MP150 or MP200

@fsellet

 From the F9 manual: "Grace deems the F9D a playback standard and recommends it with pride to music lovers, audio enthusiasts and professional users."" The F9P satisfies the extraordinary demands made by professionals, while bringing the F9F quality"

The "D" and "P" styli are conical and can't reproduce extended frequency range as "F" (shibata type or line contact type) invented for quadraphonic records (Discrete-4). 

So the "P" can't bring the quality of "F", the rest in marketing. 

F9F frequency response: 10 - 60 000 Hz
F9P  frequency response: 20 - 20 000 Hz


All those cartridges are from the 70's.

In the 80's Grace made much better cartridges and even their "disco" models were high-end (with beryllium cantilevers). 

You can change the stylus, not a cartridge
Get better nagaoka stylus

The mass of my Project 1 expression 2 carbon fiber tonearm is around 8.6 grams which I understand is on the medium side .

It’s pretty light for a modern world of tonearms

I like the MP110 very much . It’s a very coherent and controlled sound that hardly ever irritates . Its bass is not the most powerful or tight but is in line with the sound spectrum of the cartridge .

Look at the specs, this is entry level cartridge, the diamond is not even "nude", it’s bonded diamond - do you know what does it mean? If you like Nagaoka do yourself a favor and upgrade to the higher model (or find a much better cartridge for the same money). Nagaoka is not even a perfect match for your tonearm I believe, you could check with Hi-Fi Test LP for tonearm/cartridge resonance frequency.

The reason why you like MP110 is probably lack of experience with other MM cartridges.

But do not afraid to buy a better cartridge, each Nagaoka model is step up, for more money you will get "nude" diamond and boron cantilever, for even more you can get a better stylus profile instead of elliptical.

You MP110 is entry level model with bonded elliptical diamond and aluminum cantilever.

Higher model like MP200 comes with NUDE (not bonded) diamond and Boron cantilever. One of the reason the price is much higher. 

Never use youtube as reference in cartridge comparison tests. 

As you said you want to stay with Nagaoka, so you could investigate which compatible stylus you could buy instead of a new cartridge. If you have cash for MP200 go for it. 

In my opinion you can easily find a better high compliance MM cartridge like SONY XL50 with Boron Pipe cantilever, but you want to stay with Nagaoka. 

$500-700 for a great MM cartridge is fair price. 

Sony XL-50 on its dedicated headshell is much better cartridge than Nagaoka MP-200.
It is one of those cartridges that can be found today for reasonable price.
If you have not seen a review for Sony I am not surprised, the XL-50 and XL-70 were the best MM cartridges Sony Sound Tec Corp. ever made (in the 80’s). At that time SONY was pretty serious about analog (cartridges, turntables, tonearms).

SONY established Sony Sound Tec Corporation to produce phono cartridges. Not every equipment manufacturer can make a phono cartridge, but the Sony Sound Tec Corp. combining all the passion and knowledge has released some very interesting models in the early 80’s. The XL-50 is one of two finest Moving Magnet cartridges from SONY. Very special features are as follows: The Joint-less delta-type core; Boron Pipe cantilever and nude Super Elliptical Diamond; A screw holds the stylus holder firmly in place; Distortion caused by flex is virtually eliminated; Cup-shaped damper and tension wire! This lightweight and high compliance cartridge is designed for low mass tonearms. Loading recommended by the manufacturer is from 47k Ohm to 100k Ohm. Cartridge output is 2.0 mV. Frequency response is pretty wide: 10Hz - 50000Hz! The price for XL-50 was ¥25000 in 1981. Boron Pipe cantilever is nothing but a grown crystal of Pure Boron into a pipe configuration (wow). A tip mounting hole made using a laser beam. This technology is no longer available, instead of ultra lightweight PIPE configuration you can get only heavier Boron ROD configuration from cantilever manufacturers nowadays. Boron PIPE is associated ONLY with vintage High-End cartridges (MM or MC). I have two samples of SONY XL-50 and this is an excellent MM cartridge with exotic cantilever!

