Branimir,
I certainly don't believe everything I read; including what I read in Stereophile and TAS. I'm not familiar with John Potis. Do you find the reviews on 6moons and PF to be less objective than those in Stereophile and TAS? I take them all with an equal grain of salt.
I'm trying to keep an open mind about hard-drive audio.
Here's the bottom line: the engineer's original digital audio tape sounds so much better than the CDs that are produced from it. I have to believe that there is a higher-quality way to play back digitally recorded music than spinning optical discs made of plastic. To be honest, with high-end CD playback I think we are all trying to make silk purses from sows' ears. |
Pardales,
What transport did you own prior to going with the hard-drive system?
In my, very limited, experience there is something to be gained by ripping a CD but there are also some things that get lost:
1. low-level ambient detail and venue cues
2. an organic and natural presentation of space is often replaced by an amorphous sense of space, a 'black void.' |
Henryhk,
I'm still using the SACD 1000 (not the CDSD). I use the clock in the SACD 1000. I like the Stealth so much that I actually prefer to listen to the Redbook layer of SACDs (using the Stealth wire) rather than listen to the SACD layer using the ST Glass wire.
My understanding is that since the DCC2 upconverts PCM to DSD anyway, I don't think it should matter if PCM or DSD is coming from your CDSD.
I've read that using the ST Glass wire requires a conversion of the signal from electrical-to-optical-back to-electrical. Each time there is a conversion jitter is introduced. I'm no techie; I'm just reporting what I read. |
|
Teajay,
Long story...
Since I no longer use the preamp section of the DCC2 and I no longer listen to SACDs, I just can't justify owning such an expense "CD player" (DCC2 + CDSD = $20k; my car is worth half that). I'm looking to sell my DCC2 and SACD 1000. The first thing I will do is upgrade my linestage. I will then probably buy one of the following DACs (I've only heard the first one):
1. Accustic Arts DAC 1 mk3
2. Reimyo DAP-777
3. Audio Aero Capitole (I'm not sure if this one is on the market yet).
4. Weiss Medea (if I can luck into a demo or used one)
As for the transport, I want to keep it cheap and cheerful because I'm going to be keeping my eye on hard-drive-based transports. I hope that I will be satisfied with a CEC TL-51x in the meanwhile. |
I've always said that I'm not interested in owning a great stereo; I really don't like how stereos sound. I'm interested in experiencing real music in my listening room.
--------------------
I tried using an old MSB DAC with the Accustic Arts Drive 1 that I still have on loan. I defeated the upsampling and the various filters that came as options on the DAC. The sound was a little thin, a little bright, and a little aggressive; but it was refreshingly 'unprocessed'. It had a rightness and an immediacy to it. The air on the soundstage was clean and well-lit. The walls of the recording venue would light up as sound bounced off them and echoed around.
The pairing of the AA Drive 1 and AA DAC1 mk3 was certainly smoother, fuller and more sophisticated. The Drive 1 and the EMM DCC2 were downright boring. It should be noted that both upsampling DACs came across as somewhat 'processed' and 'unnatural' in comparison with the MSB in non-upsampling mode. They reminded me of the kind of sound you sometimes get when a manufacturer 'softens' a solid state amp to make it sound more like a tube amp; it's just unsatisfying.
This experience has me seriously looking into non-upsampling DACs. They sounded good to me in theory but now I can say that they also sound, not necessarily good (just yet), but 'right,' in practice. |
For what it's worth, I've started a
"Reference Transports: An overall perspective"
thread.
I had nothing constructive to say; I was just hoping to get the ball rolling. |
Teajay,
I'll try and answer your 3 questions:
1) Did you have have the chance to audition the Audiomat reference Dac which does not upsample?
Not yet, but I will try and get that one in.
2) Did you audition the AA DAC1mk3 with the Sextet or did you have to return it before you got the Stealth cable?
The latter; but I will be sure to do so before moving in another direction.
3) If you liked the non-upsampling DAC would you attempt to audition DACS from Audio Note or Zanden?
