TT,
What class D amps have you tried and what was the rest of the systems?
ALso what Class AB amps specifically?
I do not find the Class D amps in my rig match what you describe. Maybe I'm missing something, but I have heard a lot of good reference systems for comparison.
Of course, we all are entitled to our opinions.
If you do not want a big amp and don;t like Class D, then Macrojack had a good recommendation. |
"Jazzcourier ... My McCormack DNA-500 just destroyed the best from Wyred I had sitting here in my system ... Not even close... at all ;-)"
OK.
All that means is you prefer the McCormack.
Nothing more. |
"Nobody has mentioned the NAD M2,anyone had a listen to this one?"
No but it is on my want to hear list.
Realize that this is a true digital integrated that includes a Class D power amp and is all digital in front of that (except for analogue inputs that are converted to digital internally). So this is a slightly different but related beast. |
Tim,
If you want Class D to sound good to you bad enough, maybe try building your system around a Class D amp of choice.
That would give you a better chance than plugging one into what you have currently and like and expecting that it will sound the same or better.
I went Class D because it fit the bill perfectly for what I needed in my rig at the time, especially the big full range power hungry OHMs that mainly benefit from the juice. So I too have a basis to compare.
The amps sound great to me on the Dynaudio monitors as well (hard to fault in any way for their size), but for those alone there are many amps that can fit the bill.
Most speakers I have heard that use ribbon tweeters would probably benefit from an A/B amp like the McCormack or similar than most Class D amps I suspect.
My expectation is most Class A/B amps in this discussion will tend to have a hotter top end than CLass D, at least Icepower. That is one difference I notice between the two.
Of course, different people hear the top end differently and that also changes with age which can also be a factor in what kind of amp sounds best.
You are making a mistake by dissing all Class D amps categorically though just because you like the sound of others in your system.
As has been pointed out, all amps are different and will have different perceived strengths and weaknesses.
My ears tell me Class D amps can be in the same league as their older brethren already these days but YMMV. |
Atmas,
Thanks for that clarification on tube amps.
Class D amps are not tube amps though so I am not sure why Spectron groups tube and other Class D amps together in any technical discussion other than to assert that their products are superior to both for similar reasons, which does not seem like a viable argument. There are many factors that go into end sound quality as has been discussed ad infinitum here and elsewhere. So pointing out a single technical characteristic and attributing good sound or not to that alone does not carry much weight for me, especially when I ears tell me I should not care.
It is a typical marketing ploy though, so Spectron is not uniquely guilty of anything new there. It is what it is. |
"I still own a tube amp, linear solid state, and two switching amps. and I'm sorry none of them sound like the other contrary to all the, "sounds like a tube amp," statements one reads."
Exactly.
Most all gear sounds different, especially when radically different technologies and design approaches are applied.
And that's why it is not a sound approach to swap in a piece of gear into a system you already think sounds right and then lament that it is not as good when it sounds different. If you want to get back to that original sound, there will be more changes required to do it.
My gut tells me that in general Icepower and ribbon tweeters may not be a good combo in that both tend to lean towards a non fatiguing (not "hot") top end. Too much of a good thing in combo perhaps? Whereas Class A A/B amps may deliver a relatively "hotter" top end in comparison and have a nice synergy with ribbon tweeters for many.
I can say I have found the BEl Canto ref1000m IcePower monoblocks do have a nice synergy with my Dynaudio monitors (isotar tweeter I think) which can tend to be a tad hot on the top end compared to some other monitors in general.
Same with the soft dome tweeters used in the OHM Series 3 CLS drivers used in the Walsh 100 and 5 series 3, more full range, speakers, which are a notch less hot on the top end relative to the Dyn monitors, I find.
My Dyns and OHMs can be both run concurrently in adjacent rooms of my system. I have had many opportunities to hear both with several radically different amps in my system over the last few years, so that is largely the basis for what I relate. |
Listening to my Bel Canto ref1000m Icepower monoblocs, I have no idea what that comment on the Spectron website quoted above is talking about or what the basis for the negative description of the sound of other Class D amps is based on.
Must have been put together by the marketing guys...... |
Dob,
Gotta disagree.
"In reality this deviation acts as both an annoyance and murky veil. In exchange for euphonic, overly rich harmonic texture (of absolutely artificial origin) the listener gets no transparency and a lower level of true detail"
I hear none of this with my Class D, regardless of whetehr or not the technical details regarding the distortion related apply categorically to all Class Ds or not ( I do not know the answer to this).
Prior to Class D, I had various class A and a/b amps. The Class D is the best transparency and detail and least amount of murkiness of any I have heard and compares to teh best I have heard elsewhere, so that subjective and unsubstantiated statement is not true based on my experiences. |
I had a Musical Fidelity A3CR (Class A Stereophile rated FWIW) prior to the Bel Canto ref1000m monoblocks.