Nagaoka branded Jeweltone in Japan and all new models are just a versions of the very old design from the 70’s. Jeweltone MP-50 is Nagaoka MP-500. An old Jeweltone/Nagaoka MP-20 is new Nagaoka MP-200. Nothing new here @mijostyn

You know when someone mentioned vintage cartridges I thought of the same thing and up to where I know all cartridges must have some type of suspension as what then supports the cantilever .

Case in point , the mentioned Sony cartridge , when I investigated it goes all the way back to the 70s . I personally would never buy a cartridge that has been sitting on a shelf for 5 decades no less !

We have so many members on this forum (including myself) who’re using vintage cartridges (MM or MC) along with very expensive modern cartridges. If you think that buying a new $5000 MC cartridges you are free of suspension problems then you’re wrong and it’s primarily depend on material used by a cartridge designer. If you think that "all modern" is better than could you please explain me why people are using an old drivers in their speakers, a very old nos tubes in their new high-end amps, vintage turntables paired with modern high-end equipment ?

The best MM cartridges designed in the 70s/80s because it was a hey day of MM technology. Nowadays most of the people have no idea what is a phono cartridge, but for some reason you think that modern MM are any better?

Using over 60 reference class vintage MM/MI cartridges from the 70s/80s I have’t seen more than 2-3 samples with dried or softened rubber suspension. When there is a problem with suspension, a cartridge body lay down on the record in 20 seconds with recommended tracking force (this is very easy to check before buying, and every honest seller will do that for you). If you can’t see this problem then suspension is fine. The rest is a fairy tale to scare people and force then to buy modern junk for higher price. A used audio market is pretty strong and always will be strong (Lightly used or NOS is a matter of luck) @mcmvmx

I tried various samples of SONY XL-50 and never seen this model with softened rubber suspension.  

It’s true, cartridge suspension hardness can change over the years . Even temperture changes on a new cartridge can change its performance on a day to day basis .

Nothing wrong with suspension inside any cartridge from my collection of the best vintage MM at the moment, please explain how it is possible if you think it must degraded in time? They are performing better than brand new cartridges. Many more people on audiogon have seen and heard exactly the same thing, those great MM are just better made than most of the new cartridges. And they can sound better if you know which one to buy (which exact model).

Also if everything is so bad with 30 y.o. suspension that why people are buying those cartridges for very high prices for an old design?

Each time I read something like "don’t buy any vintage MM because the suspension is dried or softened" I know it’s false at least in 99% cases, bought so many of them and (as I said) the worst are Technics MM - this is where the suspension is always dead and a cart is a low-rider and it’s so easy to check before buying, just play one side of the LP.

Anyway, this is just my own experience and I bought all those great cartridges in the past 7 years, not in the 70’s. I am using them right now.  

@uberwalts the ADC is Raul’s favorite, not mine. You gave up pretty quick. In fact the ADC Astrion that Raul liked long time ago was the worst cartridge I even heard. 

Now please tell me do you own or owned any of my top-10 MM that I love and use for a long time against $5000 LOMC

AT-ML180
AT-ML170
Stanton CS-100 WOS
Pickering XSV/5000 or XLZ/7500
Grace LEVEL II BR/MR
Grace F14 Excellent
Grace F14 with Beryllium cantilever
Grado Signature XTZ

As far as i know you never owned any of them, correct me if I’m wrong.

My Favorite MC cartridges are:

Miyajima Kansui
Miyabi MCA
Miyabi Standard
Ikeda 9c III
FR-7fz

Seriously, If you want a stellar MM you (or anyone else) could ask me, not some idiots who's selling defective or worn/broken items cheaper. I only buy perfect samples or NOS samples for my collection. 

You can buy modern replacement styli for vintage cartridges that use modern synthetic rubbers that will last for decades out side. Styli back from the day are probably bad by now. Not only that but quality control was pretty poor back then.

@mijostin you can’t buy modern replacement for most of the best MM cartridges from the past because those type of cantilevers are NOT available anymore. But NOS originals are still available (but rare). If all post about weakness of rubber is nothing buy a fantasy, I have practically tested so many vintage MM (the best ones, not crap).

Instead you’re talking about rubber parts, do you think it’s more important ?

After years of contributing on this forum I have posted thousands of pictures and articles, but people like you ignoring everything and continue to post nonsense.

-Ever heard about Boron PIPE or Beryllium PIPE cantilevers ?

