were from the ceiling. Maybe it just comes down to the tweeter difference, given the room. No reason to exclude the VA’s, then — you’re right. There’s a store that carries VA stuff in Denver — Soundings. I might reach out to them if the current crop of possibilities dry up.

@dgarretson

I can’t believe the unending debate on whether equipment breaks in or the ear accustoms itself to equipment.

While that issue surfaced momentarily in this discussion, it’s not really been the focus. Thank god. I have no desire to see it debated here.

I experimented by changing the room orientation. It made no difference in brightness of the sound. Many people talk about the non-harsh qualities of the AMT tweeter  so I am not really sure where it is coming from if it is not the room. However, it doesn’t matter because those speakers, the towers, are going back.

 I would add that the soundstage and imaging along the long wall is perfectly fine and I cannot discombobulate the room anyway. This issue of long wall versus short wall is another one of those non-never ending debates so I do not want to invoke it here. Lots of arguments can be found on this threads on Agon, etc. 

So it’s on to the next thing!

@pelletfan I will, and Oldhvymec's suggestion to lower my listening chair has been factored in, too. Luckily, I have two stands to try out and between them I can get speakers firing appropriately.

Today will be about trying speakers at different distances and trying to learn the REW software. After learning how to do basic measurements, I'll begin to correlate what those measurements say with what I experience; hopefully, I can find a way to use the tool to optimize the trials.

@lalitk I'll take a listen. Though I'm not sure how people make sense of a speaker which is through different electronics, in a different room, via a microphone, through my laptop and headphones. What of the original sound survives all that?
Taylor speakers have a try at home possibility or not?

@squeak I've heard good things about NHT but I'm pretty sure a tower with that many drivers is one main cause of the problems I've experienced.

@mapman If deconey found that there is "a ramping response at 10k-15k with a notable peak," then perhaps we have identified a really important contributing factor, at least in *my* room.

@mapman mapman, here is a diagram: https://tinyurl.com/y26272p4
In front of my couch is a rug. No coffee table or other reflective surface.
Agree, it's not easy. And notice, when I asked him how many speakers he'd had…radio silence.

@twoleftears  Different tweeters in different Fritz lines — got it. He sent these to me to review, so I didn't really choose these.

@lalitk  The journey is fun. Except for the part where I'm reboxing! (That's today.) But a $20 return shipping charge for $3500 speakers that weight 80lbs each, boxed? I don't know how anyone can compete with that. Still, Crutchfield has what they have and that limits things. (But not a bad selection, really — Focal, ML, Revel, more.)