Some POS from Singapore is trying to sell a pair of NOS ECC803S's for $1099.99 + shipping.
http://cgi.ebay.com/2XNOS-ECC803S-ECC83-12AX7-Telefunken-Bottom-Ulm_W0QQitemZ130310286752QQihZ003QQcategoryZ67816QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
MoFo! |
I agree, Nsgarch, that's a vey interesting article. I have often wondered about 5751's. I will keep my eyes open for some and try them.
I was a bit surprised that I was not all that impressed by the Telefunkens, given their reputation. Oh well...
Cheers! |
Just finished listening to 10Ms compared to Bugle Boys.
Mmm...
They are both detailed, clean, open, great with male and female vocals, lots of air, great timbre, dynamic, and involving. I would give a slight edge to the 10Ms overall for slightly more dynamics and slightly better presence, perhaps wider and more depth to the soundstage, too.
However, in light of the current price differential (BB $145/matched pair vs. 10M $350/pair), I would go with the Bugle Boys. Since the performance of these tubes is so damned close, I do not consider the 10Ms worth more than twice the price of the Bugle Boys. I wouldn't consider them to be worth 10% more than the Bugle Boys.
It really was close! I went back and forth for 3 hours being enthralled by both tubes! Honestly. I found it hard to decide. I played a lot of music including Stairway to Heaven, Rickie Lee Jones, Paganiniana - Water Lily Acoustics, Madman Across the Water, some from Goodbye Yellow Brick Road, Mozart's Requiem - Harmonia Mundi, some from Timbre and Solera - Opus 3, September 15 (from As Falls Witchita...) and Lonely Woman (with Charlie Hayden and Billy Higgins) -- Pat Metheny, Diamond Dogs and Ziggy Stardust -- David Bowie.
Again, I appreciate any feedback or comments -- it is very interesting to me; especially anyone with experience with both tubes.
Cheers! |
I just spun two new records (both 180g vinyl) -- Rickie Lee Jones, Rickie Lee Jones and Pop Pop. Interesting result when I swapped out Bugle Boy and JJ 12ax7's.
Background: I recently won a Denessen Soundtracktor on ebay and decided to align my cartridge with it. I had used the Alphason protractor that came with my HRS-100, originally. I was using some new JJ 12ax7's that I got for cheap and noticed they didn't sound half-bad after breaking in. When I aligned my cartridge with the Denessen, I noticed that voices opened up, there was more air, and the soundstage generally cleaned up, but the bass was so thin that I really thought I had better start researching good sub-woofers.
Tonight when I received these two records and spun them I thought I would put the Bugle Boys back in the pre-amp. Of course I listened with the JJ's in at first.
Well, with the Bugle Boys I immediately realized that I don't need a sub-woofer in my current set-up and room. It was such an amazing contrast! Truly immediate and night-and-day. I know that JJ's are basicaly run of the mill 12ax7's, but I never would have guessed nor imagined that the difference would have been so dramatic. I am truly glad that I have 3 matched pair of the Bugle Boys! It will be a long time before I need to use the JJ's.
Besides the incredible difference in bass, I also noticed timbral, soundstage depth and width, mid-range, and high frequency improvements that were significant. On the high end, I noticed a raspiness or edge with the JJ's that disappeared with the Bugle Boys. I thought that the records, being re-mastered were perhaps badly pressed. The edge and rasp disappeared with the Bugle Boys.
My conclusion is that when I look for replacement tubes, it is worthwhile to seriously consider NOS tubes rather than current production ones. I have not listened to re-issues, that is why I say, "consider."
I am really interested to hear from anyone who has experience with re-issues compared to NOS tubes. That might be an interesting tube-roll. Certainly my conclusion so far is that NOS 12ax7's are much, much better than current production JJ 12ax7's. It's a pity to think that good current production 12ax7's are so lame -- what to do when it is time to buy new tubes? Another question I have is, is there such a dramatic difference between current El34's, or other power output tubes, and NOS El34's? |
Thanks Rodman! I have read good things about the Winged C el34's. The National el34's look nice, too. Great information!
I use the 12ax7's in the pre-amp phono stage.
Cheers! |
I am using a Fisher 400 pre-amp now with Bugle Boy 12ax7's now and am very, very happy with them. This is the pre-amp I was using when I exchanged the JJ's for the BB's recently. With the JJ's I honestly thought I needed a sub-woofer, and when I changed to BB's I realized I didn't. The sound stayed crystal clear, the highs lost the edginess that I heard with the JJ's, the mid-range blossomed into sweetness, and the bass filled out the missing void.
I would recommend Bugle Boy's. The Orange Globe labeled Amperex tubes sound tempting to me. Telefunken's are definitely a step up from JJ's, but I prefer the BB's. The Tele's are very good at everything but miss the magic of the BB's.
For less money, I bet almost all NOS 12ax7's will beat out current production jobs. I have been satisfied with RCA and Sylvania NOS 12ax7's over the JJ's.
Give the tubes time to break-in before jumping to a conclusion. The JJ's became sweeter over time, but in my opinion could not stand up to the NOS tubes that I have.
Happy listening after your search! |
Hi Clipper,
I have the BB 12ax7's in the phono stage, a BB 12at7 nearest the transformer, 2 Sylvania 12at7's near the can caps, and an unknown old stock 7025 in between (near the 6v4 rectifier).
