Definitely SS for rock and pop.
I might go either way for the rest depending.
I might go either way for the rest depending.
Showing 19 responses by mapman
Triode, Yes, maybe with Avantgarde's I suspect. GOtta hear a pair sometime. I have heard some other very good high efficiency horn based rigs that I am sure can do the job, at least with the right "tweaks". I would expect speakers like those to be quite sensitive to pretty much any change and perhaps more of a challenge to get tuned in properly than others. But once you do, and it stays there, I would expect exceptional results, though perhaps different still from most of what I am used to that sounds good to me with that kind of music in particular. |
Tubes have bass, but often characteristically different sounding than SS due to higher output impedance. More attention must be paid to matching tube gear all the way up the chain. Higher impedance speakers (true 8 ohm or higher, somewhat rare) are typically most desirable. Also bass requires more power exponentially at lower frequencies. Large tube amps needed are big, heavy expensive, and use lots of tubes and are harder to maintain properly over time (tubes can be expensive). The alternative is higher efficiency speakers to lower power needs. This is a good approach, But I have not yet heard a flea powered SET amp drive high efficiency speakers optimally (perhaps adequately) for rock music IMHO. I do believe it is possible, but even at shows, vendors tend to steer away from rock/pop music when demoing flea powered amps with HE speakers, probably for good reason. THis is not their forte IMHO, but I do believe it possible. Just a lot harder and maybe a lot more expensive to achieve similar results. I doubt tubes are needed to max out rock/pop due to the largely electronic nature of the music to start with, but it might make sense for fans of other forms of music and tube sound that also want good rock/pop. Soft clipping nature of tube amps provides the illusion of better bass for fewer watts, however the amp is often clipping, just in a manner that is less offending to listeners than most SS amps. |
Wolf, I guess my point in a nutshell is that all music can be done well either way if done right. Its what it takes to do it right that matters. The devil as usual is in the details. I find impedance matching considerations most important for electronic music. Most modern electronic music should sound tight and powerful, not loose and flabby. Acoustic music is a different matter. A little looseness and flabbiness there might actually sound good to some, but I am finding what works well for electronic music also works well for me with the rest. Power/efficiency matching and needs is a totally different and equally important issue. |
I run two different SS amps in two systems. My main system uses Bel Canto Reference 1000m Class D monoblocks, 500w/ch, with a tube pre-amp friendly 100 kohm input impedance (unbalanced), 1000 damping factor fed from ARC sp16 tube pre-amp driving large OHM Walsh speakers that are known to benefit from high damping. THe sound is fast, vivid, powerful and articulate at ANY volume with any music. About as good as it gets I would say ONce when the BCs were in the shop, I used my TAD 125 Hibachi monoblocks as a sub in their place. THese are 180w/ch SS and designed to provide tube like sound in a SS design. These have significantly lower damping and lower input impedance than the BCs. The sound is also quite good though not as much muscle and slightly less articulate in the bass compared to the BCs. The difference in sound corresponds exactly as I would expect from the differences in power and impedance ratings. You would likely not realize you were missing anything with the TADs unless you heard them in comparison to the BCs. THey still sounded really good, but not as good as the BCs. I also have smaller OHM Walsh speakers in my second system. These have smaller Walsh drivers that are not as challenging for an amp to get a vice like grip on the driver for optimum control, articulation, detail, etc. They work even better with the TADs. The TADs do have a lovely tonality in the midrange that I fancied compared to the BCs, I suppose part of their SS tube sound design. Just an example in my case of how these kinds of specs actually turned out to be useful in choosing gear that works really well together. |
"There are no speakers made that need an amplifier with a damping factor of over 40." Maybe. 40-50 was the minimum I was shooting for for my OHM 5 series 3 speakers that seem to benefit from higher damping. THe BC ref100m amps I went with and use have 1000 damping factor. WHen I first fired them up I thought to myself "what happened to the bass"? WHat happened was it was there as much or more than ever but also more tight, controlled, and articulate than ever as well. Definitely different than most bass I have heard elsewhere, either tube or SS. I've been running these for coming up for 2 years or so now and feel more than ever that I would not want to give up the bass I am getting now which is some the best I have heard anywhere in a home system to date. Atmasphere, of course my system no way shape or form resembles the type of system I know you advocate in line with your products. I have heard your amps as well and they were very good all around including bass. WHich is better? I don't know. In lieu of an a/b test having heard both at different times, I can say that they are much different and both good in different ways. |
Atmassphere, Maybe some semantics at work. When I say "tight", I mean it has body, definition, impact and I like to say it is "articulate" as well. I find I have to test bass using recordings of electronic music in addition to all the various acoustic types because I like it all. For me, I think electronic music ups the ante a bit for really good bass (call it what you like). When its "tight" and all the rest, bass in electronic music sounds optimal to me as well as bass from acoustic instruments. It is also most dynamic and all the rest. Its very hard to get that way and still have acoustic bass sound real I think in that electronic music and acoustic music are different beasts with different attributes. Electronic music is perhaps "less real" than acoustic, but real nonetheless. All I know is it all sounds great and about as good as it gets in my house these days. After hashing through the technicalities, that in the end is all that really matters. |
