Movie Software make HT a Waste of Resources?

This may be just me but how often after you seen the "cabon copy" explosion riddled movie trailer and said to yourself "God is this stuff stupid or what" and even worse.

As a music listener how long would we put up with consistently poor quality software that offends our intellect?

Seems to me that the movie industry thinks we are just stupid apes willing to buy anything the Hollywood Marketing guys/gals can regurgitate at us. Seriously, think about this next time you see a totally pointless plot but with your rerun "Take" 865.95 of bombs and flashes.

On the other hand where would Casablanca or Citizen Kane be without that great 7.1 sound :)?

I saw a bumper sticker a few years ago that read: "The more you know the less you need" . In the case of movies, maybe another sticker could read "The more you think the less you are willing spend in front of the screen watching carbon copies". Once in a while it is fun to watch a good boom boom if there is something to fill the space between the boom boomies such as Saving Private Ryan.

I am probably missing something here but why is home theatre worth ten's of thousands of dollars of our discretionary income?

Maybe that old song "In the year 2525 we will not need our minds, will not need our eyes...." was overly kind with respect to the date.

Hi, Noel;
Just gotta love a guy who can quote Zagger and Evans.
I'm a full range/no subs kind of guy myself. I rent lots of movies;--New HD projector.--- Yes soooo many plots are reconfigured from movies that wern't that good anyway. My mind is blank now--(I think it came that way,and I want to keep it intact)--but there are also some good movies. I would guess we all have different tastes/ ages/and the like.

Back as a kid--in reference to cars--there was an expression--"If it don't go (fast) ,chrome it"-- Well the movie makers figure if it ain't good--make it loud?? It seems everybody also needs multiple subs. --Gotta go with what they give you--??

The movie"Irene and Me"; I hated on dvd,was exquisite in HD (HBO).There are many reasons I love movies.--Color photography, music within the movie--oh yea,once in a while; the story.
Not sure I understand the point of this thread - you don't like movies, don't understand why people would spend a lot of money on recreating them in their own homes, and ????

If you're telling us that a lot of movies are stupid or bad today, just re-hashed stories, is this a revelation? Citizen Kane being an older movie that was excellent - is this to imply that there wasn't a lot of tripe passed off as worthy of a movie theater ticket back when CK was made?

I would argue that there are more good to excellent movies being made today than ever before - more styles, more creativity, more talent. There's no time, IMO, that spending a lot on high-quality movie reproduction in my own house made more sense - it's one of the best entertainment "investments" I've ever made. It beats the boat I didn't buy, the vacation home I don't own, the $50K SUV I find ludicrous. When I sit down to watch an "escapist" movie, I'm pretty cognizant of the fact that the movie is "stupid" - just like football games, most optional reading, and dozens of other discretionary activities I and others participate in. I actually thought the point of a lot of these activities was that they don't all have to challenge my intellect, that I can occassionally give my intellect a couple hours off.

What discretionary activities and expenditures do you see fit? I'd be curious to hear what you've found that somebody can't find a completely negative characterization of.

Discretionary income is what is left over after what is necessary has been purchased. What seems relevant is what portion of your income and the rarest of things, time, goes into this diversion. So little time in this country is invested in understanding our place in the world. To me, to be alive is to be aware. In fact, that is often the criteria for determining Quality of Life or if you technically Dead! There is such liberation and fulfillment that comes from understanding and exploring the world around us. From that simple, yet, profound lense: The investment in dollars in Movies is to me, not as, much a problem for the dulling of America as the amount of time occupied with escape to the manufactured, unreal (often not even remotely believable)worlds of Hollywood. Diversion is not a problem but it is when that becomes the greatest limitation to understanding the difference between diversion and what is real. So much about America leds to fat bodies and dull minds: An example, Go to work in a climate controlled driving space of a gas guzzling SUV, then go into the sheltered parking garage, enter into the climate controlled office building for work, leave for home after work in the SUV, hit the garage door opener so you don't have to make your legs work for 20 feet, go into the climate controlled house, get a cold one, enter into the home theatre room with multi-controlled lighting systems, turn on an escape movie, listen to some bombs from the left rear channels panning to the right front channels, then before going to bed listen to the news presented by Corporations interested in keeping the American Public dull and unquestioning of norms (by the way, check out "Fairness and Accuracy in Reporting" to see what I am talking about).

I think a better summary as delivered by another Audiogon'er who responded to the exact same question I posed in another section thread. Here is his response:.

"The sad reality is that, for a substantial portion of the American public, crap is now the acceptable norm. One of my favorite entertainers was Steve Allen, a true Renaissance guy, who some years ago wrote a book about the "dumbing down" of America. What is happening in the American movie industry is but the unfortunate reflection of a poorly educated (in the full sense of the term) and relatively uncultured American population. The barbarians are no longer at the gate -- they now represent a significant influence in the U.S. population. Is it any wonder that the Islamic countries worry about cultural decay due to American influences?"

Something is incredibly wrong when enrichment in a variety of things is seen as out-of-step with society and becoming fat in the body and mind is in step.

Wow...what a great topic. I think I could get up on either sides soapbox and and legitimately argue for both.

I personally love HT. Yes, it does let me enter the land of the dumb and allow me to be spoonfed my entertainment for a couple hours however, this is just how I like to be "entertained". The $$$ amount spent on a persons HT is completely irrelevant. Alot of people will want to argue the discretionary income thing. Dumb, Fat, Stupid, Lazy, Unaware, Selfish Americans are being created long before they ever set foot in a home theater. Somewhere I remember hearing that the average american spends 8 hours a day watching tv...Me?...I dont even have cable and only get NBC with a pair of rabbit ears.

Now do movies dumb down america?...Sure, there are alot of bad movies released nowadays, but there are also plenty of exceptional ones. Big $$$ hollywood flash is not always the best place to look and some of the indie film companies have put out some masterpieces. At least with a movie, I'm only out $2 to rent it and if it sucks, I can turn it off and do something else...then again, I'm not always sure if that something else is bettering my life in any way either. Would it be better to sit on the couch stuffing my face while critically listening to whatever my latest gear/software purchase? Hell, for a hundred bucks I could get a playstation and really ruin my life.

Ok lets face it, our society is FAR from perfect, but i think that the most important thing that everybody must realize, that although we will usually not agree with everybody elses ideas, something of value can be learned from EVERYONE if we allow it to be so. Too bad our society is one that has a hard time being truly selfless and rather it's actions are usually in the pursuit of immediate self gratification or self interest. Maybe someday we will have a society where kids play sports on a field instead of a television, where we all had better diets etc etc.

