If audio matters are way over the head of most of us already (myself included), and this is one of my discovery in my journey to create my own audio system low cost; imagine how over our head are economic matters and political one , if we want to figure out that for ourselves?
In audio matters and in economic matters, the best is to think first, and read, and takes the thing in our own hands by way of actual experiments in audio and "gedenken" experiment for economics and politics...
In audio matters and in economical matters slogan and cry are only indices about delusion and sheep behaviour...
Money tough is probably at first look easier to understand than sound.... :)
Money is only a symbolic concept manifested in the past in a perceived physical form, sound is a physical phenomenon sometimes transmuted in a perceived musical symbolic form...
Perhaps the first look is deceptive and money like sound are very complex subject after all.... :)
I apologize for my grain of sand and salt....
"Money always make music in my pocket" -Groucho Marx
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I think that in audio and in life we must learn to think without the confort and habit of any formulas....Most people cant...
" We dont need magnifying glass to see the sun "- Groucho Marx
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To answer your question about my actual point Prof, I will say simply, that I cannot dismiss a priori any experience by some, because I lived one myself about cables touching one another ( mouse cable and dac cable in my case) and obstructing the clarity of the sound...
I had no other opinion, only curiosity for these facts, and some explanations; being a non subjectivist, non objectivist kind of audiophile, I will call myself a music lover sensible to sound and prone to working simple experiments to improve it...
Experiments that drives me to some simple discoveries, and low cost homemade solutions, that spare me a big amount of money in unnecessary upgrading urge and gives me something that some called "illusion" of pure musicality, placebo or not....:)
My best to you...
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I have no position....Only some limited experience that I cannot deny with your argument...
You can say I have too much imagination for sure....
And by the way associating generally ridiculous claims (flat earther) or generally accepted non scientific one (anti vaxers) to some group of people,(audiophiles), and linking the 2 is certainly not neutral discourse...And absolutely not the same that appealing to a common ground neutral logical argument accepted by all...It is more akin to a universal appeal to all, to reject those who are associated with them (flat earthers, anti vax, subjectivist audiophiles, like you called them). There is a difference between the logical content of an argument and his rhetorical content...
And look Prof, someone just came in, send by God or his adversary, ( :) ) answering your unvolontary call (the preceding post)...It is instructive to read his post ( rhetorical all the way down!)....By the way the fact that I discuss with you prove to you that, even if we differ, I respect you and we can discuss; I dont think that I can or wanted to discuss with this poster before mine...
My best to you...
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My remark about your mind set is not a more ad hominem act than your assimilation of " subjectivist audiophiles", who report something about cables, to the flat earther, and anti-vaxing crowd ...
By the way an argument can be perfectly rational and sound and used in a non neutral way, motivated by an agenda. (examples abound: using Darwinian science facts in a political agenda etc).
And now I am a troll in the thread... :)
My contribution is a simple testimony in my last post remark if you can read it... It is a simple fact that answered to the OP of this thread, and to you, about my own experience, without dismissing a priori his claims...And like the OP I think that it is a possible question in an audio thread not something akin to the anti-vaxing movement....Your contribution is a bunch of "rational" arguments to dismiss some very simple facts, or if you prefer illusory subjectivist experience, given by some "subjectivist audiophiles" as you called them , it remind me of some Jonathan Swift distinction in Gulliver... The subjectivist egg army against the objectivist egg league....This distinction between subjectivist and objectivist makes absolutely no sense at all except for those who feel necessary to makes it at all cost...
My best to you...
And I dont think that you are a troll by the way....I dont discuss with or about trolls...You are an intelligent mind and interesting guy, just a bit too extreme or hard in his conclusions and his self imposed mission...I wish you the best anyway...
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It is not so much incoherent, it is just that I dont want to conclude and throwing in the basket of illusions all experiences of people who move cables and affirm to hear some differences...In the same way, I listen to your argument, and they are not neutral, your agenda is dismissing any " audiophile claims" … Audiophiles are a crowd akin to anti-vaxing…Case closed... :)
I know perfectly well all there is to think about your vision of the world: astrology, anti-vaxers, audiophiles, crystals users, etc. all the same... Am I forget something ? oh yes, intelligent design, homeopathy, tarot reader,...the list is too way longer to make, but you know it is very easy to read your mind set...
ok I apologize for throwing oil on a fire...
A remark : by the way I never experience in my own audio system that moving my cable makes a difference in itself, except this one : it is better that some cable dont touch some other one... That one I verify and experience by myself ...Then unlike you I dont dismiss all "audiophiles" in the same bin trash... My best to you... And to all...
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If you think about what I said you have the choice:
You can say that some idiot dont want to attack dogmas... Like you say that I am...
Or thinking that no sane mind can affirm this idiocy, you will arrive at the right conclusion that is mine : it is a waste of time to attack dogmas, all the times, with some people....Use your intelligence not to judge too swiftly...Use the context of a discussion to read something that can make sense out of your world...
You look like me when I was 16 years old and I play to dismantle the arguments of anybody without never listen to reason....My best to you , I am too old to argue... :)
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In the chaos of cables mess in a studio, all the subtle "cues" of the changing sound are lost, and cancelled constantly one another, minutes after minutes...A tangle knot of cables moving will maintain a general figure of sound that will not be disturbing, like ONE cable in a peculiar environment, where the same ears lived alone and attentive to the subtle details....And these " subtle" changes are not always measurable, and if they are, in some private room, it will be difficult to summon the expertise necessary to do it in the exact same condition at another times... Ok I will silence myself …. My best to all... |
I dont understand that people use their intelligence to defend dogmas or attack dogmas...
I dont have opinion or experience with the moves of cable and the changing sound...I respect equally those who have report positively about that and those who are not..The 2 opinions and experience are intriguing and interesting... This debate cannot be resolve once and for all without our own involving experience...And it will be only our personal conclusion, because in audio the conditions of experiment are most of the times too peculiar or complex to reproduce with the same electrical grid, the same system, the same room, etc. and different ears also...
It is better to open the brain to the heart and to the ears … :)
I propose a blind test:
close your eyes, listen to the brain; after that listen to the heart... Assess the difference for yourself, and choose your boss...
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I think that measurement has value for design, independent of listening tests...
I think that listening tests have value for us independent of the measuring tests...
I think that the correlation between measurement tests and listening tests is great audio science...
But my ears-brain always smile, without or with science... :)
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Perhaps the word " morons" was a bit too much...I dont like also ad hominem attack...I like to discuss opinions not insulting anybody...I say that to distance myself to the use of the word "morons"... |
alexbergerI will go in the same way as you, some walk their illusory and not very humble walks with sometimes vast amount of knowledge, but poor scientific judgement, too much faith and trust in apparatus and available theories and way less in their too human error prone ears... Technical science is useful and necessary, but in their faillible way, even subject to errors, the ears are more important than all dogmas or even facts, because we listen with the ears and it is the ultimate fact that superseded the other facts in importance... Musical bliss can be and must be produce for sure by a good technical embedding of the audio system, but at the end, the way to increase it more, is not always linked to actual technical known, proved facts...More than that, what is the audible truth for one is anathema for another sometimes... Too much variable to makes rules without many exceptions here...I dont even speak about the many possible personal choices... Musical bliss is first an individual experience before being or beginning to be a scientific fact, if it is ever.... |
