Bydlo, another cartridge I am seriously considering and think will suit your requirement very well is the Yamamoto YC-03s. Please read about it. You can buy brand new within your budget. |
Bydlo, picka ti materina! There is one FR-7fz on ebay.uk
for 1090 GBP. Looks like the underwear of Michelle Pfeifer.
Item nr.150862965820. If you are not satisfied you can object
by ebay with the argument: 'not as described' (by some Serbian). |
Lewm, thanks. I'll take a look. Yes, with the 2nd arm I'd like to proceed by contraries. Apart from Transfiguration, any interesting cart in the Shelter and Benz families?
BTW, why you guys want to behave like primabalerinas and get offended if your advice is not received kneeing is only known to you...I'm grateful, but not uncritical. I cut my system to my taste. The only cart which has been proposed was FR7 and my objection was that it's 2nd hand which I wanted to avoid if possible, which I tried to explain why.
Finally, I started thinking more seriously about it but it seems that i) there is no experience on how it matches SME3012R
and ii) how to recognize if the cart is in a good shape. To me both things seems logical.
What other carts have I "hit out of the park" (whatever) God only knows.
|
It would take a truly annoying cartridge to reverse the romantic slant of the other stuff in your signal chain is perhaps a simpler way of re-stating my thesis. The most neutral cartridges I have heard are the TOTL Transfiguration cartridges, the Temper, Orpheus, Phoenix. But those are very neutral, not "hard". Great products, IMO. You might get a Phoenix within your price range, used. Don't include the Glider in your shopping list; it's not in the same class with the others, IMO. On the MM side, you might find an Acutex to your liking, also very neutral.
By the way, this can go on forever. We pitch cartridges, and you hit them out of the park, along with the advice. But that's your privilege. |
Lewm, perhaps I did not say it explicitly, but what I'm thinking of is to try to mix the oposites: euphonic pre with a "harder" cart. I do like 834. I want to see
what it does with a more agressive cart. If this approach is a dead end or not I do not know. I hope not.
"starting with the EMT turntable, tonearm, and cartridge, you were bound to end up with their combined sonic signature on your music"
This is exactly something I'm trying to diversify by mounting the second arm and the cart. My vision is to have 929 + TSD15sph as a sort of "romantic" combo and a second combo, more ...hmm...complex let's say. For the 2nd arm, the 930 will serve only as a table, there will be no more EMT stuff in the chain. Why 3012R? Simply by reputation, reasonable price, and an occasion to buy one in a perfect shape.
Borrowing parts...albeit living in one of world's most well known cities, I feel like I'm in a sort of a technological desert ;) What I do think of doing is to try different SUT's, e.g. Dave Slagle |
Hi Bydlo, your Serbo-Croation is much better then your carts understanding. BTW never thought about to test or check any cart by listening to it? Ostensive investigation
make only sense regarding the (broken) cantilevers and (wear out) styli. You may need a magnifting glass btw.
You, I assume, know that all FR-7 kinds are second hand?
Aka: 'used underwear'. Look in your Serbo-Croatian dictionary under 'fetish'.
Regards, |
I have been following this thread for a few days. My first reaction to your post, Bydlo, is that you are asking the wrong question. By starting with the EMT turntable, tonearm, and cartridge, you were bound to end up with their combined sonic signature on your music, for good or ill. (I make no judgement at all; I have never heard any of those products.) Then, by using the EAR 834 phono stage, you have stamped the sonics with the euphonic sweetness of that device. It is my second hand impression that the EMT stuff may also be a bit on the euphonic side. That may be the crux of your "problem". IMO, there is a good chance you will not get where you want to go, if you insist on the EAR 834 as your phono stage. At least I recommend try another more neutral phono stage (borrowed?) before you spend on a new cartridge. If a known more neutral phono stage does not help, then you can look farther back up the chain toward the cartridge/tonearm/turntable. Apparently you like vintage stuff. I do, too. Was there some reason you chose the SME 3012R as your second tonearm? |
U picku materinu, Balkan am I not, but I do know a few tasty phrases in Serbo/Croato/Bosnian (how do you call this language after the fall of Yu?) and Bulgarian, so Nandric beware ;-)
Comming back to the subject (which is carts and not personal attacks, Nandric): the obvious canon seems SPU-SME and FR-FR.
