I believe I've got a source for brass cartridge bolts and will confirm tomorrow.
The Mapleshade AC cord must be wired into the switch, or alternatively can be simply crimp fit onto the cut and spliced stubs of the existing cord. |
Check out my system and then contact me directly if you want to find out more about what I did and how and why with my Ariadne Signature. |
At some point I'm going to construct a different arrangement for the motor. Channelling the motor vibes into the shlef is not the right way to handle this and that's what I'm currently doing. I want to make a matching corian and lead housing. I may also replace the motor with a less vibration prone one with accompanying circuitry. |
Anyone know the thread size for cartridge screws. I'm having an amazingly hard time finding out, calling everyone I can think of who might know. I believe, at least the ones I use for my Benz based Cardas Heart, are metric. |
Crem1,
what is special about this particular table, and yours, as opposed to other Ariadnes?
Oilmanmojo,
would you care to share the "letter from Lloyd Walker outlining potential improvements to the table"?
Also, for anyone interested, Oilmanmojo has another thread re: air compressors for air bearing TT, where I've outlined what I've done to my Signature Ariadne.
Incidentally, I just replaced the motor mount to great effect. I had had it mounted outboard atop two long bolts attached to the lead motor mount I had removed from the plinth which was attached to three Mapleshade Heavyfeet. This arrangement allowed the vibrations in the motor to resonate considerably and be passed noticably into the belt and shelf. I replaced this with a 3 inch diameter cardboard mail tube section bracketed with 1" thick cherry wood end caps with the motor screwed to the top one and a 2"x2" steel block inside acting as a weight to anchor the thing. Lead shot with a bit of sand will be replacing the steel as soon as I can lay hands on some. The difference in the sound was noticable with a lowering of the noise floor and cleaner focus and dynamics. |
sounds like I've already done all of Lloyd's suggestions. I had gotten my 'noll new from Bob Dilger and had quite a lot of input about it both from him and Pierre and Lloyd, all of whom are friends of mine. I've used super glue rather than epoxy and my VTA bracket is machined out of solid aluminum with an integral bottom plate. Filling the counterweight tube with mortight was the first tweek I did. I had forgotten to mention it as it was so long ago. |
Crem1,
you're nuts!
Of course, you knew that but...
Seriously though, what did you notice with your variable pipe cleaner damping? |
I'm with ya, Crem. Very interesting observations re: the damping. I'll try it and see what I think. I have had some issues with stridency/tracking that I was trying to tackle, with some luck, by increasing damping. I have revisited that recently though after I had addressed some other issues that may have been more to the point.
I'm not in the neighborhood but used to be, so visits are semi regular. I know Bob, Lloyd and Pierre as a dealer and Pierre as a musician and fellow recordist. I primarily run with the musicians rather than the audiophiles when I'm back East. No high roller, I'm into efficiency, like you, minus a few years. I'm also an instrument maker so maybe I'll try my hand at a 'noll style clamp made of African Blackwood like the the Shun Mook. I much prefer the flattening of a clamp to that of a weight. |
been outa town. no tape, tried to true it up and left some marks. I'll get you some pics within the next couple days. still workin on the screws. found the motor was fine when mounted properly. |
I use Acrotec 46ga 6N, single strand per leg. It's a pain to deal with without breaking, and soldering can be tricky, but it's worth it. If you sand the ends with 600 grit gently before soldering you'll have better luck. Michael Percy sells it. |
Oilman, I think you'll find a PSI of twice what you're using will work much better.