When I first listened to the BC's, the sound was so different from prior that I thought something was wrong. My ears were totally disoriented. We're talking night and day difference in the sound, not just something slightly different.
So these two amps sounded totally different. If you are sold on the sound of one, you will not likely take to the other without adjusting your listening habits along with whatever else. I found I had to adjust my speaker location a bit as well with the BCs in order to best deliver the new, big and well defined soundstage.
After a while I was able to discern a few key differences in the sound.
1) the BC were less hot and quite non-fatiguing in comparison
2) the BCs had a more open and dimensional soundstage which was perhaps the one thing that made most everything else sound different.
3) at first, the bass seemed to be gone with the BCs, then once my ears adjusted to the new soundstageI was able to detect that it was really there in spades and with much improved impact and nuance but again now within a much more open and 3-d soundstage |
My theory, at least for the better icepower Class D amps out there, is that one may have to have a setup that is capable of doing imaging and soundstage really well in order to appreciate these amps fully.
I have several speakers set up in several rooms running off my system. The Class D amps differentiate themselves best from what I had before in my two better rooms in this regard. In the other two, the differences are nominal, and in my worst room in this regard, one used more for casual background listening with less power hungry speakers, I do not hear any clear improvement with the BCs. |
DAn9,
What was the rest of the system you tried the Class D amps with? |
"On the other hand it would be hard to find 2x1000W class A amplifier to compete with BC Ref 1000 not only for monetary reasons but also for power requirements (10kW@110V=91A)"
Not to mention size and weight.
I pay no attention to this sounds better than that discussions. There are many viable high quality options. You just have to pick and chose. Everyone has different wants/needs/requirements.
The undeniable advantages of Class D is size, weight and power consumption. Also frequently, but not always, cost. That matters to some (like me) and not others.
I do not expect any new amp technology to sound radically better than older technologies categorically these days. There is a limit to how good any system can sound, usually determined most by source material and listening room characteristics.
I will say that the clear benefits of Class D are of the most significance when compared to similar high powered monster amps.
In cases where smaller, lowered powered Class A or Class A/B amps suffice, Class D amps may still suffice as well but they tend to lose their distinct advantages. |
I replaced a 120 w/ch Musical Fidelity A3CR with the 500w/ch BelCanto ref1000m monoblocks.
This was primarily for the benefit of my big OHM F5 series 3 speakers, the largest and most power hungry I own also in teh largest room.
In my case, the difference in performance I can hear is clearly in line with the difference in specs, so my findings in my case differ from Ckoffend's case.
The BC ref1000m monoblocks also seemed to benefit my smaller OHM 100S3s and my Dynaudio Contour 1.3mkII monitors as well, although to a lesser degree with the smaller speakers.
I also run a pair of little Realistic Minimus 7's off the Bel Canto amps on my deck. The sound here is top notch for those little speakers as well compared to prior amps, but the practical difference with such small speakers in that application is practically nill. |
I also used to own a 1970's vintage Class G Hitachi sr803 receiver for many years. Class G is an older similar but much different relative of Class D.
The Class G amp there clearly exhibited its advertised ability to deliver double its rated 50w/ch for only brief periods. THough it had some guts for a smaller 50w receiver, it did not perform as well as its true 100w/ch brethren of the time. That sound was quite meh, nothing even close to the modern bar set by the better modern amps. |
Correction:
The Class G Hitachi receiver I owned was a sr-804, not an sr-803. |
I'll add that my OHM F5s are about as power hungry as they come. I bought the Bel Canto ref1000ms as a low or no compromise solution for reasonable cost. I like to play music that should be loud, loud. The BC has fit the bill perfectly. They are the first amps I have tried (of 3) that have never run out of steam no matter what I do. THe music just continues to expand and inflate as I increase the volume to whatever high level might be needed. No signs of stress or distortion and one often does not even realize how loud things are until you try to hear somebody near you talk.
I cannot find any fault. Some might prefer a more lively top end I suspect, but the top end is all there quite nicely. That's about it. |
"Continuos power rating doesn't make much sense anyway since average music power delivered is only few percent of the peak."
I think that is the essence of how a switching amp is able to achieve the performance levels it does in such a small and energy efficient package.
Regardless of design, in the end, its all in the execution. How well does a product do its thing. The better Class D amps these days would seem to indicate that the answer is "really good", even if not to everyone's particular taste. |
"No signs of stress or distortion"
- that might be due to line and load regulated power supply in your REF1000."
I'm thinking that is a part of it. At least I'm hoping so because I know that is the main reason I opted to pay a hefty premium for the BC ref1000ms rather than go with other similar designs for a lot less. |
