@John thanks, yes I should have gave a bit more info. Electronics are Macbook Pro->Halide Bridge->Metrum Octave->Jeff Rowland Capri->D.A.C. Cherry Jr. Speaker cables are Acoustic Zen Satori, but of course those are easy to change. I use balanced connections where possible. The setup is in a family room of an open floor-plan concept home, dimensions are 17' wide, 23.5' deep to stairwell, ceiling height is 9.5' at front of the room and 18' at the back.
@Zd542 it seems like the Vandy 2's or 3's are pretty old designs, not sure why I should consider them(?) Have you heard some of the speakers I have auditioned by comparison? |
They were the 3.7i's. Did they have the tweeters on the outside or inside when you heard them? I could easily believe the setup was a problem - moreover I get the feeling that the room was way too small for such a large speaker. The 1.7's were better in an area roughly the same width but a bit deeper. However, neither put up the type of sound stage that the HT3's did, not even close, and the HT3's truly disappear whereas it's hard not to notice the big maggies. |
Thanks guys, these are helpful comments and information.. keep it coming :)
@Audiotomb, your experience with the HT3's sounds promising to me, can you say a bit about the placement in your room, where the image is and what kind of music you listen to? I did hear a pair of SongTowers locally in a more typical setup (through the owners club) but they are much less performant than the HT3s so I'm not sure how much I could take from them. When I heard the HT3s I also heard the ST's and for me there is still a large difference between the two models (in the HT3's favor).
@Johnnyb53, your placement/room size info would be helpful as well. Maybe I will ask the dealer if I can audition one of the models at home.. |
Wardl, that would be awesome! Looking forward to your feedback.
JohnnyR, I was not aware of the history so thanks. I'm thinking they won't be under consideration for WAF reasons though.
What about Ohm's? Should I be considering them as well? |
Thanks Wardl. Can you comment more directly on the differences between the 1.7 and HT3's? Are the HT3's in a "different league" compared to the 1.7's? In your room/setup, does the bass have impact when the music calls for it? The used pair I'm looking at is closer to 5K, I probably wouldn't hesitate at 3.5K, that is quite the find! :) |
Thanks Soix, will keep those in mind. I'm also wondering if I should check out Ohm Walshes, but I'm not sure if a single driver design will have the speed and resolutions that I crave (my "belief" is no). But they do have a nice try-out policy... |
@Wardl Thanks, that is very helpful! The Thiels were on my radar originally but then I didn't pursue it any further and I have no idea why - maybe I read something discouraging. However, there is a dealer within an hour from me so hopefully I will get a chance to hear the 2.7's.
@Johhnyb53 I suppose my thinking is with electronica it seems the artist/producer can exactly place sound sources anywhere within the overall stage so for such music I don't see how pinpoint imaging can be "wrong", but maybe the Ohm's do that justice if the source warrants it? |
@Johnnyb53 Great info, appreciate it - if I see the Triton's at a nearby store I will check them out as well. For the Ohm's and sound staging, is the idea that the soundstage is huge but the exact location of instruments, singer, etc, is "fuzzy" for lack of a better word? I'm trying to make sure I understand what you're saying. I get that you're saying it doesn't make sense to sacrifice all other parameters at the expense of a single parameter, which makes sense to me. If a speaker has good tonal balance, extension, realistic soundstage depth/width/height, I think very "clear" location of instruments/singers is a good thing... this is what I am thinking by pinpoint imaging, hopefully that is the correct interpretation.
@Bugredmachine Jim is a nice guy, absolutely. Don't see that as a reason why I should not do my own research though. I have heard the ST's in the same room and same equipment, and it was quite obvious (to me) that the HT3's are at another level. Anything below the HT3's level of performance is really not interesting to me. |
Thanks BugredMachine... power should not be a big issue for me hence my interest in HT3's as opposed to SS8 or newer models that are more efficient but also more expensive. For me the difference between the HT3 and ST was not "slight" but maybe in the right room the differences I noticed would be diminished(?) |
@Johnnyb53 Thanks, that all makes perfect sense. It also makes me want to hear the Maggies again though, as what I heard doesn't correlate to your experience.