I really want to hear the Zanden in my system but it is pretty much impossible to do so where I live. I'm so anxious to try it that I'm having a hard time not buying it without hearing it first (always a bad idea). If someone wanted to trade me a 5000 LE for my DCC2 I would probably go for it (another bad idea). |
Henry,
Short of actually buying the CDSD, I'm not going to be able able to hear one in my system. I find it hard to commit to the CDSD when the combination of the Accustic Arts Drive 1 and EMM DCC2 is so disappointing in my system. Though the Philips/DCC2 combo was better, there was always a 'ringing' on transients that I believe may be caused by the digital filters in the DCC2. In addition, the midband was recessed and there was less layering in the depth dimension when compared to the 'NoNo' DAC that I have in my sytem right now. It is my suspicion that upsampling and other processing techniques done in the digital domain have an addvers effect on timing cues and phase integrity.
Thanks very much for your input on the various tranports. |
Teajay,
"does this mean that you have given up your quest to audition non-upsampling DACS for right now?"
Yes; *for now*. I would have to take too big a hit in order to sell my DCC2 right now. There is a lot of used EMM stuff around. I'm still very interested in hearing the Zanden 5000 LE in my system, however.
"That you finally decided that it would not be fair to change your Meitner Dac without first hearing how it would perform with its matching transport?"
This is also true. I didn't want to have any regrets about what 'could have been.'
"Will you still use your Sextet balanced cable or do you think you will use the optical cable on redbook?"
I find it hard to believe that the optical cable will be better but I'll try both and just go with the one that sounds best. The DCC2 upsamples PCM to DSD so I'm not sure why it is beneficial to have the CDSD send anything other than PCM when playing Redbook. I should note that when it comes to audio my assumptions and preconceptions usually turn out to be wrong.
I'll let you know how it all turns out. |
Right: I will send the PCM signal to the DCC2 via the AES/EBU. I will also send the clock signal to the DCC2 via a BNC.
I will set the DCC2 to be the Master and the CDSD, the slave.
The DCC2 will upconvert PCM from *any* tranport to 5.6488MHz DSD (according to the EMM Labs website).
Since the AES/EBU cannot carry DSD, I will not be able to play SACDs with this hook up. I can use the ST Glass cables for this. |
Just thought I'd check in...
I'm still waiting for the CDSD. I'm positive it will arrive this week.
In the meantime I'm using the Accustic Arts Drive 1 as a transport along with the Stealth cable.
For weeks I have had the choice of using an old MSB DAC or my DCC2. The bottom line is that the MSB DAC with all the upsampling defeated and all the filters turned off is so much more enjoyable than the DCC2. The music has so much more honesty and life to it. Sure, it has *lots* of flaws. It is a very raw and unsophisticated but it is also authentic and unprocessed.
In this particular set-up the DCC2 is at best, boring. At worst, it sounds processed and smoothed over. You know that awful sound you sometimes get when a solid state amp is 'warmed up and smoothed over' in the hopes of making it sound like a good tube amp?
(Having said this, I'm sure that most audiophiles would still rather listen to my system using the DCC2.)
As you might have guessed; I've become very pessimistic about digital. The Stealth cable is, however, great. What I will probably end up doing is putting it between a decent transport and decent non-upsampling/no-filter DAC.
Having said all this, I still hope the CDSD makes me eat my words. It would sure save me lots of money if it did. |
I've been using the CDSD for two days now via the ST Glass cables.
I will be getting a BNC cable this weekend to try in a set-up along with the Stealth AES/EBU.
I am getting very good sound from the EMM Combo. It is easily the best digital that I have heard in my system.
The next step will be to try the Stealth cable. My expectation is that it will be better. Then again, my expectations are usually incorrect.
Next month I have been offered the Weiss Medea/Jason to try in my system. That was a pleasant and unexpected surprise. I will be sure to report my findings to the thread. |
After a few days of burn-in I have come to some conclusions:
1. The EMM Labs combo is shockingly good. It is extremely transparent and lifelike. I am officially eating my words.
2. The best way to use these is with EMM's 'ST Glass' cables. Using the Stealth Sextet Varidig AES-EBU to carry the audio signal; a BNC cable to carry the clock signal; and the DCC2 as the master clock, led to a presentation that could best be described as "confused" in comparison with the ST Glass cables.
