just heard that Classe Audio closed their doors...
If true, it would be disappointing but hardly surprising. The demise of the market for cdp's did them in I think. Their amps and preamps never caught on and they tried to go mostly-all-in with HT gear. I suspected at the time it was the beginning of the end. FWIW, Classe imo borrowed heavily from Steve McCormack on their amp designs. I still own a Classe CDP.5 I bought new shortly after it came out- it served me well until I went the route of an Aurender N100H and an AMR DP777. |
I screwed up showing that I was quoting. Not hard to figure out though😁 |
Whitecamaross- you have an ARC Ref 6 and you are hesitant to try it with the Ref 150se that will inherently be a great match and your hesitation is based on spending $900 (not 1300) after 3000 hrs of listening? In the context of your other expenditures that's a head-scratcher. But forget all that for now-I would bet the ranch that whatever you are searching for with all these amp swaps could be solved/found with careful analysis of your room and speaker placement. Spend some money to save a lot more money; contact Jim Smith of Get Better Sound for a personal "fitting" of your room and room treatment and speaker placement. Hire someone else if you want. Or keep chasing the wrong squirrel if that's your preference. I don't mind-it's fun watching someone else spend a lot of money.
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Whitecamaross-how about posting a pic or two of your back-wall showing your speakers and the wall in between and then one further back from behind your listening chair? Re-reading your OP I see references to multi-channel and HT. Do you have a flat screen between your main speakers? Please tell me "no"!
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The GS150 is sonically identical to the REf150se, same topology and parts, just different layout and casework/meters. I got that info right from the source. I just unboxed my brand new Ref150se last night. Though it looks a bit plain in the pics over the web, in person it's very handsome in an understated way-bigger than I thought too. Coupled with the looks of the Ref 6 they should look great together (and sound great together). I am waiting for my new Ref 6 to come in from ARC. |
Humble Acoustic Zen Adagio's. I like them. |
Fsonicsmith if you roll KT150s in your Ref150se it will sound like the GS 150! kw6, the Ref150se was designed and built around the KT150. It comes with KT150's. As I mentioned earlier in this long thread, I contacted ARC and asked if there was any sonic difference between the Ref 150se and GS150 and the response was that they are sonically identical. Whitecamaross says he was told the GS150 is going to be discontinued. If this is true, one explanation is that most AR buyers are going to do a little research (pun) and can't justify $5000 for meters, easier biasing, and nicer casework. |
@fsonicsmith Are you stocked up on essentials? You might not be leaving your listening room. Congratulations!
So kind of you, thx. I am going to be 58 soon. I used to spend small fortunes on custom made bicycles. I broke my hip in November and suffered some complications that continue. Haven't sold my stable of exotic bikes but decided life is too short to listen to less-than-thrilling gear. I have also decided to invest in a RoomPlay session with Jeff Smith. |
So crazy to me whitecamaross that you've stayed away from good tube amplification for so long. I can't remember if your preamp is the Ref 5se or 6 (or other), but as good as the GS150 is, the Ref 6 is reported by most in the know to be even better. I ordered my Ref 6 a month ago but thanks to summer break and ARC's method of manufacturing batches of one component and then another in 10-piece increments, my Ref 6 only recently arrived at my dealer. I picked it up last night and will hook it up to my brand new Ref 150se tonight. When I picked up my Ref 6, my dealer had it hooked up and running at my request and with other top-tier gear the sound was amazing right out of the box. Are you running balanced from preamp to amp? PC with the GS150? |
Going by the history of this thread, I don’t think OP has ever owned anything more than couple of months. I believe he is a reseller who has been graciously sharing his personal experiences. The end game is to churn high end components for profits. My two cents!