Just to clarify, re: Lloyd's letter, the signature arm that I have has a solid aluminum machined VTA bracket rather than the folded one pictured, the counterweight tube has an aluminum insert rather than plastic and it is flush rather than protruding, and there is no paint on any of the arm parts. |
Crem,
I posted new pics on my system site including a close up of the motor mount. |
Oilman, unfortunately, it's been so long since I've done without the oil trough I couldn't tell you too specifically. The VTF issue has to do with the fact that the oil will "float" the arm a bit and must be compensated for. The best way to do this is to accurately measure the VTF with the oil trough in place AT RECORD LEVEL, meaning your gauge must measure with the stylus at the same height off the platter than the thickness of a record. The VTF should be set for the same as you would without the oil asuming that is the "correct" VTF. As always, fine tuning by ear is the thing. Theoretically speaking, VTA should be "right" with or wthout the oil but again fine tuning by ear is the answer. In general I'm guessing you'll notice an increase in transparancy throughout the whole range that goes along with better tracking. You might want to experiment with different amounts of oil, being sure to adjust VTF accordingly. Good luck! |
I believe I got you the first time but it still doesn't follow for me. If you don't use the pin to lock in the position of the overhang adjustment guide, anchoring the guide only at the platter spindle, overhang remains your only adjustment that effects tangency so long as you adjust the guide to the appropriate angle of the arms traverse. By definition, tangency is defined only by arm traverse and overhang.
BTW, Bob was famous for his casual approach to details of execution. I have done quite a bit to clean up my 'noll, as you know. |
congratulations! I'll be very curious to find out more details. |
Chazro,
the Athena you describe having had was a far cry for the later models which got less and less tweeky. They, as well as virtually any table, still get better given a willingness to get your hands dirty. |
Below are the specs from the website on the DR 500:
Super Silent compressors are virtually "noiseless" and are totally automatic. Each unit includes a tank and line pressure gauge, line pressure regulator, moisture trap-filter-gauge, safety-valve, air intake filter and a carrying handle.
1/2 HP
1 1/2 Gallon Tank
2.0 CFM Free Air - 50% Duty Cycle
40 dB/a
114 PSI Op-Pressure
Voltage: 110 V-60
Shipping Weight: 53 lbs
The SQP came with an oak box with a brass screen on the top. The oil for the trough is common motor oil; not sure about the grease for the platter bearing.
The belt size depends on whether you have the older style with the belt going around the subplatter or the later style with it going around the platter itself. Simply measuring it and ordering the closest thing you can find on the internet is what I have done for customers who have required a replacement. As I have removed the motor from the plinth I have gone to dental floss. Pierre at Mapleshade recommends silk thread. Lloyd Walker uses silk ribbon. Thom Makris uses video tape if I'm not mistaken. |
That's my plan as well. The problem is that the two of them take too much air and it's hard to get the pressure up sufficiently on the arm. Mine's running about 35 psi and I'd like to get it over 45. |
The platter size shouldn't matter. I'm not sure how to answer the rest of question though. |
"off" in what parameter? Horizontal is controlled by left and right cones under the plinth. Tangency is controled by headshell/cartridge/overhang adjustments. Am I missing something? |
'smy experience too. What pump 'dyou get? |
Thanks Oilman. I've been meaning to get a second pump but didn't want to spring for a serious one. |
The operative here is how you use the overhang adjustment guide. If you use it the way I do, only in relation to the arm traverse and spindle, the issue you're talking about becomes irrelevent, in that the only thing that matters is whether the cartridge is aligned with the arm traverse and the spindle, not to the plinth. |
Crem,
sorry to be out o touch. I'm on the road and not near internet.
The suggestion was to fill the existing air bearing tube with snug fitting balsa. Using wood for the bearing is not an option due to tolerance issues. |
I have, over time, re-aligned my manifold several times when I have worked on the table, but only for asthetic reasons. Again, if you use the alignment pin to anchor the right end of the overhang guide, then what you're saying is correct. I am just pointing out that it is possible to not anchor the guide with the pin and, although it is slightly trickier, you can align the overhang and tangency by swiveling the alignment guide, anchored only at the spindle end, at the same time as moving the cartridge on the headshell until the stylus is aligned all the way along the line, while keeping the alignment guide stationary, once you've found the appropriate position. Although this is evidently tricky to communicate, it is quite easy to do and precludes having to make the adjustment you're talking about.