On that I will close...these are only my opinions. Maybe a good Movie Recommendation right now would be "Pay It Forward"

Oh...and do something nice for somebody today with no strings attached

I had to respectfully laugh for quite a while upon reading the "summary" statement that our society is far from ideal offered as almost an excuse not to live an Examined Life vs the Unexamined Life (actually it is "Examined" by the media that tells us all we need to know. Why do people Examine the assumptions only after a traffic accident like 911 and ENRON?). So often that summary seems to make people feel good inside in some perverse way and make things right through the non-reflective self-answer: "Wow, we are all in this soup together so our collective ideas must be right!" Mike Tyson and variety of misfits have used the phrase "I am not perfect so....blah blah blah". Seeming to imply no one is perfect so we should not question the extent of our own imperfections as a person or as a society. Almost everywhere in the world outside of the US. People have the opinion like the other audiogoner presented above:

"The sad reality is that, for a substantial portion of the American public, crap is now the acceptable norm. One of my favorite entertainers was Steve Allen, a true Renaissance guy, who some years ago wrote a book about the "dumbing down" of America. What is happening in the American movie industry is but the unfortunate reflection of a poorly educated (in the full sense of the term) and relatively uncultured American population. The barbarians are no longer at the gate -- they now represent a significant influence in the U.S. population. Is it any wonder that the Islamic countries worry about cultural decay due to American influences?"

Most successful European Countries do not work as many hours because of some weird notion they have that "Time is more valuable than Things" (I think they got that idea from talking to some corpses:). In America you do not have Time for Things you buy because you are always working to buy them. Then when you get them they do not make you happy. So, with the assumption if you made more money you could buy even more expensive things which will make you happy since the cheaper ones did not, you go for next higher job which requires more Time so you have less Time for the things that cost more that still do not make you happy. So you go for the next higher job....blah blah.....".

Things change initially by being introduced to other points of view. How many movies that are widely distributed challenge us (challenge should not be bad word but somehow in US the media wants it that way)? Of that small select group of films that expand our view of the world how many would make a hill of beans of difference if you heard through a 4" TV speaker or $120,000 ATC System? Volume maybe is only necessary if what you have to say is not obvious without making it the only thing your brain can deal with because it overwealms all other senses.

I once heard that people need stronger spices in food as they grow older because their senses have dulled. Maybe that is the logic of Home Theatre?

Growth and wonder are prime ingredients in bringing excitement to life and the true value of youth. Whereas stagnation via a broken record of non-ideas is very dangerous and unhealthy. This is not a matter of litening up (another cliche excuse to go brain dead or asleep and focus on primal sports metaphors for making decisions in life). Rather this is about putting some high octane fuel into the engine of wonder: The Brain you own but that Media apparently is renting with right to purchase at the end of the lease.


PS: I think it does matter how much one spends on anything since it puts a cap on or eliminates other options including charity. In addition, there is more than a strong tendency to give a disproportional amount of time on things we over emphasize in our family budgets often far beyond our actual fulfillment or enjoyment of them.

:0 What an Insightful Real Life Concept!

By the way, doesn't it sound like a new Star Wars Sequel "The Axis of Evil"

North Korean goverment called US "The Empire of Evil" after being called "The Axis of Evil", which for sure reminds me of Star Wars Sequel.

Children exposed to these days media need extreme cares/attentions of their guardian, so that their brains can function when they grow up. Perhaps it'd be a way better, had they not been exposed to these at all. At least not until they establish some ability to be self aware.

For the grown-up, I think self-controlled exposure to media can be entertaining without too much damage. We all die :)
ha ha ha ha really HA HA HA should join the Amish
Actually much of the rest of planet already has joined the Amish compared to the US if you speak, Ellery911, from the perspective of not totally messing up the planet beyond what can be marginally sustainable(e.g., US Population has less than 5% of the population but uses 25% of worlds fossil fuel and more than that regarding rare resources) but if you speak from the standpoint of being shielded from the truth (again please see and related links for clarity) by the media the USA population are the Amish. PS: This is more than mildly interesting: I posted the same question under Preamps/amps section and the divergence of opinions between the two sections could hardly be greater. See
Having a background in film, there are many reasons films are made. Film is nothing more than the medium in which a particular message is sent, just like the internet is a medium for you to espouse your opinions or direct people to the I think it is the message contained in this medium, especially those that are from for-profit, Hollywood corporations that you are objecting to. But for every recycled 60's TV show turned into a movie, there are thoughtful projects that seek to expand one's intellect and get their messages out to a broader audience. Documentaries that can propell you from the relative confort of your sofa to the frontlines of war, famine and disease. In fact, one could argue without this medium, most people would be unaware of things outside of thier familiar surroundings or places they have visited. That said, there are movies made to advance one message, make people laugh, make people scared - to create a response. Some acheive this goal, others do not. I think you are selling the American people short who want to see these movies. They are no less stupid than people in Europe or Asia who line up to see the SAME films - only dubbed in their native languages! As far as obesity, greed, Enron, 9/11 or the supposed moral and spiritual superiority of the Islamic world (don't get me started there!) - I don't know what that has to do with the original statements you made. However, since we are lucky enough to live in a country that allows us the persuit of happiness, people who want to line up to buy Charlie's Angels' should be able to do so without judgement being passed on them. Just one man's opinion. Tony.
We can all take a beer and liten up. I argue Corporations and their proxy (National Government, e.g. Enron)keep us in a planned, constant state of litening up. Americans act on trivial knowledge (does anyone pay attention to the increasing trivial reporting on CNN after they fired their old anchors in favor of actresses and beauty models delivering the news in manner modeled directly from MTV?). We, as Americans, live what is about a controlled life by corporations (Please be informed: Clear Channel or two other corporations Owns 95% of FM and the majority of concerts, Michael Powell (FCC Chairman) wants them to own Newspapers, TV, and Radio in most communities). How can Americans be informed. Who is informing them? Pat Robertson? Please check out these assertions. If they are wrong, please let us all know with relevent citations. Movies are from one point of view a reflection of what we should all value the most: Our Time. When we speak with our discretionary time we signal how thoughtful or trivial we are. In response to the comments directly above: This is clearly on topic in great correlation to the facts. I am not arguing American people are stupid if given the facts, I am arguing their (indisputably)grossly overweight bodies (if you travel Europe you will know that an American meal serving is greatly more than what you get in Europe, not better quality (most of Europe bans genetically modified food)but more of it and with greater amounts of food processing) and outrageous disregard for balance of nature surely reflects that Americans are out of balance with the rest of "industrial" Europe. This is serious stuff with the facts on every major database available. If Americans are no less stupid (which I agree) you have to agree they are much more hood winked by their distructive purchases (case in point: Home Theatre processors worth next to nothing 6 years after they are made (in fact after the mandatory 5 years of parts support, try to get your "Everything on one Circuit Board" board replaced) Processors full of rare elements and toxic components (if not in content in the manufacture of them). Multichannel amplifers that can hardly keep up with the bi-annual increase in more channels. More power, more electricity needed = MORE OIL, MORE NUCLEAR POWER = MORE DEPENDENCE ON FOREIGN POLICY DRIVEN BY CHEAP OIL. If this does not reflect a (as Pink Floyd in 1979 said) Comfortly Numb society, What does?
Am I the only one the color is pissing off???? you want to see colors go to other wise lets KISS(keep it simple stupid). Thanks
Glad its only color or are we?
This thread is on target on the most important aspect of our audio choices: Who controls the game and how they control the game. It is, in good measure, how "we" in the rush to keep up with latest and "greatest" movie hardware are actually destroying our range and depth of real options.