This proves that my predictions about how things will sound are amazingly consistent; I am wrong almost 100% of the time. At least I know that I am not falling victim to the 'placebo effect.'
Branimir,
I will hang on to my Stealth cable to do the Weiss test.
My guess is that I will be staying with EMM and that I will be wanting to sell the cable afterwards. I wish I had a second one to properly evaluate the Weiss combo.
Teajay,
The two categories that you put forth to begin this thread are still very valuable but I have to say that after hearing the EMM combo it has led me to a paradigm shift when thinking about digital.
I had previously thought that digital was a very flawed medium and the best we could really hope for was to pick a 'flavour' that we could live with.
I believe that the EMM gear transcends the 'flavour' dichotomy. It just sounds so right, so correct, and so real, in comparison with everything else that I've heard so far. |
Branimir,
I forgot to answer your last quest. 'Yes,' the digital search is over. If something falls in my lap (like the Weiss) I will definitely have a listen but I won't be actively trying to arrange auditions. Thanks to you, and everyone, for their help.
On to the next search:
My system could use more power and quickness at high volume levels.
I have an active crossover on the way. I hope it will take some strain off one on my pairs of amps.
I am also compliling a short list of big triode amps that I'd like to hear (just in case I want to move away from my 'little' Manley 250s).
I started a "Powerful Push Pull Triode Amplifiers" thread but it has pretty much fizzled out. |
Elberoth2,
I can only speak for my particular unit when I say that it is problem-free. I have the newest version of the CDSD, the one with the USB port for future upgrades. |
I was surprised as well!
I contributed to that thread when I was using the DCC2 with the SACD 1000. The AES/EBU connection was clearly better with that set-up.
With the DCC2 and CDSD, the AES/EBU - BNC connection was inferior in every way. It had an especially detrimental effect on the soundstaging. Image placement became smeared and somewhat incoherent.
I do think that the EMM combo can be a little cold and bright but, in my opinion, it would be much better to get added warmth by changing things downstream; not between the transport and DAC. |
Teajay,
I'm certainly in no position to say what's best since I've only heard a few of the top-end offerings. Even if I had heard everything I would probably only be able to say 'what's best for me.'
What I will stick to at this point, however, is to say that *with my equipment*, the EMM comes across (to me and everyone who has heard it) as simply better than everything else. I must insist that this is NOT a matter of flavour. Truth be told, I am not particularly fond of the flavour of the EMM; it is a little too category #1 for my tastes. I much prefer the flavour of the Accustic Arts combo.
Why then, didn't I buy the Accustic Arts?
-Because I believe that there is a -fundamental- difference between the EMM and the Accustic Arts. |
Teajay,
I'm still waiting for the Weiss combo to be shipped from Europe and I'm still enjoying the EMM combo (using EMM's ST Glass connectors, surprisingly).
I probably no longer need that great Stealth Varidig Sextet AES-EBU digital cable that you put me on to so if anyone out there is interested in a great digital cable at a great price, just send me an email. |
In his article Digital Zen Dick Olsher wrote: "In my experience, zero oversampling gives the impression of a more believable soundstage. The spatial impression in terms of depth and width perspectives is typically better defined relative to oversampling designs. It is as though the auditory system is presented with a better set of cues with which to synthesize a 3-D impression of the auditory stream." This is what I've experienced as well. This is a quality that is outside of our "Category 1 vs. Category 2" dichotomy. Some DACs get this right and some don't. If we were to present the "Category 1 vs. Category 2" model as a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being extremely Category 1 and 10 being extremely Category 2, then I'd might rate my preference as a 7. Having said this, I would rather own a DAC that registerd a 1 on this scale, and got the spatial impression right, than a DAC that was a 7 and got the spatial stuff wrong. As Ajahu says, it is the difference between listening to "real music" as oppossed to a "wonderful hifi reproduction of music." |
Teajay,
No worries; we'll just agree to disagree.
To be honest I probably haven't heard a big enough sample of both types in my system to really draw that conclusion.