I do have some more datapoint now: today I had the pleasure of hearing the SF Olympica III, Magico S1, B&W 803, Focal Electra 1038BE and Focal Sopra (No2). The S1 was missing a lot on the lower end and the Olympica's were colored in the mid bass to me, despite all the news of the new SF's being more balanced. The Sopra was not broken in, so the bass was not there but it had extended and airy highs that were nice. Would like to hear these when they are broken in. The Electra was pretty nice, not quite as airy as the Sopra from what I could tell but extended in both directions with nice tonality and imaging. The sound stage was more forward and I found it an exciting speaker to listen to, although I worry if it may become too much of a good thing for extended listening sessions. The 803's were much more laid back in comparison while having similar levels of detail as the Electra's and good imaging again, but not nearly as exciting of a listen.
Overall I really liked the Electra's and probably would like the Sopra's when they are broken in as well, although I cannot say for sure. The B&W's are also good but didn't feel like I would fall in love with them. |
@Wardl I think both setups were too compromised to make a definitive statement. The HT3s were in a huge room way out from the wall while the 1038BE's were in a room too small for them in my opinion. The HT3's seemed to have more air and a bigger soundstage, but unrealistic image size (room/placement effect?), the 1038BE's were superior in the bass and had more depth. The HT3's were more laid back, closer to the B&W type of presentation that I heard while the 1038BE's were more forward, but these differences might (at least partially) be down to room characteristics and electronics which were obviously different. The 1038BE's were being driven by a Plinius amp (no idea which one) while the HT3's were driven by AVA (no idea which one here either!). The 1038BE's had more impact in bass transients when it was called for while the HT3's didn't do that very well, but again that may be due to their placement far away from the back wall and in a very large room.
There was a tonality difference between the two, both have very nice tonality it is just a different interpretation I suppose... or perhaps a function of the 1038BE's being more extended in the bass region compared to the HT3's.
But I liked both in this regard. The image of the 1038BE's was more definitive, HT3's more diffuse (I keep saying this, but I am assuming much of what I heard of the HT3's is due to room/placement). I feel the 1038BE's were more detailed but it is hard to recall this aspect of the HT3's performance so take that with a grain of salt.
It is too bad that I heard the HT3's over a month ago now, but I would have to say I really liked the 1038BE's. To put it another way, after hearing the HT3's I left thinking 'yeah, those are pretty nice'. When I left after hearing the 1038BE's, I was thinking 'holy sheets, that was awesome'
If anyone else has heard these two, it would be great to hear their opinions as well! I expect I will also have some more datapoints to add to this conversation very soon... :) |
@Wardl Yes, I agree the HT3's are surely better than the setup I heard but probably the 1038BE's are nonetheless ahead, that is my feeling. How big (small) is your room that the 1.7's won't work?
@Johnnyb53 I'm still looking for 5K used which is typically 10k new, so it doesn't hurt to hear what I like so when the right used deal comes along I can jump on it. I would not be surprised if my budget increases a bit though, the Focals are tempting but I can't do 10k. However with the new line out they have already dropped in price (I believe they used to be >10k?) and maybe they will come down more as its not much of a gap between the 1038BE's and the Sopra's (it's a bit odd how they've positioned the Sopra's...).
I don't think the Maggie dealer was compromising the setup, but I suppose I can't be sure. However, I can say the fellow was a huge Maggie fan, has had them in his system at home for 20+ years and swears they are the best thing since sliced bread. The 3.7i's were being driven by Classe mono blocks and a Classe dac/pre. I've never heard Classe products before, but I was not under the impression that they are bad. IMO the room was too small for the 3.7i's but I've read other positive reviews of them where the room size was similar. So it could have been the room size or it could have been positioning of the panels themselves. I will go back and take another listen.
Do you both not see the sound being "blocked" by the panels and the sound stage being confined entirely between the panels? This is what annoyed me the most about both the 3.7i's and 1.7's when I heard them the first time.
Johhny, what made you melt when you heard the Cremona M's? I was hoping to like the Olympica III's with the idea that the Cremona M's may be a similar speaker that I could afford, but I was really disappointed. I liked the Olympica I (monitors) but I don't like the way they've implemented the bass in the floor stander. Perhaps it is also the type of music I listen to, I am not very much into classical/band/orchestra. I do love piano (eg. Rachmaninoff) and sax, but otherwise I typically listen to electronica of some variety, with the odd pop and alt/rock thrown in. They are, of course, drop dead gorgeous to look at with impeccable build quality, exactly what one expects of quality made-in-Italy products.