I briefly tried simulating 3012-FR7 interaction via this great tool:
http://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?t=36347
I get something: a peak at 7.7Hz, OK, an alert that VTF should be 3.17g instead of 2g...a bit of a mess... |
Dear Halcro, the Dutch have this proverb:'protect me my
Lord from my friends I will protect myself from my enemy'. |
Bydlo,
I have no experience with the SME 3012R arm so cannot comment on its ability to handle the FR-7 series cartridges.
Please don't be upset with my friend Nandric.......he is Balkan.
That should explain everything?!
He is blessed/cursed with a sense of humour which is sardonic, sarcastic.....but inevitably keen and meaningful.
Perhaps it also suffers slightly from the translation to English?
I'm sure he will be mad at me for suggesting that mostly........he doesn't mean to offend anyone? |
Byldo, by 'deviating from the subject' you of course mean as deviating from the subject as teterminated by you which means for me: I rest my case. |
Dear Nandric, I have no idea what makes so angry and why you insist on deviating from the subject. I do not "demand" anything, I'm simply curious. If there are no answers to my Q's, ok, no problem, it means there are some gaps in the common pool.
If you feel that I should kiss your ... for you generously posting in this thread, then thank you very much and maybe do not post? |
Bydlo, You get advice for free but you think that you can
demand the answers according to your own preference. Like
the public 'servant' I already mentioned. You can ,you know what... |
Pani, not at all: my topis is general as it's stated in the 1st post. I'd be somewhat interested in those sonic impressions too. |
Nandric, I think you are very much off the topic of the current thread and I have no idea what made you start this personal attack. Perhaps you should think about your very self?
I group the Q's which popped up within the thread, perhaps there is somebody who may know something, unlike you obviously:
--how does one recognize that a given FR7 specimen is within it's specs, not being familiar with FR7 sound?
--does FR7 match SME3012R?
--what would be aright price for a good FR7?
--how does SPU and TSD families relate sonically, esp. Royal N vs. TSD15SPH, if anything is known?
If they are self-serving "contra Q's for each Q" or "peculiar", I leave to judge the others.
Ahh, and thank you very much for your advice with using Ebay & Paypal...indeed ingenious!
BTW The person I mentioned started his PM with the quoted statement. I did not ask him any hard Q's nor actually wanted to. I've found this behavior sort of bizzare, but I do not care...everybody has his/her own style.
|
Though it is not my thread if Bydlo doesnt mind, can someone please describe the signature sound of FR7/f/fz carts ? I tried googling for a review but just couldnt find any and these cartridges are very expensive even in the used market so it is not even a case where one can buy to try out. In the end there is definitely some risk in buying a cartridge which is no more in production but still some useful user reviews can always make for a better buying decision. Anyone please ? |
Bydlo, The person who asked you not to ask any Q's should
induce you to think about yourself. You are difficult to
satisfy , obviously. Like a public servant who invents
contra questions for any question asked. You should buy whatever cart on ebay and pay via paypal. You will get ebay protection this way. Not sure about the USA but in
Europe this work this way. The payment is blocked for 21
days to give the buyer the time for complaint. This of course means that the 'protection' is at the cost of the seller but is good ad for ebay. |
Halco, Nandric, I have no idea about the persons you are mentioning, apart from one of them kindly sending me some useful info via PM and then asking not to ask him any Q's again as he will not reply... IIRC, he was/is some automotive consultant, hence the automotive analogies???
(BTW, I do not deal with underwear...used nor new ;-))
Anyway, it seems that getting FR7 is sort of an underground activity in some gnostic circle...Again, having a cart in my hand how would I know if it's ok or I'm being fooled?
Also, what is the right price?
Halcro, my arm is SME3012R. So, hypothetically thinking, would it be "appropriate"?
Thanks! |
Bydlo, The right persons for this peculiar question are:
Dertonarm, Thuchan and Syntax. Probable Raul also but I am not sure if he owns /owned the FR-7fz. Our brilliant Aussie owns the 'lesser' FR-7f. I think that FR-7fz has also a higher output: 0,24 mV. However 'our Aussie' consider his FR-7f as one of the best in his 'exclusive' ranking of 5 in his (huge) collection . |
Bydlo,
There has been a strong second hand market for the FR-7 range of cartridges for some time now.
The good ones seem to be sold to waiting buyers without much advertising?
Having been through the process myself......I really wouldn't worry too much about the condition of the stylus or cantilever?
If the price is right........I would snap it up and send it to Axel who will install a new nude line contact stylus pressure-fitted into a new aluminium cantilever for EUR160.00.