As for 'tube vs. solid state,' I've never heard a tube DAC in my system. Like the Attraction DAC itself, everything has been SS (ARC; EMM; dCS; Accustic Arts; MSB). |
I've purchased a DAC that I believe falls in the "Reference" category. One of the nice things about it is that it comes as a less than "Reference" price ($1,000). I had been using an EMM Labs DCC2 DAC and CDSD transport. Since the new DAC only accepts RCA digital cables and my CDSD transport didn't have RCA digital outputs, I ended up borrowing an inexpensive CD player (Synthesis)to use as a transport and an inexpensive digital RCA cable (Cardas 'Lightning') to try out the new DAC in my system. After about 5 minutes listening, I knew that the EMM Labs gear would be going up for sale. I couldn't believe how honest and musical the presentation was. This DAC excels at 'time and space.' You don't have to use your imagination to 'see' the musicians in their space or 'feel' their music fill your room. Honest, musical, natural, unprocessed, and real are words that come to mind when listening to this DAC. I can only imagine what will happen when I get a decent transport and digital RCA cable for it. I know longer have my EMM Labs transport and DAC. In short, I agree with Dick Olsher in his review "Digital Zen." The Altmann Micro Machines Attraction DAC "has given me the best CD sound I have experienced...cost no object." |
David,
Have you heard a hard drive-based system that sounds as good as a reference-level transport?
With all the high frequency switching going on inside a computer and the type of cabling used at the output of the computer, I can't imagine that the sound would be that good. |
Elberoth2,
I too am surprised that we don't hear more about MBL.
When I started a "reference transport" thread and I assumed that someone would mention the mbl 1621A or 1521A. |
I read somewhere (here or AA) that one person liked the Attraction better than his Audio Note 4.1. I still find it hard to believe that the Attraction could best the AN 5.1 or the Zanden 5000 but who knows? I own the Attraction and I've never heard either of the other two in my system. In terms of price we're comparing apples and oranges. In terms of performance, I don't think it gets much better than this trio. |
Well, I received a used Zanden 5000 mkIV today.
It goes without saying (but I'll say it anyway) that the following are just MY opinions of how the two DACs sound in MY system.
The Attraction DAC has a more extended bottom end, more bloom from the midrange to low frequencies, better image density, and throws a larger sounstage. The Attraction offers a big, enveloping sound. The Attraction is more 'lusty' and in some ways more typically 'tubey' than the tubed Zanden.
As expected I really enjoyed the vocals through the Zanden. The Zanden has better high frequency extension, better prat, better microdynamics, it is more transparent and it lights up the soundstage with more ambient information.
The Zanden is a cleaner sound and the Attraction is a more seductive sound. On a scale where 1 represents 'analytical' and 10 represents 'romantic': in my system and room (which can be a little bright) the Zanden is a 5 and the Attraction is a 7 or 8. One might think it should be the other way around. |
Thanks Teajay.
1) Please share in more detail what the Attraction DAC offers you, that other upsampling SS DACS did not in your listening experiences. Remember I only care about redbook not SACD.
Speaking very generally, I find oversampling DACs to either sound somewhat 'processed' or somewhat 'confused.'
I'll be the first to admit that some of the 'processed' sound can sound enjoyable. In my system, for instance, the AA DAC showed warmth and nice dense images. It just didn't ring true to me: the immediacy and excitement of live music was missing; the musical inter-play between the performers was missing. This is a great DAC but I just wasn't excited about coming home and listening to music when I had it in my system.
It was definitely not 'confused.' Confused oversampling DACs show images with shadows and fuzzy outlines. They barage the listener with information but very little music.
In addition to 'processed' and 'confused'; every oversampling DAC that I've had in my system had problems in the time domain. It is as if the images had difficulty breathing their energy forward toward the listener. As a listener I am left to watch the music on the stage. I have to 'go to' the images. In real life, music comes to you.
2) I had a ML-31.5 transport and thought with my gear that the reference Ensemble sounded better. If I got it correct you just replaced your Accustic Arts Drive 1 with the ML-31.5. What differences between the two transport did you hear that lead to your decision.