Wardl, if you're in the midwest you should bring your 1.7's out to my place for a jam session.. I'll buy you many beers :) ... and who knows what else ;) |
I also heard the GoldenEar Triton 1's today, not as long or extensive an audition as the dealer didn't have a USB hookup or an MP3 library (CD only, really?). But I did hear them for a good 20 minutes. They strike me as really nice mid-fi. They didn't have the air of the other speakers I've heard, and feel they are rolled off in the highs, but I didn't know the songs being played very well. The room was, again, far from ideal -- way too narrow (what are these dealers thinking?) They also didn't completely disappear and they definitely didn't seem as detailed as the other speakers I've heard. But they do everything to a reasonably good level and of course have no qualms producing bass and are as dynamic as need be. They were not as forward as the 1038BE's nor as laid back as the B&W's, but closer the latter. The tonality was good but not at the level of the 1038BE's or HT3's. I am not sure what they were being driven by, the electronics were in a rack and hard to see, but looked to be Parasound.
Johhnyb53, what were your thoughts when you heard them? |
@Johnnyb53 The RAAL ribbon in the HT3 showed plenty of air without calling attention to itself, the ribbon in the Triton1 didn't give me anywhere near the same effect. But who knows if I was hearing the Triton's at their best or not... |
Thanks Johnny, it is not possible that I was above axis but recalling the setup it is likely I was below axis and so that could explain at least part of the lack of tweeter response that I experienced. Irregardless, I have little doubt that they are not what I am looking for.
I had the chance to hear the Aerial Acoustics 6T and 7T and Vandy 2ceSig2 today. I heard the 6T with a PrimaLuna tube amp, the 7T with McIntosh SS gear and the Vandy also with a Prima Luna tube amp. The 6T was not so impressive to me so I won't say much more. The 7T is very good, refined, smooth, detailed, wonderful sound staging, delicate, proper image placement in height as well as width and depth, I was impressed. The tonality is very good but ultimately a bit on the dry or "boring" side for me, so while I could appreciate all the excellent things this speaker does it somehow did not excite me in the way that the 1038BE did (which had a more vibrant tonality and also seemed better with dynamics). I have to add some disclaimers. First, I heard the 7T in a properly set up room just for those speakers, whereas I heard the 1038BE on the left side of a room where the right side was storing ~20 pairs of speakers, i.e. not a well dialed in room. So, while I would say the imaging/soundstaging of the 7T was better than the 1038BE, this may have been due to the room. Both of these speakers are 10K/pair, if I was going consider one I would definitely want to hear the 1038BE's as well setup as the 7T's. Second, the music selection where I heard the 7T was not as vast as where I heard the 1038BE's and in particular I wasn't able to play songs I know very well, so my ability to completely interpret the differences between these two speakers is limited.
So, what about the Vandy? Wow, what a surprise that was. Thank you, zd542, for the suggestion even if I was quick to initially pass on it. The tonality of the Vandy was more beautiful (for me - i.e. closer to the 1038BE's tonality) than the 7T's to me, they soundstaged and imaged very well, not as well as the 7T's of course (especially in height) but still very well, and they were detailed (nearly at the same level as these other models but not at the same level of refinement) and were dynamic, and overall just a fun and easy speaker to listen to and like. The Vandy's are good at pretty much everything, they are just not at the level of these 10K speakers, but good enough that I would not be too disappointed pocketing the 7.5K difference for other things :)
Tomorrow I will hear a used pair of 3A signatures and be able to play my music, so hopefully I will be able to confirm this unexpected surprise (although I do not know what version of the 3A sigs these are - the 2ceSigs I heard were the latest edition). |
I thought I should update this thread. I ended up buying demo 3A signatures. They are the previous version of midrange/tweeter drivers, but nonetheless I'm loving these speakers and the paring with my system is great!
I will post more details after some weeks, but one thing I would say I learned from my journey is that a properly setup room makes such a big difference that I absolutely cannot believe some of these dealers trying to sell 10K speakers without a properly setup demo room. That's inexcusable. I realize it's a hard business, but why make it harder on yourself?
Now back to enjoying some sweet sounds... :-) |