The 7Fz differed to the 7f by having an elliptical stylus rather than a conical one I believe........so I think you'll be pleased with the results?
You of course do need an appropriate tonearm to handle one of these beauties?
Good luck. |
You might consider a decca MI (or an ikeda cart, which are based on the same design principles as the deccas) - as fast and dynamic are what these carts are renkowned for.
Not sure how well it might match the 3012R though... |
Pani, "better" is a very tricky word here. What is better for me may be worse for you, you know. One candidate I was looking at was SPU Royal N (without the resonating box which may or may not be responsible for upper bass/lower mids colour), but again since EMT derives from SPU how different it would be?
Halcro, there is now FR7fz on the known site. Imagine I'd like to buy it. What should I look at to see if the cart is as it should be? What are the checkpoints? Also, how would it fit SME3012R? |
By the way, what do you think of the TSD15 super fine line version ? |
Cartridge that is fast, has a big sound and better than TSD15 under 1.2k Euros ? I do not know of any modern cart that fits all these criteria, but pleeeese if you do find one, dont forget to post it here on the thread. I will also love to own a cartridge with similar sonics. Seriously! |
Halcro, yes VW's have always been reliable, simplicity is the key. I would rather have your 356 than any 911. I ran an Audi Quattro Turbo Coupe ( the real one ) for a few years and it handled way better than anything they make today apart from maybe the RS4. |
Well, I don't know if the automotive analogies, which seem to be a kind of standard here, are applicable and for sure do not appeal to me. Let me explain.
I have no problem with old used cars, or used TT's (mine 930 has worked in Yugoslavian radio for example). We all know
what a "programmed obsolescence" is and it has become a modern standard, but anyway with carts I do not feel safe buying 2nd hand. Carts are obviously much more delicate and the precision scale is orders of magnitudes higher than cars. Buying 2nd hand one never knows what the previous user(s) was doing with the cart, how are the magnets, suspension, etc etc and the stylus condition is only one but not the only one variable. So the bottom line is that there would be no warranty that the cart is within it's original specs (save the stylus). I have no experience with FR7 so judging by ear if the cart is as is should be would not be possible.
An eventual rebuild is also a tricky business.
Even well established cart manufacturers do have problems here. I sent my TSD15 to EMT for a complete rebuild and it came back tracking and distorting worse than a DJ cart abused all it's life with scratching! They had to rebuild it 2nd time... |
Used underwear?........I dunno.
Used Classic car?.........oh yeah!,
I bought my 1963 Porsche 356B Super 30 years ago and drove it every day to and from work for 25 years.
It is the best car I have ever driven ( and I have had current Mercs. BMWs, and Audis also for 30 years).
I bought an FR-7f which had a poor stylus and had it replaced by an expert in Tokyo who replicated the original conical configuration.
Setup in an FR-66s tonearm......it bettered all my previous high-end (expensive) cartridges except for the ZYX UNIverse.
When that new stylus inexplicably exploded one day......I sent the cartridge to Axel who recommended replacing it with a nude line contact pressure-fitted into an aluminium cantilever.
The performance of the FR-7f with this stylus easily exceeded the previous original one and can be heartily recommended. |
Bydlo, 'used underwear' may appeal to some persons but I
don't believe that any person who buy second hand carts
has this assotiation. The FR-7 series are made to last.
But of course the stylus need to be substituted from time
to time. You may be interested inwhat Halcro has to say about his which is just retipped by Axel in Germany (MM thread, Halcro 04-27-12) |
Nandric, they are available only used right? This is something I'd like to avoid...just like buying used underwear ;) What is sort of surprising is that it seems
there is little verbalized experience on TSD vs SPU carts. Or does it confirm that sonically both families are relatives so there is nothing to talk about? |
You may also consider the FR 7 series (7,7f,7fz). Some
respected members are very impressed (Dertonarm,Halcro,etc)
while they are a kind of bargain. Besides can be retipped
by Axel with even better styli. |
Let me pharase it differently: is there any interesting cart in the 1-1.2kEu range which would: 1) match SME3012R 2) be "harder", more agressive than TSD15?
Cheers,
--b |
If you like the SPU style carts, why not engage Ortofon in deciding which one would suit you best. They are a major investment so I would want to get there advice and possibly a trial run of some sort before the deal is finalized. I may be living in a fantasy world but who knows? If you establish yourself as a serious customer what kinds of accomodations may be offered? |