Yes. I suppose it would be rude to ask how much money this journey has cost based upon purchase price vs. resale price. Care to share Whitecamaross? It would likely make me feel better as to how much I just spent :-). |
Since when is "reseller" a bad word? You are mounting a defense to an imagined attack. I envy the deal you got on your Ref 6-congrats. |
Whitecamaross- I missed your McIntosh trial but certainly the vast, vast majority of your journey has been with DC coupled amps and not transformer coupled. As to the latter, ARC advises to ignore the rated impedance of your speaker and try for yourself. The "advice and tips" section of the ARC website is very concise, easy to read, and worthwhile. Impedance curves and phase angles are not linear and is the primary reason that there is an art to matching loudspeaker to an amp. As to the GS150, it will take you for a ride for 200-400 hours before it settles in. There are a boatload of caps in the GS150 and even trannies have to settle in a bit. I fired up my Ref 150se for the first time last night with my Ref 6. The sound over four hours time swung from glorious and detailed with information conveyed that I had never heard before in familiar recordings to a bit hard and rough. At times low end bass was taut and at others, a bit one-note. I heard a huge soundstage at some times and a less pleasant Phil Spector Wall of Sound at others. Clicks and pops on vinyl were a bit startling in their speed and clarity. One of my KT150's is not checking out on my trusty fluke meter as being in the correct range but it is close enough to be operational. KT150s are known to drift all over the place despite careful matching until they have a chance to burn in a bit and even then they can be a pain. ARC may disagree, but I have read elsewhere that a good multimeter (like a Fluke) will render far more accurate readings than using the built-in meters. Again, tube amps require quite a bit more attention than SS. It's like vinyl vs. digital. Want convenience? Stick with digital. But in our hobby there is no getting around the need for some maintenace- cleaning and dressing cable terminations once a year for example. I may have to replace a pair or two of KT150's. Let me repeat-your GS150 will be a roller coaster for an average of two months of regular listening before it's really in it's true "on-song" state as the Brits call it. You say you used to be into muscle cars. The analogy would be that at the highest levels of performance, computer modules, spark plugs, and fuel delivery must be constantly tinkered with. It's not quite that bad with tube amps once you break in the amp. |
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Update on my GS150: i have been listening to this amp for about 2 hours today and i can't put my finger on it, but i find it somewhat "bright" sounding. It almost makes you not able to crank up the music because of the brightness. Do me a favor Whitecamaross and tell me what your source and preamp are and a brief description of your listening room? If you've listed elsewhere in this long thread, I've missed it. Do you have a dedicated two channel room with no flat panel and instead (optimally) a semi-absorbent panel between your speakers on the front wall? With my three sources and my new Ref 6 and Ref 150se I am having no trouble with brightness. Two of my sources are turntables and my digital is an Aurender N100H into an Abbingdon Music Research DP777. I have the uppermost Wireworld USB (Starlight Platinum or something like that-came in quite the fancy aluminum case) into an UpTone Regen with separate linear power supply. I don't claim to be the expert of experts as to component matching but tell me your source, preamp and room description with cabling and I can make an educated guess as to why you're hearing brightness. ARC gear in general ever so slightly attenuates brightness, not the other way around, so something does not make sense. |
Yes, the GS150 should be plugged directly into the wall. Still unclear on the preamp-are you running preamp-less? Are you running the GamuT as a cdp or are you using the digital out into the Oppo or some other dac? I realize that you've had many other amps in the same system but something has to account for the perceived brightness other than the GS150. I am sorry to sound critical, but I think you could do much better in terms of your digital front ends though I certainly think the N100H is great- just the rest.... The GS150 also greatly benefits from a Shunyata HC 20A PC and I saw that you're presently stuck with the stock cord. I am using the stock cord too right now but hope to get my hands on the Shunyata soon.
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Have you considered breakin in the device 24 7 using a break-in CD, or even better, a radio tuner set to some FM interstation hash? You must be a solid state guy! You can't do that with tube amps. They get too hot and should be shut down after 6 hours or so. A small sacrifice to pay, among others, with tube vs. solid state. There are some exceptions with certain tubes like the Nu-vista's employed by Musical Fidelity and low current pre-amp tubes but most power amp output tubes need to be shut down. |
Nirvana is but a fleeting moment before the next tube roll... You can't win... Oh well, tuboholic audiophrenia is A Harsh Mistress *Grins!*
No, I wouldn't go that far. With the Ref150se/GS150 in particular and most other tube amps in general, the tubes break in fairly quickly (within a few hours) and the rest of the amp takes about 200 hours or so, and each usage is successive without falling back as you suggest. My Ref 150se is supposed to go 3000 hours on a set of healthy KT150's so let's be conservative and assume 2000 hours. Beak in is the first 10% of the first set of tubes and there is no break in of any significance with successive tubes. This is based on my experience over 10 years time with tube amps. |
Interesting question. Hmmm let me see. I would say that changing a preamp is far more of an audible change than changing amp. For example, here are 2 possible set ups with relatively efficient speakers:
1. Audio research reference 6 preamp and emotiva sa250 amp
2. Oppo 105d as preamp and a pass Labs amp 350.8
i would say that if the speakers are the same, meaning something of about 93db+, the first set up may best the second set up.