Golliath sized multinational manufacturers building in some of the most planned obsolete technology in the history of humanity (home theatre)and the impacts it has on the rest of our audio options, the natural resources it wastes due in part by the extremely short term market value of the products and the related perception it fosters in young people that electronics are throw away items (like kleenex), and the people it adversely affects. Companies are dying off, like flys on a Frosty Fall night, on a regular basis as they try their 2-3 year stint into Home Theatre before collapsing primarily because they lack the resources to follow the dance of "Ring around Format Tree Game" (this process is not too much different than the apparent crushing of the Soviet Union by the Soviets burning up all their cash reserves trying to compete around Military Arms Tree).

A not to hard to imagine result: Essentially only multinational corporations will be around making electronics we are "allowed" to have in a few years (Clarion Car Radio people buying up McIntosh and diluting quality for the sake of a ton of me-too convenience laden non-sense audio, Harmon Kardon International playing hard ball with Mark Levinson), and destroying jobs and at the same time making for nearly worthless hardware 6 years after it is made), and zoombie like quality of not questioning the disportionate outlays of money necessary to follow this Ring Around The Format Tree game is central to a debate that we all should take to the Multinationals including Sony, Pioneer, and Hitachi etc. The remote control life seems to have gone from meaning us controlling our TV sets to the Corporations controlling us by testing how fast they can make equipment ready for the landfill and how fast we will be to buy into this wasteful cycle. Just so they can keep the profit cycle accelerating (how many have tried to get support from any of these big multinationals after their equipment is 8 or more years old as compared to companies of passion and integrity like Audio Research, BAT, etc.)

PS: Hope my color choices on fonts are less offensive and my arguments more surgical. :)
No,I'm sorry, but this thread is not on target! As a matter of fact there seems to be no "target" at all. It starts off discussing the lack of good movies for us to watch. From there it becomes a negative, rambling discourse on a multitude of subjects including, but not limited to,
1.Discretionary income and how we should spend our money.
2.The level of intelligence of Americans
3.How we should spend our time.
4.Charitable contributions
5.Mass marketing and hostile corporate takeovers.
6.Mike Tyson, Enron, 911, the Amish, ...and on and on...

I think it is important to talk about all of these issues, but this is an Audio-Video Forum. If you would like to discuss these issues, by all means feel free to start your own chat room on AOL and stay up all night if you would like.I love this website, and I log on to buy something, or to see if anybody else has used a particular type of amplifier, projector, interconnects, and yes, even recommendations of good movies or CD's.

As far as the political issues, and "this is what's wrong with America" stuff. It doesn't belong here. If you don't like the movies being made, don't buy them. If Harmon Kardon "takes over" Madrigal and starts making junk, then people will buy high-end stuff from other companies. If corporations continue to change formats, people will stop investing in equipment (i.e. Divix) until they feel comfortable that this format is here to stay. (DVD)
The short answer to the previous thread is: the more you know the more you realize things are related. The relationships are clear in the thread and to the marketers that pray upon a "unquestioning" public. The less you question the less you understand the connections till it is too late. Also, birds of a feather flock together and tend not to challenge each other about alternative views. I would rather raise challenging questions about the validity of purchases to the very ones doing the purchases. For example, it would make little sense to discuss the insanity of massive, resource intensive, nearly uncontrollable (almost like an unguided missle) at high speeds, gas-guzzling SUV's for the average american and all the world's living things in a Kayaking/Bicyling/Health Forum (everyone there knows it).

Junk has been made in this country for a long time and has done nothing to stop people from buying more of it. Nothing may be more evident of this then how much of the US Population stick processed, fat laden, anti-biotic injected food into themselves. American waistlines, fat clogged sewer lines near many resturants (national recognized problem by those who scratch beneath the veneer of marketing), and fat clogged veins is some of the proof. I am sure the marketers at McDonalds did not consider saying "get your weekly allowance of fat in one meal" and "impress the heck out of the opposite sex by becoming a big, fat, slob that is dramatically more prone to heart disease and cancer by making us a habit". Rather they divert the USA public's attention on what the eating experience "should be" (translated - "think like this about eating") and to their credit "they have been successful" in the US yet attacked for the same message in Europe. Why is it McIntosh reportedly sells more of their 2-channel high end outside of the US and more Home Theatre in the US ? I think there is a "related" McDonald's marketing strategy in here somewhere. Just so the big picture is not lost again: The big multinationals, some of which are a completely connected dictator of our consumer choices: by owning Motion Picture Studios (by no means an accident), movie software, and the movie hardware. Speaking of movie hardware the big boys when they will be releasing Dolby Pro Logic, Dolby Digital, Dolby 5.1, Dolby 7.2, Dolby Digital II (usually shortly after the small guys are too heavily invested in a previous format). No one asked us if we want nine-speakers (7.2 format) in our living spaces but the marketing people created "new" ways of thinking, ala McDonalds type schemes, about movies at the very time they recognized the dramatic shift in Americans leading a active life to one of the "couch potatoe" virtual life. Heck, even ads making the biggest joke of all about this. I can imagine some CEO saying "Stupid Americans we'll even show you what happens when all you do is watch TV/movies and, they must be laughing, you'll like it and we will to all the way to the bank": The ads on TV almost always put an soft, overweight man in an even softer, easy chair. The man demonstrating as much activity as a person recently back from major heart surgery. They must have tag teamed with McDonalds on this one.

I contend the big multinationals know that the small niche firms that design equipment for people who love music will always be around unless the marketing team can make American's "rethink" home entertainment such that all the small companies and the small stereo shops, that cator to the savvy consumer, will be crushed trying to keep up with constant format changes. Once crushed they can then sell direct via the WEB or "brain-dead" sales people stores like Circuit City and Best Buy. How many audio stores with caring people have closed down around you? Then with the American public believing(like they did with the marketing generated shift to high fat, chemical laden food) will no longer have a readily available reference point to compare to then can totally dominant the electronics market. If you don't think this is the likely scenario being played out then try to imagine how much technical depth the Editors of Home Theater (March 2002 is an excellent example) think you (the consumer) want? The March 2002 issue looks like it is pandering to children (in adult bodies) who have yet to develop any sense of how information can be used to make better choices. Most of the technical articles are focused on Features and many of the convenience features (so you don't have to lift your fast food body out of the easy chair) rather then any "in-depth" review of the features and the objective/subjective need for them. Compare the amount and mega-size of the Graphics, that presumably "say it all" but say nothing at all (I am sorry it says everything about the approach to the American consumer I refer to above). It is not just a matter, as a commentor states above, of me just stop renting movies and buying movie hardware if I don't like them. I can not visit my old trusted friends who spent hours/days of time with me assisting me with purchases of hi-end audio, went out their way to hand deliver and set up trial pieces of equipment that cost about 1/20th of a hi-end video projector, and spread the consumer dollar in more places around the community rather then concentrating all dollars, yen, etc in Multinationals in some far off city or country. The people making this stuff is even a sadder story. What you purchase and from whom you purchase it has profound impacts on the quality of life for the whole planet.