Chad, I'll agree it is a very system dependent thing. As I outlined above, I can clearly hear the difference as others have described between the more highly damped bass (and sound overall) and less damped bass by switching between my BC ref1000m and TAD Hibachi 125 amps. Which do I prefer? With my main large OHM F5 series 3 speakers, I might lean towards the less damped sound with most smaller ensemble jazz, maybe not big band and similar scale classical, but for psynth/electronic music, big band large scale symphonic works, and other larger scale types of music, the high damping brings out the best with the large OHMs overall I would say. With my smaller OHMs, it might start to lean more towards less damping. With my smaller monitors, Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkII and especially Triangle Titus, things start to favor the less damped sound. I would love to run my Triangles off a tube amp someday to test those waters! OF course those are just my observation and findings with my gear, but it does support the premise that whats best is very system dependent. |
"Lovely, but I hope the early reflections from the handrail didn't spoil the music." The handrails were not easily removed, so I suppose we will never know. Sometimes, you just gotta make the best out of things the way they are! :) I've been to the Meyerhoff many times over the years. The only bad sound I ever got there was at a Steve Winwood concert with his small ensemble set up well towards the front of the stage, a good bit of electronic amplification and seats way up near the top of the venue and close to the rear left walls one level above these. There were vocalists featured during this particular "Pops" concert and they were miked but whoever did the sound mixing did an exceptional job. |
Walsh type speaker drivers might be unique in terms of how high damping affects the sound. If you read up on lincoln walsh's design, you find walsh drivers operate as a transmission line based on walsh's experience withradar systems in ww2. Also, they are mounted vertical not horizontal and gravity becomes more of a factor. I think the high damping helps the transmission line principle function better to deliver better detail and accuracy overall, not just nuanced and well controlled bass. |
Not to say it cannot be done, but I have yet to hear a SET amp do rock/pop well, at least on the usual terms of rock/pop music which is different than much classical, jazz. At shows, when SETs and high efficiency horns have been featured, the demos are always jazz or classical. At Capital Audio fest, after hearing some nice sounding Jazz being played, I asked to hear some Rush on vinyl in the Zu room where their larger high efficiency speakers were being demoed on a 5-6 watt tube amp. It sounded nice enough in a polite sort of way, but much lacking on any kind of muscle or drive needed for that kind of music. The ZU guy admitted more power was needed really for that. So I am thinking it may be possible, but certainly much more of a challenge than other approaches perhaps. I just have not heard it yet, though I am sure I have not "heard it all" yet regarding SETS/hi eff. speakers. THough no rock music was played, I felt like the Atmasphere/Classic Audio combo at teh same show could have done it nicely, but that was a much more powerful tube amp being used, not a SET. |
Charles, What I have seen/heard to date with sets is consistent with your assessment and I would tend to agree. Rock music is meant to be played/heard loud but some may not care for that so it is not an issue then. Of course peaks on orchestral and even big band jazz recordings for example can get pretty loud, but from what I have heard, SET power may not be as big an issue there for most. I have heard some orchestral recordings with convincing dynamics on at least one very high efficiency horn system using what I recall to be fairly low powered (but very expensive) Audio Note tube amps (not sure if these were SET or not though). |
"I will never claim that my gear is "genre sensitive" or it's OUTTA HERE. " I hear you and feel the same way in that I listen to all kinds of music and want it all to be completely satisfying to me all the time, soft, loud or whatever (recording permitting, but that is a different story). Having it all usually comes at a cost. Its not uncommon to compromise on certain things if not important. We all do it to some extent I suppose since it seems there is always more out there that we seek. I personally have some reservations about perhaps the most flea powered of SET amps with most any speakers that I have heard at least, to do this practically, but I suspect most any other amp suitably set up and matched to system can deliver the goods. |
One other thing I was reading about damping factor is that damping factor can have an effect on frequency response in that speaker impedance can vary greatly by frequency and hence also the damping effects. Similar to discussions often found about matching pre-amp output to amp input impedance, but perhaps with even greater variability given the variability of speaker designs from an electrical perspective. So though bass is perhaps where damping effects are most noticeable, the effects can be quite broader it would seem and perhaps hard to predict or even generalize about, being different perhaps on almost a case by case basis. Whatever ones preferences and findings, I think it is worthwhile considering the likely effects of damping factor based on specs when matching amp to speakers, especially with high output impedance tube amps where damping factor will be lower versus lower output impedance SS, where damping factor in general will be higher for any given set of speakers. Its probably always good to know what kind of amp the designer of the speaker recommends or uses. Last nights visit to the local symphony reminded me that room acoustics always play a major part in regards to what sounds best. |
Seriously, to have a chance of reproducing what you hear in a larger major metro symphony hall in your listening room in a convincing manner, be sure to sit at least halfway back or more at the symphony hall. The further back you sit, the more your listening perspective might match (individual instruments "crammed" into a smaller "soundstage" and dynamics heard be reproducible. Depending on how up to the task your home rig is, you can try sitting closer at the symphony each time and see how far you get reproducing something even remotely similar at home. I sat about half way back at the Myerhoff Saturday night in the 3rd row left center balcony (grand tier) assessing what I heard versus at home. I came home pretty happy! |
You can see where I sat Here God bless the internet for making such trivia easily shared to bore others..... |