The pre-amp sounds fine on tuner and both aux's, and of course, super fine on phono. I have repaired mine as many of the old Wima caps have dried out and wasted away.
I have also used the BB's in my Dynaco Pas3x and have found the same results as I previously described. The Fisher is not as forward sounding as the Dynaco, but it is, oh, so much sweeter! I was happy to see some Fishers selling on ebay for more than $450 in the last few months! As I recall, one of those was the 400-cx, which has a better following, but the other was a plain old 400-c. I have the 400-c. I like it and can't wait to get my Koetsu re-done -- should be mid-range luscious delight! |
Actually I found the upper frequency detail softened and veiled by the Telefunkens in my system compared to Bucgle Boys and Mullards, including the 10ms.
This is with my Fisher 400c and Dynaco Pas3x pre-amps.
I did not have muddiness with the Tele's, just not the same upper frequency and timbral magic of the BB's and Mullards. Also, the latter two brands were more open and had wider and deeper soundstaging qualities. |
Hi Rodman,
They came with my Dynaco pre-amp. I bought it and a Stereo 70 from the son of an engineer who made it while he was in college in 1965. I don't believe he ever changed the tubes. The tubes test very well in my tube tester.
The tubes have the diamond in the glass inside the semi-circle of pins. There are number codes inside the diamonds (date codes I guess).
I have long since rubbed off the lettering while cleaning the tubes with isopropanol. But the diamonds are of course there as they are molded in the glass. |
Now you tell me! After I washed off those cool little bugle boys off my Bugle Boys! Should I just toss them and buy some of those more robust Bugle Boys where the bugle boy doesn't wash off?
Thanks for the information! I will give it a try. |
Thanks Nsgarch for watching out for me. I should have put a "just kidding" type statement after my first paragraph above. Sorry, my sense of humor can be pretty bad or twisted.
I have read articles on the Internet in my research about the counterfeits of the highly valued "NOS" tubes, and one of the first things they mention to look out for is labels that are tenacious and don't wash off.
Actually, as an aside, the counterfeits make me wonder about re-issues. Are they really built to spec of the original tubes, and with the same quality of workmanship? The burning question is, do they sound as good? Anyone have experience with them in comparison to the originals?
From the very first moment that I started cleaning my NOS tubes, I noticed how easily the labels came off. The labels were practically rubbing off in my latex-gloved fingers. And with isopropanol, they came off immediately (the labels, not my fingers). I immediately broke out my tube tester and Sharpie-brand marker, and numbered, tested and cataloged my tubes before cleaning the rest. I matched the tube number to the tube brand and measured specs. I am so happy I did that because now, years later, I can still identify tubes and match them.
Thanks for the tip about Herleen Holland, too. I will look out for them. I like the BB's so much that I am very curious to see if the other Amperex's sound as nice.
Thanks again for watching out for me so that I don't get ripped off -- there are many things I am naive about and it is great when decent people speak up! |
Great information Nsgarch, thank you! |
Thanks, Nsgarch! It burned me up to see that auction. After a little thought, I have reached the conclusion that I won't let the likes of him upset me. If people are willing to pay the prices he asks, it is their problem. Thank you for your supportive comment.
Perhaps the synergies between different tubes and amps has to do with the electrical properties of the tubes and the circuits they are plugged into. This sounds like stating the obvious. But, maybe the effects of the parameters are more profound than theory or expectations suggest. It is an interesting phenomenon! |
Hi Larryi,
My objections were to (what I believe is) the crazy pricing. I even think ~$300 for a pair of 10m's is insane. I love the tubes dearly, but where does gouging end and fair value begin?
I am not used to the idea of rare tubes and the enormous prices they can command. I realize price will only go up as time progresses, and the tubes become more rare. Through my own experiences with 12ax7's, 6gh8's, and el34's, I do believe that the older tubes were better.
I think it is a seller's market, and am disappointed to see the free market capitalism envelope push so hard. But that's only my opinion, there are many valid arguments against my point of view! One of them is the very obvious supply and demand. Another is the arguable dearth of current production competition.
The thought that these were fakes did, of course, cross my mind. How would you return them if the midrange was grainy and top-end was shrill, then you discovered you could not rub off the markings with your finger tips? It seems to me to be too much of a risk to take at that price. I am in no way implying that they are fakes! I have no experience with the seller, and have nothing against him except the pricing of his tubes.
These may turn out to be fair market value, given the laws of the market. Of course, then I eat crow, as they say. But I have seen other markets where the price envelope is pushed to the extreme by a few, then that pushes the average to an artificially high level. That is what repulses me.
I have read the above comments. Thank you! All valid points.
Cheers. |
After looking at record lists, and some thought, I think I can reconcile the seemingly absurd pricing of some NOS tubes. Analogizing it to record prices, some records are exquisite, rare, and no longer produced, and thus priced accordingly.
That doesn't mean I won't shiver when I see the prices. I just understand that they are not made anymore, and that they are masterpieces of their genre, hence command a pretty penny. Of course, I will avoid them because of higher priorities for my money.
Of course, deep down I still will feel disdain towards those driving market prices up. But that's my issue to deal with.
Best wishes... |