Another, and I contend intended, benefit of a less discriminating music listening audience is that, with the help of FCC Chairman Michael Powell, they can, through their ownership (ALSO) of nearly all FM Stations push cheap compressed digital signals (signals that travel farther but have less sonic quality) along with advertisements of their products. Then without people understanding the benefits of local community based radio (big national/mulitinational firms lobbied extremely hard to take away any discenting views via local community owned and operated FM, see various articles on this at or see the big multinationals can push satellite radio that have no discenting commentary (on anything). With no other way to new and diverse music in mobile form (car radio, where most people are when going back and forth to work to save money to buy their newer SUV and mega-thousand dollar Home Theatre) the multinationals can then push their own limited number of musical artists pushing out the largest amount of precanned, me-too, music. (Think big multinationals trying to own all the bases, and then some, is paranoid? If you don't want to take the time to go to the links above can you say ENRON?) Maybe 911 will make, but not likely, the US population more aware that a world exists outside their Home Theatre door that was not created in La-La Land aka Hollywood.

Sort of an Epilog:

If you read any newspaper or heard any radio or TV today you will recognize that what I spoke of above about one Corporate Voice planned and pushed by FCC Chairman, Michael Powell was put on the ultra fast track today. Now AOL and GE will almost certainly make sure you do not get any information they do not want you to know.

Dear me, such heavy philosophical musings. Sounds like the review of a rock album in Rolling Stone. Hey, I once heard Thom Moon opine that Elvis Costello was a more profound philosopher than Alfred North Whitehead. Damn! All those years wasted in graduate school when I could just have gone to Tower and gotten it all on one CD.

Folks, the paradigm is a simple one: If you like it, and you can afford it, buy it and listen to/through it. That's all. If you don't like it, don't buy it. But neither need you feel compelled to tell the other guy that he's wrong to do so. What's hard about this?

Over on another thread, some guys are bragging about listening to rap on $100K+ systems. To me, that's like putting a diamond necklace on a Duroc pig but, hey, it isn't my money. If you find Levinson and the Wu Tang the right mix for you, go for it. If "Saving Private Ryan" fills your evening enjoyably, what the heck?

As a buddy of mine who teaches philosophy at Harvard is fond of saying, "Y'all pseudointellectuals is annoying to us that really is."

Sorry this is not philosophy anymore than the apparent deliberate acts of ENRON and Arthur Anderson and it seems the entire auditing profession are/were, whichever the case may be, involved in. Apparently Wall Street is involved in philosophy, according to the implied definition, in questioning companies the likes of GE, IBM, Tyco among hoards of others this past week with another round of stock slides. Gosh, if someone had any money in the stock market or stands a risk of having their son die in battle over oil maybe they should get involved in this here philosophy thing.

When multinationals play unfair and squeeze out the options for a more discerning public we all loose. If what is reported in the links I refer to is not factural then maybe you can enlighten us all. I for one would like to believe what is going on in several aspects of our society from lost pensions while a handful make BILLIONS, excessive compensation for CEOs that make quarterly numbers by laying off 20,000 then get 3 times their total compensation package for poor job performance as they get laid off, etc. I do not think the facts are philosophy. If they are maybe we need another term for philosophy.

Let me get this straight: Desiring not to be as easily manipulated by marketers (e.g. "blasting 110 db sound from 9 speakers is the secret to enjoying a good movie" or at least "a quick marketing path for hearing aids") and the interests of multinationals pressured on us all makes someone a "psuedo" intellectal. Presumably then, someone is an "un"intellectual that doesn't question the larger forces at work in our society or those who do not care to debate it and would rather use names or cliche's to label or dismiss someone. Funny things: Boomerangs.

I suppose what I was suggesting, nanderson, was that this is perhaps not the ideal place to mount your intellectual hobbyhorse. That your preferences and purchasing decisions are driven by strong belief in a particular socioeconomic model is clear. Your implied argument: That those beliefs and consequent behaviors ought therefore to be normative for all is much less convincingly made.

And yes, nanderson, that IS philosophy. Leaving out the antecedents (always a dangerous choice in philosophy) start with Jeremy Bentham and read forward.

Keep smiling. As an old bleeding heart liberal and once-and-future social activist, I know well the hazards of grim-visaged ideology.

I learned a long time ago the benefits of light hearted sayings like "keep smiling" as an implied, objective epilog for the presumed, thoughtful argument that precedes it. So I'll do a extra dose and say before I begin " Have a great weekend, enjoy the kids, may the sun shine upon you forever and ever"

Liberal has nothing to do with it. Being informed does. Funny how George Bush and the entire US Congress all of a sudden became LIBERAL when everyone at ENRON lost their shirt except GB's close buddies. What choices we have in audio is related to our unquestioning nature as Americans. We soak up whatever marketers can frame as "expanding our individualism". Yet the funny thing is we have far fewer choices after the mega-mergers then ever before (think for a minute of these topics "California Skyrocking Energy Prices and ENRON Making Billions", "Microsoft", "AOL", "Lack of Alternative Fuels"). How much diversity and balance is really in our lifes except work, work for the sake of things. Hi-end audio is being slashed and burned by the successful marketing of planned obsolete Home Theatre and never ending array of formats we did not ask for. If Home Theatre is such a prized possession equal to its increasing price tag and energy consumption why then does the market say it is nearly worthless 6 years after a processor that drives the whole system is made?

No matter how fast a dog chases his tail he will never catch it. Everytime he thinks he has it that darn tail changes direction again. Presumably, eventually the dog realizes this activity is fruitless and gets on to other things. Unfortunately as Americans by the time we get done casing the tails of visions of marketers we destroy community based companies and small but vital niches in our stream of choices that is part of the richness of life.

Almost anything can be framed as an ideal it just depends who has the artillery to shove it down someones throat versus those who have to try to educate themselves and the public about alternative more sustainable, diverse, enlightening, and healthy lifestyles for everyone not just Americans (we are never safe when we piss off the world no matter how much money is spend on bombs and reading of our e-mail by the CIA). Conservative is far too often a proxy for keep "Aggressive, self-interested fat old white guys in power". If there ever was an idea out of step it is the dogma of an "Oil Idealism" way of framing everything. If you create a global map of everywhere oil can be extracted in huge quantities, the military weak, and therefore where we stick our nose you will see our foreign policy and military directed. Let me ask "What is more dangerous: 1. ) questioning our purchase priorities and the affect they have on other related things (that ol' "grim visaged ideology") or 2.) Believing what is best for the Ideals of a handful of executives is the best for us.

What we have for choices in this country is as much about what we do as what we don't do.

Wishing you and yours a very happy new year and spring showers of happiness throughout life everlasting. And may you not get laid off before that second SUV is paid for because you may need it to take all those speakers, wires, stands, processors, and a host of black boxes home when they come up with Dolby 9.2.

I guess I should find a different thread to brag about my new 10.2, B&W Nautilaus 800's all around, system I just finished setting up in my 60x90 dedicated theater?


I'm curious Nanderson - what topics are you light-hearted about? Are you a participant in other forums about other topics where you're the one enjoying the hobby, or are you this serious about everything? I find it a bit odd how consistently you're accessing your modern-day computer, routing messages over Cisco routers and Sprint phone lines to deliver your message of the evil of planned obsolescence, etc.