-Ever tried a ceramic cantilevers (also pipe) ?

-Sapphire or Ruby that are completely different from what SoundSmith can offer today ?

-Gold-Plated Beryllium maybe?

-Even aluminum cantilevers from Japan is not what you can buy today.

You will never find any of those great exotic cantilevers today, no matter how much you can pay, even on $20 000 MC you will never find a Beryllium anymore (production of this material was restricted long time ago), no more Boron Pipe (too expensive to made) ...

Quality control was MUCH higher and those cartridges made in JAPAN !
This country was way ahead of USA or Europe in technology.

This is the reason why the best MM are from JAPAN and they are extraordinary good even today because of the quality control and very high competition between the giants of the industry.

Even cartridge design (visually) was much better than all those ugly looking modern cartridges. Headshell integrated carts like this one is superior design and engineering. I can't post all of them here now, but there are so many amazing cartridges made in analog era, not in digital era. 

* I’m not familiar with Grace but I do know Larry Levan used them at the legendary Paradise Garage with Infinity Black Widow arm, can’t remember the model, a friend told me once, probably would have been a really sturdy cantilever. (I listen to a lot of music from that era).

No @au_lait , your friend was wrong. 
At the Paradise Garage you can only identify Stanton cartridges on Infinity Black Widow tonearms. It was American standard at that time! So you can see on this image that Larry using them. I think it was 681 series, here is more about this model.

Grace is a Japanese cartridge and for America it was an exotic. But both brads supplied phono cartridges for professional studios, radio and disco. A cantilever on all professional models is aluminum, Stanton never used any other type of cantilever (only aluminum on all models, except sapphire coated aluminum on his latest signature CS100 WOS). Grace made disco cartridges with Beryllyum cantilever and it's a huge advantage over aluminum, but for higher price! 

I got that info personally from DJ Harvey via Francois K (who was in the booth every week)... and here is Larry himself talking about Grace carts:

“I’m going to get two more turntables so that as the night goes on, I can upgrade the sound. So I use cheap cartridges in the beginning and upgrade – I have $150 Grace cartridges which I’m really into but you can’t backcue with them. At five AM you’d say ‘what is that?’ because a record should sound as good as a tape.”

@au_lait Thanks for the link, very nice! It could be Grace F8 or F9 then, but as you can see on the actual images from the DJ booth at P.G. there are only Stanton cartridges in use. But I’m glad to read than Larry was familiar with Grace, maybe he’s been using them later when Thorens were replaced with Technics turntables? I have nearly all best Grace models in my collection with too many NOS styli, I love this brand!

BTW I have never seen DJ Harvey or Francois K with some nice cartridges in use, like most of the DJs they are using average modern DJ cartridges (nothing special). And Francois K is digital now (not even vinyl).

For the record... Grace Disco stylus has nothing to do with DJs. It was marketed to audiophiles. It is a high quality nude diamond. I assume the name comes from the fact that it is spherical.

@fsellet Grace DISCO was made for Radio and DJs, there is no other meaning for term "disco" when it comes to the cartridges, they are for professional use, remember radio djs ? Even top of the line Grace model such as LEVEL II had a "disco" version with Beryllium cantilever. This is a truly High-End Disco cartridge, not like today’s cheap DJ cartridges with bonded styli, but Grace is from another era, quality was very important for DJs back then.

The F9D, which I own, has a recommended tracking force of 1.2 g, the same as other Grace F9 models (F9P has a significantly higher VTF because it was meant to be used in heavy professional arms, i.e. radio stations). the F9D is a very good sounding cartridge.

The best in F9 series are RS9F and RS9U styli (Shibata type and line Contact type).

Even RS9 Ruby has an elliptical tip just like RS9E stylus.

The High-End styli starts with F12 and F14 models and this is where you can find exotic types like Ceramic Cantilever, Boron, Beryllium, Sapphire, Ruby ... and finally MicroRidge diamonds. I have them all in my collection. Grace LEVEL II series is not compatible with F9, F12 and F14, but LEVEL II is my favorite series (same type of styli/cantilevers available for LEVEL II).

I don’t like spherical diamonds, the life span is too short, but they are very cheap and for professional needs they are OK, but not for critical listening (imo).