3) I will be receiving in the next day or two the new version of the Accustic Arts transport that is a major upgrade parts wise compared to the first generation and was developed by Accustic Arts to bring out the best possible performance from the their new MK4 DAC. I will be writing a review of my audition experience in the next couple of weeks. Did you consider this new version of the Accustic Arts Drive 1 or were you so enamored with what the ML-31.5 offered that would be no reason to audition it?
I had every intention of using the new Drive 1 with my Attraction DAC (though I have never heard this transport).
I was then offered a good price on a 31.5 from a friend and I took him up on it. The Drive 1 may be better for all I know. There is a very good chance that I will be able to do a comparison of the new Drive 1 and the 31.5. I will post my findings when I do. The other transport that has me excited is a battery-powered CEC TL-1x from Reference Audio Modifications.
I should note that I took the plunge and picked up a used Zanden 5000 mkIV solely to compare it with my Attraction DAC! (They don't sell Zanden around me and I couldn't get a demo). Here is my expectation: the Zanden will be better on vocals; the Attraction will be more fun to listen to in every other respect.
We'll see! |
I just got my Attraction DAC back from Germany after having a few upgrades installed on it.
If you are going to order one of these DACs be sure to get the JISCO option. Don't even think about not getting it; the difference is not subtle. |
Nilthepill,
I ordered the Zanden a week ago but I don't expect it to arrive until next week.
I will be sure to post my review. |
Teajay,
Thank you; I'm positive I'll have a chance to do the comparison.
To my great surprise, it turns out that changing transports doesn't make much of a difference with the Attraction DAC (with JISCO re-clocking device) but it will certainly make a big difference with the Zanden DAC.
I'm guessing that the AA is better than the 31.5 because it does of better job of keeping the signal time aligned (it doesn't add as much jitter).
I should have the Zanden next week and regardless of what I think of it as compared to the Attraction DAC, I will keep both for a few months at least. I want to see how each 'synergizes' with a pair of tubed preamps that I'm going to be listening to next month. |
It depends on what options you pick for the Altmann.
The model with all the bells and whistles (this is the one that I have), is about $1,700 USD.
Nilthepill,
'All things being equal', 7 is perfect for me.
The tonal balance of the Altmann sounds like live music.
The weight of the Altmann sounds like live music.
The articulation of the Zanden sounds like live music.
I hope to get the Zanden close to the Altmann in the first two categories by adding Altmann's JISCO re-clocking device.
Adding the JISCO to my Attraction DAC helped the weight, tonal balance, low frequency extension and mid-bass bloom. These same aspects improved in an older digital configuration that I had when I added the Stealth Vardig Sextet digital cable. Like the JISCO, I believe that this cable helps to keep the time signature marching along at the proper pace. I have thus come to the temporary conclusion that getting the timing right in the digital domain goes a long way to 'fleshing' out the music, especially below the midrange.
I think I could get the articulation of the Attraction close to that of the Zanden if I changed the battery that I am currently using to a much more robust one suggested by a user on another 'Altmann' thread (which for some reason has been pulled by Audiogon). |
Pardales,
Thank you. I will receive the JISCO in 3 to 5 weeks and report on what it does in combination with the Zanden DAC.
Nilthepill,
The bottom-end of the Zanden has opened up a little after many hours of use.
I'm not sure I'll have a final decision on these DACs anytime soon. I plan to just keep them both and move them in and out of my system when trying out different components (especially linestages). The Attraction puts out 5v and the Zanden only 1v. How the DACs compare to one another in a particular system may largely come down to the synergy between DAC and linestage. |
I'm making the switch to a tubed linestage and it looks like I will be going with the Zanden 5000 mkIV as my DAC. I really love the way it handles vocals in my system.
Right now I'm just waiting for the Altmann JISCO to add to the Zanden. |
I'm not sure what I'll do with the Attraction. I still haven't even tried it as a DAC for 24/96 (and higher) formats.