Personally, in the past year I've had my best friend of 32 years decide to take his own life, I had 80 employees on the 58th floor of Tower 2, and I led a staff of 300 people through a bankruptcy to successful recovery for them and their families. While this might be a bit extreme, it unfortunately wasn't out of the ordinary for 2001 - I'm sure many people had more intensity and worse outcomes. I personally think we should applaud those who can live through times like these and find something to smile about. It doesn't imply obliviousness or naivety on their part, it implies a strong will. -Kirk

I think the apparent planned destruction of my loved hobbies and options in general is something to think about. Why does engaged and vital necessarily mean serious? Or put another way, are you joking around when you ask questions in forums? Maybe you should use the word thinking. I'll try to take in a couple of cases of Ice Beer before discussing anything next time, so I will not, hopefully, come across as so serious - ah er- I mean - able to think

I don't like being a stool pigeon for marketers. I am just questioning the whole premise of an industry that makes products that everyone seems to consider worthless a few years after they produced and at the same time accelerates our use of energy and considerable outlay of natural resources.

Your comments seem like the ol' tetter-totter argument again. Apparent translation of your argument: If you use any technology you can not have negative thoughts about any technology and the marketing premise of it. Maybe you are taking George's witty argument too seriously (opps, that darn serious term again, rats). In the words of Junior: Either you are with us or against us. Using that pearl of compromise and wisdom, maybe since I hate some foods I should stop eating even if I like other foods. Great logic, I'll start fasting today.

On some of your other points. We all have very bad things happen in our lives. SO? (by the way, sincerely sorry to hear about any tradegy in life, there seems to more than enough to go around world-wide). What is important is understanding what we could or could not have done to prevent them individually or as a society, what we can learn from them putting all things in perspective, and how lessons learned from them can help us live in a world community not in a "make believe" vacuum. Or like my ma always use to say "don't crap in the living room when you should take it to the compost pile". But what my ma did not realise is that Marketers never heard of the concept of a compost pile they only were told there are landfills and once they are full we all jump on the space shuttle to the nearest planet the government or some big corporation (opps again, guess they are not different) has planned for us.

Since it has become customary in this thread to disarm all arguments with "Ann of Green Gables" sayings, let me end with another light-hearted good will saying: May the merry princess of love and dream cones bless us all the days of our lives. :)

gosh, how can I get any more light hearted than that? For some really light-hearted fun stuff from your pals at FAIR see this link.

Peace Brother


Fair enough - asking questions should not necessarily imply that one is being too serious, just asking a serious question. I think it's a stretch to give yourself extra credit for being able to think over the other participants in this forum and thread. Maybe you just mean that you're thinking more deeply on this particular topic. I'll grant you that.

What are you suggesting we all do in response to the marketing agents of HT conniving to get us to all upgrade at great expense every couple of years? Your early points seemed to be that most movies are stupid, which is fine, but is just an opinion. What would you like to see happen in the HT world, and how can the readers of this forum participate?

My point with the use of technology wasn't "love it or leave it" - it was that your main objection with HT is the marketing angle (planned obsolescence, etc), but I would suggest that this is the same as every modern technology going. I'd love to hear about one that doesn't have this at it's fundamental core. Certainly computers are worthless every 2-3 years. Cisco routers are too - the fact that you're supposed to depreciate them over several years is a joke - things just move too fast. Again, my point isn't "love it or leave it", it's why does HT stand out in your mind?

I don't come to this forum to argue, so you'll have to understand if I end by saying Have a Nice Weekend. Peace, Kirk

I think that people should evaluate if they are actually getting something that makes their life better relative to other choices and if in making those choices does it wipe out others. Of those wiped out choices are they not important to loose? I think American's are incredibly susceptible to marketing and not understanding when they are sucked in by "concept" of expanding their individualism versus substance. Even worse, they often buy in to some of the most destructive patterns without even considering the consequences that are very hard, if not impossible, to reverse. A really great example: Urban sprawl (that is a major one, with your grocery store in one part of town, your clothing stores scattered all over outlying malls, your hardware store in another, your job in another area, etc) forcing everyone to travel great distances just to get anything done. Community is destroyed, inner city becomes blight riden while suburbs become almost surreal, elite hide-aways of a primarily white public interested to get away from "other" people. The suburbanites interests become increasingly not those of people of the inner city. Couple that with the fact suburbanites have the booty to better fund elections they set policy that maximizes the differences between people's opportunities for quality of life in a wide array of ways. The increased disconnection and opportunities for inner city youth has been directly related to increases in crime and insane increase in prison building (in Wisconsin, prison budget is bigger than the entire University of Wisconsin Education System: which includes UW-Madison and many satellite universities scattered throughout the state), outrageous amounts of time is lost forever, perceptions of the lost community and time wasted are not even evaluated by those born into this non-sense (they have no point of reference, like some distant society in some futuristic sci-fi movies you might see on your Home Theatre), pollution goes up dramatically with all the driving around (e.g., Atlanta is so incredibly polluted that heat built up caused by the pollution is readily and dramatically seen from heat detecting, satellite landstat photography: Atlantan's are not just crapping in their Living Room, it is worse, its like crapping on their own dinner plates (check out the links on this page at underlines)).

Home Theatre is different than Cisco routers in important ways in terms of planned obsolescence but also similar. The differences include: Routers REALLY become overloaded and need to be replaced or supplemented to keep up with the worldwide increase in traffic (vitual traffic, reducing need to conduct literal travel (I, for example, rarely ever need to use my car) and bringing issues to a world-wide audience even that elite public in the suburbs hidden away in their cookie cutter houses and that magnum of isolation: Home Theatre). Whereas, movies are playable without chasing an incredibly wasteful array of constant upgrades (remember LP's were suppose to be completely replaced by CD's and cassettes where doomed about 12 years ago, both are still around and delivering satisfying sound). Home Theatre (HT) also creates a lifestyle, when taken to an extreme that by its very nature, is incredibly isolating (think of it, would you spend tens and tens and tens of thousand dollars on Home Theatre and its associated new floor space (many people actually build small houses around their HT further increasing the expense and magnifying the isolation: an extension of an extension of a suburb escape??) and not burn up hours and hours of your time. Cisco does not need marketers to tell your technology is out of date and you need to upgrade: Reality does. HT does not need to be upgraded in the same way, it is Marketer feed perceptions of a need to upgrade. Computers are not worthless after 2-3 years for most home users unless they buy into the endless cycle of Computer Game (another example of Isolation from the REAL world) Driven mentallity (trying to make games, ironically, more REAL). My work uses Landstat Imagery among other sources of data that really does require 1GB or more of RAM etc but always find uses for my 6 year old 166 and 266 Pentium on a network (does Word Processing just fine and is an excellent backup device and eventually goes to charity for use by a church etc ). I argue that Marketers plan to release additional channels every couple of years, not because they have yet to develop the technology. But that they have too soften up the, primarily, American consumer to the nutty idea of robbing even more living space with an increasing number of speakers, wires, and trashing yet another processor, increasing energy usage, and increasing the American's time (Time, you know, that thing :( dead people :) do not have)"consumed" watching movies. There is much more I could get into here but that will have to do for now.