I've come to this conclusion as well-for a few years now-a great preamp is more important than a great amp. This is particularly true when all other gear is at a very high level. With a very basic system-even though high end-there is less reason to focus on the preamp-it can be often be bypassed altogether with a DAC or similar that offers volume and input control. And at the very very high-end, some folks with great systems prefer minimalistic passive volume controls. Harry Weisfeld of VPI for example claims the best preamp is no preamp. But for most systems.... |
The chance of your finding anyone who has had both the ARC gear and the Bel Canto with similar speakers is slim to none. I own the same pre and virtually the same amp (Ref 150se). I believe that generally speaking, the resale value on the ARC gear will be stronger. As you yourself have mentioned, Class D amps are like computers, the technological advances with Class D continues to evolve and what seems to be state of the art and beyond potential improvement now is quickly proven to be temporary and incorrect respectively. You have also mentioned your distaste for having to replace tubes. I believe you have overstated the cost-even from Upscale Audio which tends to be a bit pricier than the competitors, $1000 is more than enough to replace all the amp tubes and they should last two or even three years of average use. You revealed the small, no make that big fortune you have spent on this journey to sample every top amp known to man-in comparison $330/yr is chump change. Some still hate the concept and I understand but believe it to be misguided. The car you drive loses a little life every year, so does just about everything in your home (appliances, carpet, etc) and while I gather you are young, guess what, you are declining physiologically every day after the age of 18 too. Sorry to be a downer, but just ask your doctor. |
Are you running the GamuT as a cdp or are you using the digital out into the Oppo or some other dac? I realize that you've had many other amps in the same system but something has to account for the perceived brightness other than the GS150. I am sorry to sound critical, but I think you could do much better in terms of your digital front ends though I certainly think the N100H is great- just the rest.... I tried to warn you of this earlier in this thread. Don't shoot the messenger but it is apparent you rely far too much on reviews. Reviews are utter bird-cage liner other than from a very select few reviewers. You need a WW Platinum Starlight 7 USB with your Aurender-there is NO substitute-and you need a top notch DAC of which there are any number-you can trust those reviewed by John Atkinson. A tip on DAC's-pick one that has a robust analog output stage-those that have beefy linear power supplies and can be used as excellent preamps. You don't really want to use it as a preamp, but if it has excellent preamp functionality than it is bound to have an excellent analogue output stage. I've mentioned my AMR DP777 but there are many others. |
I'm presently looking for something comparable,any recommendations. Besides the AMR, I would recommend Ayre, Cary, and though not heard, I don't doubt the Mytek Manhattan and Chord Dave are up there at the top. as far as using a Dac as a preamp, I'm not so sure. That's not what I said-please re-read what I DID say. As I've said previously, I too own a Ref 6. For a reason. |
Damping factor/slew rate; one of those things that can be measured but does not matter. When a designer is foolish enough to design for high damping factor, they accomplish it with high degrees of negative feedback/looping which in turn kills off any sense of "aliveness". This is a consumer driven market in which many consumers buy with their eyes (reading measurements) rather than buying with their ears. |
If you go to the What’s Best audio forum and go to the Audio Research forum, you will find a great thread on the audible differences between the Ref 6 and Ref 10. The quick answer is that one was not clearly better than the other and instead, primarily of different character, with the Ref 10 sounding more refined, the Ref 6 sounding more "vibrant and ballsy", the Ref 10 better for classical, the Ref 6 better for rock. I have no experience with Boulder gear, and you and I have completely different tastes in loudspeakers, so I won’t comment further, except to say that I don’t mind venturing a guess that you will lose what I refer to as "tonal density" and maybe gain some transients speed and low end extension with the Boulder pre.
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I have several opinions from different friends of course who claim the ref 10 is probably superior in every way simply because it is a newer design.
Actually, the Ref 6 is the newer design. But that means nothing. The Ref 6 borrows far more from the Ref 10 than the LS28 borrows from the Ref 6. Besides tonal density, you are going to lose some soundstage width and depth, and this is just my educated guess, but imo the Ref 6 to some degree either accentuates or extrapolates a greater sense of soundstage from the input signal. I hope you get the Boulder and tell us for yourself. ARC built it's reputation on it's preamps and Boulder is not known for it's preamps. I look forward to your impressions. |
OK, every time I tell myself to ignore or simply lurk, this insane thread draws me back in. I feel like Al Pacino in Godfather II. I will echo the previous thread. If you are going to keep the ARC Ref 6-and I fully endorse doing so-you have to experiment heavily with XLR cabling from it to whichever amp you choose. See for yourself-each set of XLR's will sound different. One or two will place you in audio-Nirvana assuming the right amp for your speakers.
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Is the Ref 10 new or used? If new, it is going to go through some swings between now and the next 200-300 hours. Also, I am just a tad skeptical that before you ever got close to your listening position you jaw dropped-it just smacks of audio-hyperbole. But I am happy for you and as an ARC fan I can only applaud your good taste in pre-amps, And I agree that you ought to try about five or six top level IC's between the Ref 10 and whichever amp you end up with because as set forth in the "Balanced Cable" thread currently running in which Ralph Karst of Atma-Sphere has posted much valuable information, with ARC preamps the choice of cabling will significantly change the presentation. |
Mikepaul, my system is no-doubt an outlier, but back in July I bought a brand new Ref 6 and Ref 150 SE and then two months later bought a new pair of DeVore 0/93's. I only bring up the "new" nature, because I have gone through the swings of break-in for all three. I was happy but not floored with the match until I tried Cardas Clear Beyond XLR between my preamp and amp and Cardas Clear SC's, I also got a significant bump up on SQ by jettisoning my cheap mdf and re-bar equipment rack and investing in a Symposium Osirus Ultimate on which I have my Ref 6, Manley Steelhead, and AMR DP777 DAC. My amp sits on a 5" thick slab of maple butcher block right now, in front of my rack, but I am planning on investing in Symposium's top amp stand before long. |
Assuming it is not too late, since you are moving into a new home, you may wish to go over to the Whatsbest site and do a search for Myles B. Astor's post about simple things you can do to improve your electricity in your listening room/area. Basically, dedicated lines, heavy gauge romex, all lines to same leg of AC at the panel, good outlets. |