I'm sure the Zanden linestage is excellent and if Zanden wanted to send me one to demo I would welcome the opportunity! :-)
Right now I'm trying the Aesthetix Callisto linestage and I'll be trying the Atma-Sphere MP-1 as well. Who knows, maybe my system will sound better with the Attraction in place once I insert the MP-1?
I won't go into details about the Callisto because this thread is about DACs. I will say, however, that I've listed my Blowtorch for sale. |
Yes, the Altmann DAC is only sold direct.
Here is the link:
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/attraction.htm
I'm also interested in his ideas on acoustics and the effect of laquer on wood in rooms. |
Teajay,
'Tenacity' probably isn't the word that my wife or my friends would use, but thanks :-)
It has been an enjoyable thread and I think your conclusion/summary is well stated. |
Sabertouch,
I was going to demo the Accustic Arts DAC with my 31.5 because someone in the industry here in Canada wanted to hear the DAC. My search for a DAC ended with the Zanden.
I was going to demo the Accustic Arts transport with my Zanden to see if it sounded better than my 31.5.
I can understand why your vinyl-loving friend would like the AA DAC. I listened to one of their older DACs and it has some of the softness, fullness, and warmth of vinyl.
Who knows, maybe the demos will still take place. If they do I will be sure to post. |
I will be able to tell you how the following combos compare in my system in a couple of weeks:
1. Accustic Arts Dac 1 Mk4 with a ML 31.5
2. Accustic Arts Dac 1 Mk4 with a Accustic Arts Drive 1 mk2 |
Garyk,
I did receive it and it is wonderful. It did everything for the Zanden that it did for the Attraction DAC. Everything sounds fuller, deeper, and more spacious. It isn't a matter of flavour, it just sounds more right and more real.
It is my belief that getting the timing right in the digital domain (reducing jitter) will lead always lead to these attributes. I believe that the thinness and lack of bottom end in many digital products is largely the result of jitter.
A couple of very critical listeners who are vinyl aficionados have heard my system through its various progressions and right now they really like what they hear.
Teajay,
I fully agree with your hunch. |
I haven't had a chance to hear the new AA stuff in my system. Perhaps next week.
There used to be a store where I live that sold Audiomat gear but they have closed. It is interesting that they have tried the non-upsampling route. |
I wish everyone the best of luck with their DACs.
I probably won't be doing any more comparisons of DACs or transports; I've gone over to the "dark side" (vinyl). |
Henryhk,
I certainly did consider the Zanden transport. I just can't justify the cost for this piece.
To be honest, if I could find all my favourite music on LP I would sell my digital frond end and my CD collection. I haven't listed to a CD in over a month. Unfortunately, only about half of the albums I want will ever be available on vinyl so I will have to keep my digital equipment. Once I get my vinyl playback to the level I want I will probably start looking at making my digital better and you are right, the way to do this is to get the Zanden transport.
I don't want this to devolve into a digital vs. analog debate but I do want to make one point.
One of my reservations about going into vinyl was the fact that many of the albums that I buy are recorded digitally. Why on earth would I want to playback a digital recording on vinyl rather than CD? I have no idea why it is but I can tell you that the digital recordings that I own sound much better on vinyl than they do on CD. A case in point is Iron and Wine's "Endless Numbered Days." The realism, soul, and humanity on the vinyl are so much better than the CD. The difference is not subtle. It is so profound that I can almost say that until you hear the vinyl, you really haven't 'heard' this record. Another case in point is Beck's "Sea Change," though I can't state for certain that this one was recorded digitally. I've owned "Sea Change" on SACD (played through EMM Labs CDSD and DCC2) on CD (played through EMM Labs, then Altmann, then Zanden) and now on vinyl. Again, listening to the vinyl is like hearing the album for the first time. |
I didn't think I would have anything else to contribute to this thread. That was until I read that last post.
Though I've always lived in Canada I've been a die-hard Bears fan since 1977. Why? Number 34!
GO BEARS! |
I know this question is off topic but since I used to post to this thread I know that there are lots of people here that are very knowledgeable about all things digital.
I'd like your help finding a budget CD player. I'm looking for a used, one-box unit, with no upsampling/no oversampling, and a tube output. The price has to be under $1,000 used.
Thanks. |