Oh.....sorry......almost forgot. May love and harmony bless your family of friends and neighbors (just in case your neighbors are not friends. maybe you do not know them. maybe invite them over to watch a movie. don't worry you wouldn't have to talk to them. Remember open discussion is a cardinal sin of watching movies. Movies demand and get Total Control of Your Time something music listening does not necessarily and most often does not do. I read, have open engaging discussions with my family and friends, think on a wide range of things (actually think better with it in the background), play with the dogs, work, relax, watch sailboats and birds, etc all while listening to music. Music is a partner in lifes activities. It is not a time and diversity prison.) forever and ever.


YES!!! ;~)

doug s.
Are you making an argument for music or against HT? I don't think you'll find anybody here who argues with you on your points about music - I listen to music more or less constantly, usually in the background, and can't imagine life without it.

When you read, do you allow for people to have open discussion with you? You're correct that when I'm watching a movie, I don't want people talking to me, but the same holds for reading as well as many other past-times. You're correct, though, that I don't mind it a bit when I'm listening to music.

I don't agree with your assessment that computers don't need to be upgraded but HT hardware does. Somebody who bought a Pro Logic receiver 8 years ago can still use it to their satisfaction today just the same as somebody running Windows 3.1 on a 486 can. I'd suggest that probably more so - it's easier to find software today that is compatible with the receiver than that computer. Or, somebody who bought the first DD 5.1 receiver in the late 90's can use it for many many years to come. It's at least as useful as a Pentium 166.

Why do you believe Cisco routers REALLY need to be upgraded? If we would all just accept communications as acceptable at today's level of service, we wouldn't need better routers - they'd mechanically last for years. They REALLY need to be upgraded because people want more, for mainly the same reasons you give for HT upgrades - the promise of something better. They're not being upgraded for email - they're being upgraded for streaming video (for movies on demand, amongst others). And by having this infrastructure constantly improved, there are any number of undesireable side effects. I would agree that there are many more positive side effects to the upgrading of the nation's communication infrastructure than there is with the onward march of HT hardware, but the negatives seem undeniable as well.

I'd ask again if there is a suggestion as to what we as an interested community should do in response to the concerns you express. I've never watched a movie in anything more exotic than DD 5.1, so I can hardly be accused of chasing the never ending formats. That's also my advice to anybody who wants to "try" HT - set it on DD 5.1 and forget about all that other stuff.

Your posts are interesting, Nanderson. I find many people who have interesting thoughts and points of view, with an especially dense population of that type of person on Audiogon. Have a great week! -Kirk

HT is the target. You made several of my points for me. Thanks! :) HT does not need to be upgraded (as I stated before) if people would think about it. Congratulations on your apparent ability not to buy into the marketeting propaganda. But since apparently most Americans live their lives on Marketing Autopilot, the Marketers drag them by the ring through their collective noses. Hard evidence: The market place puts next to no value on the used processors. If people really valued the equipment they would get a buck or two for their used stuff. You almost can not give the stuff away. The HT market is based on trashing equipment constantly and that is very seriously bad for the pocketbooks of the consumer and the environment (you know....The Environment, that place that SUV commercials say you travel to in your SUV rather than the place where you live. Since you travel to it in the SUV way-of-thinking you can afford to mess it up. The Environment is where you live regardless of what the Ford Expedition commercials say). And maybe more importantly, the HT wasteful cycle is a horrible consumer model to be teaching our children.

HT is a one-way street with hollywood as the traffic cop of ideas if we allow it to consume time that we could dedicate to expanding our collective awareness.

Not believing improvements in communication, even with its downsides, as not needed is not a option. So routers are a necessary evil. HT as a prisoner of our time and wasteful consumer model is not.

The response I am looking for is like the one I think the citizens of Atlanta (see above) wish they would have had. Question the assumptions and think about the consequences (examples are littered throughout this thread)of anything we do as a society before the options are gone.

So that I can also win a few votes: I think that Audiogon members contain the greatest concentration of this worlds last hope for a tomorrow that have ever walked the face of this planet or all the collective planets of at least our 3 nearest galaxies. We have to be pretty smart to afford all this stuff. Right. Well, ok....maybe some of us are just sneaky

Least I forget, here is the good-will saying for this hour: May all things wonderful and blissful carry you and everyone you touch for the rest of your life!:)

Is there a point to this?

Nanderson, you seem to shift topics everytime someone tries to pin you down. The common part of this thread, as I see it, is that you want to think your keen intellect has forced another cave-dweller into the light of self-introspection. It hasn't and it won't.

In fairness, I will admit that the readability of the thread was not enhanced by the fact that, due presumably to some quirk of people's election to go with in-line HTML or whatever, the fonts seemed to get larger and more colorful with each successive reply. Its hard to read when only two words fit on a line. Esp. when they are violet.

I think your original point was that most modern movies are bad/unwatchable. As with anything, there's a lot of drivel targeted at the lowest common denominator and some good quality stuff around the edges. I like the escapism of movies (even some of the drivel), and find that movies--like books or music--can generate some interesting conversation among friends. Do I need the latest greatest HT to enjoy movies? No. Does HT enhance my enjoyment of movies? Sure.

You then morph into the argument that HT is bad b/c of changing standards/planned obsolesence. Audio has its "flavor of the day" aspects too--CD, HDCD, DVD-A, SACD, MP3 and various sub-religions in component design. Why single out HT for criticism? Given that these marketing tricks also produce design advances, is the purist thing to do to listen to wax impressions on a gramophone or something? No thanks.

I'll skip the stuff about routers. Don't know, don't care.

Then, if I track correctly, the argument seems to go to the "unexamined life not being worth living" with some paranoid conspiracy theory stuff thrown in to boot. The defect seems to be you've lumped A'gon users into a class of people whose lives consist of slaving away for the man to buy the next fix in HT equipment, while blithely ignoring the world's real problems, in order to isolate/insulate ourselves. Bollocks. I remember an A'gon threat where people talked about their other interests--there are every variety of people here, from artists to race car drivers, to kayakers, to parents, etc.

In other words, don't stereotype me or us. I happen to like my HT and some movies made after Citizen Kane. As to the rest of my life, my compromises are different than yours. I'll go as far as saying I think mine are a *better* balance than yours, without knowing or caring what yours are. Guess you think yours are a better balance than mine, without knowing or caring what mine are.

So? Next topic please. Really.
Thanks for the complements! I appreciate it. To my knowledge no one has pinned me down except on diverted issues. If so, let me know about it. My original thought that it makes little sense to buy a ferrari if all you have is kerosene to run it. The next natural step in the insanity of HT is how useless the hardware is after a few years of manufacturers playing around with you. If you like to see $5000 turn into less than $1000 in less than a 6 years I guess for your balance of priorities is fine for you but not for me. I have no problem with Sony and Philipps/Pioneer going in the red over hi-end formats like SACD/DVD-Audio that audiophiles have yet to be hoodwinked into buying till the dust settles. I just wonder why the manufacturers have been so successful at the same format game with HT. Regarding conspiracy theory I do not need to. It is reality or have you not watch the ENRON hearings or head of Arthur Anderson testifying. Did I ever say Audiogon members are doing anything like you claim? I say someone is so please don't get defensive and certainly when it is not called for. I am saying someone is feeding this endless cycle and it is not the SACD/DVD-audio types whereever they exist be it on Audiogon, Fox news channel, or at Disney world. Chill.
I meant to say, no one has pinnned me down except to change things to diverted issues. I take it you think CEOs think about you in making decisions that will make them filthy rich. I guess you are right what was I thinking?
OK, call me a masochist, but I'll bite again.