Sorry to invoke such long winded confusion. I just thought it was worth mentioning. |
What is the difference between the cheap $10 aquarium pumps from Walmart and the Renn? |
Answering my own question, I got one of the cheap pumps from Walmart and it didn't budge my platter; not enough psi I guess. |
I have never found the oil trough position to be a problem but I am the opposite of all thumbs. However, Lloyd insists, despite Pierre's and Bob Dilger's insistence to the contrary, that the trough sounds better behind the arm rather than at the cartridge end; thus Lloyd's positioning on his Proscenium.
BTW, super glue is particularly usefull because of it's capillary action insinuating itself into the otherwise inaccessable wee spaces within the arm joints. Strength per se is not the issue. Firming an already strong but possibly resonant joint is.
Dampening the arm is not necessarilly a good idea. Over dampening and killing dynamics and liveliness is a clear and present danger. |
"that can easily be adjusted for hangover."
I can recommend an easy adjustment for increased "hangover" but the decrease of same is not so easy. But then maybe you meant "overhang." ;-)
Seriously though, you may find that suspending the airbearing manifold on the z-lift is a sonic compromise. Bob Dilger made a few mega tables with separate plinths for platter, arm and motor and was surprised at the improvement. If you could make an arrangement where the manifold was mounted on its own massive plinth which was then mounted on the z-lift I think you'd find an improvement but you'd probably have to make a new platter pinth as well to accomodate the logistics. |
Congratulations! sounds very cool. I'd love to see a good picture of the Z lift arrangement.
.008 is quite thick and may have adverse effects on tone arm movement. The wire I use is much thinner than even .003. It is a pain to work with but worth it. |
Oilman,
Looks very interesting. You may want to experiment with the angle of your counterweight. Lloyd recommends either down or even depending on the weight of the cartridge but never up. |
you've inspired me to rethink my arm as well. I'm thinking of reversing the direction of the arm and make it very short ala the rare Maplenoll Apollo but mounting it on a separate plinth with a VTA adjustment dial on the back end in the form of the third cone support. the only vulnerability of this design is that warped records change VTA because of the short arm but rigidity is greatly enhanced. I'll draw a picture and post a picture. |
Oilmanmojo,
what are the specs on the Renn pump? |
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Thanks Crem. Keep fighting the good fight. I'll be thinking about it as well. My guess is that there are too many conflicting theories to rely on any one for your direction so intuition and experimentation are likely to pay off better; and the proof is in the music, not in the tapping. Remember that evacuation of resonances can be more important than damping, at least in certain places. Determining which are which and how to best implement will be key. Removing the motor is big, and I still want to build a separate plinth for the arm as well. Good luck. |
Another tweak that Bob Dilger told me about way back when is to turn a piece of balsa wood so to fit snugly inside the air bearing tube to dampen resonances there. One could do the same for the arm tube itself. I never did either. Another is to put all connections, splitters, valves, plenums, filters, etc, upstream of the bulk of the air tubing so that air turbulence resonances are smoothed out by the time they reach the arm. The platter is not so sensitive to this. I'm sure we can do much better than the stock Hurst motor, not to mention adding electronics to minimize resonances. |
The reason for using Balsa is to keep the overall weight low. Bear this in mind when choosing an alternate material. Perhaps using very high pressure (more than 60PSI) precludes this concern. |
Re: arm tube resonance control, Bob pointed out to me years ago that, yes, you could make the arm less resonant by simply slipping an O ring onto it, but that it killed dynamics. Choose your poison. |
As you know,the Signature Ariadne has a much better plinth of corian and lead. |
Crem,
FYI, no MDF in the sig plinth; solid corian and lead. great work! |
One nagging concern of mine as I hear of your progress is about all your attention to damping. I'm not here to tell you what's right. I don't think there is such a thing, but I would bear in mind that there seems to be an inverse relationship of damping of resonance to evacuation of same through rigid undamped coupling, two examples of this being Rega and Mapleshade. The profuse use of lead on the 'Noll reflects the choice of relatively rigid damping as opposed to sorbothane or even paint. I'm guessing that the application of clay will have effects that are perceived as positive, but possibly at the expense of clarity and dynamics. After you've gotten used to the sound of your "new" 'Noll, you may want to try removing the clay and see what you hear. In the mean time I wouldn't assume that more is better in every application. My intuitive sense is to prioritize evacuation first and then damping/isolation down stream such as in isolating the platform that the table sits on from the stand that it in turn sits on. It's a subtler example of focusing on rigidity within a table/arm and having the whole thing then suspended. |
I would highly recommend while you're at it to investigate rebuilding your existing platters (both of you) to heavier platters. Mine is 90# and was a significant improvement in speed stability and bass solidity. The two parameter that need to adjusted to suit this are the oil trough height and the arm height. The oil trough height is adjusted by procuring longer mounting bolts available from any good hardware store. The arm height is adjusted by either the VTA bracket or using longer manifold standoffs.