As to your argument that today's software isn't worth investing in HT; I think we can agree to differ, but maybe you aren't looking in the right places. As with any artistic medium, different strokes for different folks. Its like saying the world of music isn't worth investing in 2CH b/c pop music is populated with inane female teen toy idols and insipid boy bands. Lots of good movies being noted in another HT thread--try watching some of those. Maybe you don't like any of them. Maybe others do, and maybe they believe the ability to see them over and over is worth the HT investment.

As to your argument that HT is a lousy investment, I did a quick scan of some HT gear (surround sound processors) versus 2CH gear (preamps) in the A'gon bluebook, restricting my comparisons to companies that made both in the same year. The trend is that (whoa!) generally, more expensive gear has a greater percentage depreciation. But, your point that HT gear is worth less is wrong--at most a couple of percentage points in the comparisons I did, and in at least one case (Classe), their 2CH preamp (CP-45) fared much worse than their processor of the same year (SSP-1) (45% of value, vs. 58% for the SSP-1).

Given that I see as much on SACD in the 2CH fora as I see about 7.1 in the HT fora, why do you believe HT users are more susceptible to leaping before things become established? Moreover, when your thread implies that I (and other A'gon) users are soft-mindedly being manipulated by mfrs/advertisers to make that leap and we were following like so many sheep, it seemed like an insulting stereotype to me. If that wasn't what you were implying, perhaps you could restate your point.

As far as the ENRON diversion goes, I fail to see what it has to do with HT. And, frankly, I haven't said anything about it, so to be paraphrased by you is, at best, rather disingenuous. If you really want it, I'll lay it out for you, even if it is irrelevant. I, rather cynically, believe that CEOs act in their best interest. Generally that self-interest is also impacted by fiduciary duties to shareholders, so increasing share value (i.e., caring about shareholders) is usually viewed by most CEOs as a good thing. Does it always work? No. Is ENRON a fiasco? Yes. What's the relevance to HT?

Don't congratulate yourself for being slippery. Making unsupported statements and then failing to engage on the merits doesn't make you a forensic genius.
First: Refrain from specific name calling it only weakens your point of view. You accuse me of specifically calling Audiogon'ers sheep. Not once did I! You seem to be pleading for an audience with emotional pleas to them to "get this guy see he does not like you" rather than sticking to a discourse. I suspect this is a quick way to end a thread and if that is your intent you may have succeeded. Isn't it just as likely I think Audiogon'ers think like me and all I am doing is wondering if they feel the same way? There is 2 sides to every coin, at least if you stay out of Vegas.

Now back on track: Somebody is being a sheep but who it is was not identified. I am only questioning the clear evidence of more HT processors being turned in faster than their 2ch preamp counter parts. Your selecting, at random or purposely, classe preamps, particularily the CP-45 is a little like comparing the value of a Toyota Camry to a Pontiac Grand Am. Classe makes fine gear but aside from a few models their preamps are not among that list. I am comparing a wide range of gear and value. I wonder if you can thing of just one HT processor that is 6-10 years old that is still in demand? Maybe there is, just a question.

Regarding SACD titles. Well of course there is more coming out now for the very reason I cite above. The SACD hardware is not selling like Sony wants and with their introduction of sub $1000 units they and others are putting SACD titles out to sell the hardware. Software and hardware sales are not always proportionately equal.

I was not sure what you meant by conspiracy theory. Hence my mentioning of ENRON. Maybe you were referring to something else. I can take a stab again at what you meant. Don't you think the HT community were reluctant to release 9 speaker requiring technology when most everyone's home living environment had 2 speakers. I am suggesting they are just playing with how far they can take the purchasing spiral. So far they seem not to have reached the limits of the American public (by the way, if all Audiogon is all Americans (check my threads that is who I refer to) then maybe you have a point. Please calm down before writing again life is too short to get upset over this. Or put another way, like a thread commentor above said, if you don't like the movie turn it off. Maybe that is best.

I see I left off the point about variety of movies. Of course there are good even excellent movies being put out. But it is rare that the best have the biggest budgets to support the 7.1 or whatever HT technology that would justify needing that level of expense on the hardware side. Several actors, I believe Robert Redford is among them, have complained about the limited door for creative ideas to get into Hollywood and more seems to be fashioned more with around safe formulas. Art and creativity go hand in hand. Engineering and formulas likewise go hand in hand. I argue most movies are engineered and more today than before. And those movies that are not engineered are not as likely to be equipped with the HT technology to exploit capabilities of HT equipment. I heard it once said of many things in life: Great ideas come when you are hungry not when you are fat and happy!
Once more into the breach.

Do you appreciate music more with a high end 2CH rig? I'd guess. Could you still appreciate music even if you didn't have a high end 2CH rig? I hope so. Do you listen to nothing but optimally recorded 2CH taking full advantage of spatial potential and dynamic range? God I hope not. Do I appreciate HT more with a high end HT rig? Sure. Do I have to have a high end rig to appreciate HT? No. Do all movies I see take full advantage of 5CH capabilities? No. Where's the difference?

Look, I did re-read the whole thread. Take your statement:

"birds of a feather flock together and tend not to challenge each other about alternative views. I would rather raise challenging questions about the validity of purchases to the very ones doing the purchases."

If you didn't intend to say A'gon readers are the problem, at least you can see how this could be misinterpreted?

As far as my citation of Classe, its not hand picked or purposefully cited for some nefarious reason. It was just an interesting and glaring difference. I'd hoped to avoid the kind of accusations you raised by sticking to the same company and year--Classe made both the CP-45 and the SST-1. In the 10 min. I wasted in the blue book, it wasn't the only company I looked at--checked ARC, Krell, and some others. Perfect apples to apples comparisons are pretty hard to come by, but at least I tried and didn't selectively edit bad results out--I even said I found HT gear was lower as percentage value by a couple of points or so. But, the difference is not "disposable technology" for HT versus "value long term investment" for 2CH. "Clear evidence" you say, and a "wide range of gear and value." What evidence? What range?

"Upset"? Hardly. At this point "bored" is more like it. It could have been an interesting thread. I'd like to hear what people would have to say about whether the prevalence of HT will change the way movies are made. Maybe 5CH equipment for moviemakers will become less expensive due to volume demand, techniques for 5CH will become better, and there will be more software out there that takes real advantage of the possibilities.
Much better dialog here! Thanks! Now regarding if I appreciate music on hi-end rig yep on the car radio yep, anywhere is fine. My choice of hi-end 2 channels has had no affect on the companies of boom boxes. My argument is that constantly changing the field of play by the big corps in HT does affect other companies and dramatically. The connection then becomes clear between tactics of globalization of anything. HT is limiting our options also by greating the idea in younger people's mine that sound from all directions is equal to good sound. To me anyway, that is the message from the TV ad and magazine ads. Discrete channels in SACD or whatever multichannel if it stays static and recordings are made well not just a lot of them could be real exciting but not if it becomes a monopoly. Regarding the birds and feathers stuff: A certain percentage of people will be in the feathers given the big audience of HT but I do not think it is a very big percentage on audiogon (and I am not saying this to win votes). But of those in the feathers I was wondering if they ever thought about the interconnectiveness of choices made today and possible conseqeunces.

I do think it is interesting to know if 5 or 50 channel HT will change the way movies are made and if it would be for the better. I believe HT as currently constructed in terms of the hardware and movies allowed to made to exploit it is greatly limiting our choices, perverting what is good sound to an audience that may never have an alternative viewpoint, is a great example of how large corps can limit the flow of money to a smaller sphere of players and the manufacturers of that equipment will hardly be worried about fair labor practices such as the likes of Audio Research need to adhere to. I am very dismayed that Americans not only fail to see the connection between issues but go out their way to avoid educating themselves. Nothing amplified this more than the rush to learn about the "outside" world than did 911. Quite a sorry state that monsters must be the motivating force and not the joy of being aware and, hence, alive.

Why are more than 50% of the posts on this thread by you, Nanderson? In fact, every time someone responds you have a couple of follow-ups that espouse the same positions. Anti-Bush, anti-corporate anything, anti-Hollywood, anti-Enron ( which is understandable), anti-SUV. Oh, I almost forgot, anti-home theater. Would the world truly be a better place if Americans rode bicycles into work (presumeably work would be somewhere other than an evil Fortune 500 company), watched only independent films recorded in glorious, full-range mono? Maybe we should carry our little red books into work as well! It's a good thing you don't have anything against color film - most film purists would tell you color was an evil marketing scheme by Technicolor and later crammed down our throats by Kodak when all REAL art was filmed in black and white! Let's not even talk about that evil gimmick called television which threatened to turn people into zombies - after all, only rich and powerful people/organizations/companies could afford to put their messages on television and radio. Surely this means everyone who sits in front of a TV becomes a mere corporate stooge, ready to march to the orders being broadcast by their corporate masters! And if I recall, it was those evil Republicans in the Eisenhower administration who concocted that plot to put fluoride in our water supply. Or was that the Soviets? So long ago, I don't remember. It hurts my brain too much to think. Guess it's time to chase my Zoloft with another beer. Gotta go, "Funniest Commercials You've Never Seen" is coming on soon and I can't miss it. I laugh right along with the laugh track but I find I can't help myself. God deliver us from this foresaken land! Cheers!
An important screening technique, Eds, to find the dramatic dropoff in value in HT processors that I did mention above. Check out the value of any of them once a new Format becomes the defacto standard that the old model does not have and can not be upgraded to. Regarding waste: Interestingly Free Speech Radio News ( reported today that electronics waste that is not wanted in the US is being exported in massive quantities to China where small children tear out wires, chips, heavy metals and other toxics and spread the parts around the country side and often burn the waste causing toxic emissions. In one area, that has been tested, the concentration of burnt waste by the roadside has leaked into the groundwater. The concentrations are so high, that even under China standards, bottled water has to be brought in to supply the local village.
I really enjoyed your thread! I do think there is more than an element of truth in your humor. Maybe you should go back to some of my threads to those "evil" propaganda links I refer to and at the same time if you are fortunate enough to have time to watch the ENRON hearings. I think you will find that our media owned by the corporations and for the corporations does not tell you half of what you should know to be an involved citizen in a free democracy and not just a consumer in a market place (if you get a chance listen to the "evil" BBC in the early morning as a different twist on the same things reported by AOL-Time Warner, General Electric/Westinghouse owned media). ENRON hearings clearly are questioning by repubs and dems alike (heck really if you listen to them you would assume that they are concerned that there is a time bomb waiting to happen at more than ENRON) the very underpinnings of our stock market system. Several repubs are, with tortured faces (an aside: actually I get a big kick out of the tortured faces, now this is great theater) seemed shocked at the apparent extent of the type of problem that brought down ENRON. Really have you listened to this? Repubs (I use them since they are suppose to be objective in this corporate stuff, right?)are pointing to apparent unbelievable conflict of interests at systemic level (not just ENRON, heck, that is whole point of the hearings is to learn if this is a bigger problem than ENRON). Everyone testifying saying that other corporate group hoodwinked my corporation so we are not to blame and visa versa. Now go back and look at the comedic dialog you give above and you will see just how funny it is because the best comedy is reality sometimes (albeit you have some things exaggerated for maximal comedic affect, none-the-less, you have a wonderful sense of humor).

On a simple point: Do I think Americans would be better off if they rode bicyles to work? Ah......let me think.......hmmmm........still thinking...................ah......YES at least if they can(however in most places it is impractical, in part due to the transportaton system that is maximized for every person to be driving a car or truck to get everything done.)! I do think using your body once in a while on a bike or walking would be great and even greater if made part of wider sustainable system that includes better public transportation system (even taken a trip by plane lately)! On Bikes again: In fact, if you research the facts the big corporations really do not as much employ us (in many cases literally and in other cases as a dramatic shift in where work actually is done for the corporations) as they employ people in China and other Asian places who actually do use bicycles to work. Over 10-million people in the US alone now do not even wear out tire rubber during at least part of their work life. They work from home during some or all of their work week. Maybe you should we ask the other side of the coin (95% of world does not live in the US) would we all be better off and all off if the working Chinese and Indian populations drove SUVs to work? Anyway, I take your general point is to liten up and do mindless stuff as a way to happiness. Believe me, we all do that and appreciate it. However, critical thinking is really a blast as well. I kind of think of The Who's "Won't Get Fooled Again" as a sort of anthem. I think it is a blast to be aware and vital! Heck (I like the word heck)the ENRON hearings even seem to say your 401K would be better off if more Americans questioned more than they do.

PS: I put the same question of this thread up in the preamp section with somewhat different reactions to that audience.
Treyhoss, your observation is right on target. Nanderson has found a bully pulpit, though one wishes he had more to say so that he would not feel compelled to repeat himself quite so often. I have suggested that he "drill down" from his fairly superficial economic/political analyses to more fundamental philosophical issues. Thus far his responses have been sarcastic and dismissive, perhaps reflecting a lack of understanding that there ARE more fundamental issues. But I continue to hope for the best.

Labels, labels, now that is a strong sign of a good argument. Speaking of repeating ones self maybe you could get the chief to quite repeating Evil every place he goes and talking in bumper sticker slogans as answers to complex questions. The issues are fundamental and at the core of what seems to make americans tick as a consumer culture and presumably what makes them the massively in credit card debt. What is superficial? I am almost afraid of what would be substantive? But this could be interesting, so go ahead.
PS: The Fox news channel cann't help you this time since all the repubs are my references.
PS: Why this is so relevant because it seems what we purchase as American is our biggest statement since we don't screen the benefits to others in guiding our children in career choice. It is all about all the stuff you will be able to buy to make you life "better" than we had. Of course, I am making this all up and it is all superficial and stuff we buy at any human or environmental cost in the short term is what really defines substance.
Sorry I am not often, if ever, up to normal grammatical standards. I usually write this stuff after a long day of running my own business that you may not find on the NASDAQ, yet.