Oilman, removing the motor was definitely an improvement and not very difficult to accomplish if you're at all handy and have the tools. I can make a mount for you if you like. Perhaps I can work up a design that improves on mine and make three of them. I've considered sourcing a motor and housing from one of the many turntable manufacturers that sue stand-alone motors. |
I believe I could make a lead platter with a bit of work, especially if I had one to build up from. IOW, take an existing 50# platter and add a layer of lead by creating a casting form that extends its perimeter and then truing it up on a milling machine. It may even be preferable to simply build up the edge inch or so and leave the inner dimensions. This would only work on the later models that used a higher speed motor and perimeter belt rather than riding the belt on the bearing subplatter which this version would obscure from access.
Re: the motor mount, I'm thinking the easy way would be to use 3" diameter PVC pipe, glue a hard plastic cap into the top with holes for the spindle and mounting bolts, screw another into the bottom with a hole for the wire, and fIll it with lead shot. |
The "stock super quiet pump" puts out about 45 psi in this application, which is sufficient if not absolutely optimum. Mine has worked flawlessly for over 16 years with minimal upkeep. |
Crem,
just back from RMAF and back in the saddle. Still very busy but exploring ideas for motor mounts. I'll be redoing mine and in the process refine my ideas for yours. I'm also considering a Teres Verus motor/rim drive, available in two heights: 4.3" or 6.1". Could be an interesting way to go. |
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It's pretty simple. You just need to remove the bolts that hold the lead motor mount plate and create some sort of mounting for it that can be positioned at the correct height to accommodate the belt going over the plinth and under the platter, assuming that your pulley is designed to work with the subplatter rather than the platter itself. If it is the higher speed motor that interfaces with the platter rather than the subplatter then it is easier. In either case you must find or make a much longer belt and possibly a different pulley to accommodate it. I use a thread but have heard good things about audio tape. Either one requires turning a new pulley, which I've done on my lathe. Obviously getting the size exactly right is critical for speed accuracy unless you have a speed controler. I'll be constructing such a motor mount soon for Crem1. |
yes. It helps to have a very heavy bottom on the mount. I started using 3 large brass cones and then when I went with the mail tube casing I inserted a large chunk of steel to be eventually replaced with lead shot. The string is more rigid than the rubber belt but I couldn't do a direct comparison seeing as the repositioning of the motor necessitated using a belt that was far longer than any rubber one I've been able to find. I've considered getting one of AJ Conti's precision ground super thin rubber belts from Basis to try it. He swears by them, in contrast to the common wisdom that rubber belts are the work of the devil. The large lead platter should take care of some of the various issues at stake. |
Let us know if and when you find a good source for the granite look corian as I also have plans for ancillary plinths, for the arm and motor.
Also, beware of too much arm dampening both from the stand point of over damping per se and as regards unnecessary dielectric losses. |
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